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  #1  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:58 PM
Sawateam Sawateam is offline
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Default Fact or Fiction AR Pistols

If a California gun manufacturer/FFL wants to sell you an AR Pistol...

1. They can build it as a single-shot pistol and avoid the safe handgun roster.

2. They can DROS it to you, such that is born as a single-shot pistol.

3. Once you take possession of the gun, you can, or they for you, convert it to a gassed system with a fixed mag.

How many laws were broken here?

My answer is zero.

Please be courteous.
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:59 PM
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I courteously remember my first beer.
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  #3  
Old 11-21-2020, 1:20 PM
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Someone writing a book report?
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  #4  
Old 11-21-2020, 1:41 PM
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California has a 'safe' handgun roster so...
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  #5  
Old 11-21-2020, 1:45 PM
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It depends...
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  #6  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K001 View Post
California has a 'safe' handgun roster so...
So... single shot pistols are exempt from that roster.
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  #7  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWL View Post
Someone writing a book report?
Seems to be a ton of confusion around this, which is unfortunate because many in California aren’t aware of their rights in this regard.
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  #8  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TKM View Post
I courteously remember my first beer.
Funny how that works, I remember mine too. Coors Light, blech!
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  #9  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
It depends...
On?

The way my FFL explained this to me... there is no law that says you can’t alter your firearm in this manner. The law says you can’t convert a single-shot pistol into an assault weapon, but a fixed magazine pistol is not an assault weapon.
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
So... single shot pistols are exempt from that roster.
Nope.

Some Single-Shot pistols are exempt from the roster and some are not. You really need to check the statute before making such a claim.
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Old 11-21-2020, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Nope.

Some Single-Shot pistols are exempt from the roster and some are not. You really need to check the statute before making such a claim.
PM’d you.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
You really need to check the statute before making such a claim.
Why do some folks feel the need to condescend? This is a discussion.
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Old 11-21-2020, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
So... single shot pistols are exempt from that roster.
Editing for the sake of RickD “some” single shots are exempt, which has nothing to do with the larger topic here.
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:03 PM
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It seems to me, in my opinion, that making a semi-auto handgun from a single shot handgun is "creating an unsafe (not on the roster) handgun".

Quote:
Alterations of a single shot pistol (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun. See California Penal Code sections 31900-31910 for the definition of unsafe handguns and 32000(a) for more information on illegal acts involving unsafe handguns.
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/certified-handguns/search
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:05 PM
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^^ That is my understanding as well.
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  #16  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
It seems to me, in my opinion, that making a semi-auto handgun from a single shot handgun is "creating an unsafe (not on the roster) handgun".



https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/certified-handguns/search
PM’d you.
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
It seems to me, in my opinion, that making a semi-auto handgun from a single shot handgun is "creating an unsafe (not on the roster) handgun".
This is the argument that will be made, by taking a single shot pistol and making it into a semi auto you are manufacturing an unsafe handgun. Could you be blending in the idea of the Franklin Armory CA7, which has a long and extensive thread? This pistol is different because it is actually on the "not unsafe" roster. So converting this to semi auto is not the same as violating the PC related to creating an unsafe handgun, at least that is the argument for the legality of doing so.

This has been discussed in various varieties over the years since SSE 1 and 2 died. I think the consensus is that you cannot convert a single shot, break top, otherwise legal, but not on roster pistol to semi-auto without going afoul of the roster PC.

Someone will be along shortly to lay out all of the PC and explain in plain English, or correct me sternly if I am mistaken.
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
^^ That is my understanding as well.
PM’d you.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
PM’d you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
Why do some folks feel the need to condescend? This is a discussion.
PM replied to, making the same observations as did Flintlock Tom and others.

No condescension intended, apologies if you inferred any.
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2020, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlock Tom View Post
It seems to me, in my opinion, that making a semi-auto handgun from a single shot handgun is "creating an unsafe (not on the roster) handgun".



https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/certified-handguns/search
Quote:
Originally Posted by AregularGuy View Post
This is the argument that will be made, by taking a single shot pistol and making it into a semi auto you are manufacturing an unsafe handgun. Could you be blending in the idea of the Franklin Armory CA7, which has a long and extensive thread? This pistol is different because it is actually on the "not unsafe" roster. So converting this to semi auto is not the same as violating the PC related to creating an unsafe handgun, at least that is the argument for the legality of doing so.

This has been discussed in various varieties over the years since SSE 1 and 2 died. I think the consensus is that you cannot convert a single shot, break top, otherwise legal, but not on roster pistol to semi-auto without going afoul of the roster PC.

Someone will be along shortly to lay out all of the PC and explain in plain English, or correct me sternly if I am mistaken.
Tom gives a very good summary of the California DOJ position. It's important to note that the DOJ position is based on a very broad interpretation of the law and is currently untested in court. But there is a basis in the law for their position, and they have the ability to file criminal charges. Those that would argue that it is completely legal to make such alterations lack any ability to dismiss such charges.

I've given well-deserved credit to the Franklin Armory for their efforts to exploit oversights in California's drafting of statutes, and to hold the state accountable to the statutes, but I also have to observe that nearly every effort to exploit an oversight seems to result in the revision of the affected statute. The SSE is a good example.

The Single-Shot exemption still exists in law, but has been made more restrictive. The key change is that a weapon that was previously a semi-auto cannot be converted to Single-Shot in order to permit transfer.
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  #21  
Old 11-21-2020, 4:19 PM
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Single shot bolt action is roster exempts meaning you must pull the charging handle back every time to fire the weapon

Single shot break action is roster exempt. You must separate your upper and lower every time you fire the weapon

Both of the above must have never been configured in semi auto configuration prior to being in single shot break/bolt action

CA DOJ which is a law enforcement agency with their own prosecutors have determined that if a private individual modified their single shot break action/ bolt action pistol to a semi auto, they have “manufactured” a new weapon and every time a weapon is manufactured, it needs to be evaluated of whether or not it is roster exempt or not.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2020, 4:36 PM
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CADOJ is your better source than a FFL. My PMs aren’t active by the way.
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2020, 4:38 PM
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I've been into this stuff for a long time. This is a seemingly grey area that confuses me. I have no darned idea.

I do know that simply finding an FFL that is willing to transfer an AR pistol right now is not easy.
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2020, 5:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
If a California gun manufacturer/FFL wants to sell you an AR Pistol...

1. They can build it as a single-shot pistol and avoid the safe handgun roster.

2. They can DROS it to you, such that is born as a single-shot pistol.

3. Once you take possession of the gun, you can, or they for you, convert it to a gassed system with a fixed mag.

How many laws were broken here?

My answer is zero.

Please be courteous.
1. A CA 07-FFL can legally make a dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol or a dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistol.

Dimensionally compliant = minimum 6" barrel length and minimum 10.5" overall length.

Single-shot = cartridge is loaded/unloaded directly into/from the firearm's chamber and has a fixed 0 round magazine/sled that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or is permanently attached in the firearm's magazine well.

2. ATF 4473 = handgun. CA DROS = pistol, single-shot

3. In order to remain CA legal, dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol and dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistol must remain configured as such.

Modifying it to be a manually operated repeating pistol = making a "new" unsafe handgun. [PC 32000(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 10 or less round magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun. [PC 32000(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 11+ round magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun and an assault weapon. [PC 32000(a) and 30600(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun and an assault weapon. [PC 32000(a) and 30600(a)]
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Old 11-21-2020, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post

3. In order to remain CA legal, dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistol and dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistol must remain configured as such.

Modifying it to be a manually operated repeating pistol = making a "new" unsafe handgun. [PC 32000(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 10 or less round magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun. [PC 32000(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 11+ round magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun and an assault weapon. [PC 32000(a) and 30600(a)]
Modifying it to be a semi-auto pistol that does not have a fixed magazine = making a "new" unsafe handgun and an assault weapon. [PC 32000(a) and 30600(a)]
Quiet, were these PC already in effect during the time of Sse 1.0? Or did they come into effect wh the same time that exemption was changed to require frame to be “never semi auto” ?
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2020, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
Seems to be a ton of confusion around this, which is unfortunate because many in California aren’t aware of their rights in this regard.
Californians, like all Americans, have a right to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately, they also have a moderately-despotic government (once you factor in all the abuses and not just gun-related abuses) that infringes on those rights like the big meathead and the beach kicks sand into the wimp's face.

Technically speaking every person on the planet has the same rights, the difference is to what degree those rights are infringed upon.
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2020, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by naz View Post
Quiet, were these PC already in effect during the time of Sse 1.0? Or did they come into effect wh the same time that exemption was changed to require frame to be “never semi auto” ?
Does not apply to SSE (pre-2015).
Only applies to SSE2 (post-2014).


Under SSE, the requirements were: (01-01-2000 to 12-31-2014)
1. Minimum barrel length of 6".
2. Minimum overall length of 10.5".
3. Must be single-shot*.

*single-shot = cartridge is loaded/unloaded directly into/from the firearm's chamber and has a fixed 0 round magazine/sled that can be removed with a tool.


Under SSE2, the requirements are: (01-01-2015 to current)
1. Minimum barrel length of 6".
2. Minimum overall length of 10.5".
3. Must be single-shot**.
4. Must operate as a bolt-action or as a break-open.
5. Can never have been semi-auto.

**single-shot = cartridge is loaded/unloaded directly into/from the firearm's chamber and has a fixed 0 round magazine/sled that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or is permanently attached in the firearm's magazine well.
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Last edited by Quiet; 11-21-2020 at 5:43 PM..
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2020, 6:34 PM
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Franklin Armory has a bolt-action repeater on roster, the CA7(11/13) - this is not to be confused with a roster exempt, dimensionally compliant, single-shot pistol.

When an FFL sells you an AR lower, and DROS’s it as a single shot pistol, that is circumventing the roster, which means it cannot be converted into an “unsafe pistol” (aka: anything other than a single shot). The Franklin Armory is by virtue of being roster approved, not held to the constraints of modification.

As I said before, you may have missed out on the “nudge nudge, wink wink” portion of the FFL transactions that will DROS a stripped lower as a single shot pistol. They informed you, what you do afterwards is not their business .
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
So... single shot pistols are exempt from that roster.
The owner who converts it to semi would be manufacturing an unsafe handgun, a misdemeanor. This "loophole" was closed several years ago. You're late to the party. PC 32000. Nice try though.
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:24 PM
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The laws regarding these are so convoluted. You never really know what's going on
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Old 11-22-2020, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
If a California gun manufacturer/FFL wants to sell you an AR Pistol...

1. They can build it as a single-shot pistol and avoid the safe handgun roster.

2. They can DROS it to you, such that is born as a single-shot pistol.

3. Once you take possession of the gun, you can, or they for you, convert it to a gassed system with a fixed mag.

4. Meet Joey "The Mule" behind 7-eleven to complete purchase.

How many laws were broken here?

My answer is zero.

Please be courteous.
Talk to Joey. He's a good guy.
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If some level of government had that information, what would they do with it? How would having that info benefit public safety? How would it benefit law enforcement?
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Old 11-22-2020, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
PM’d you.
So what was the point of this thread? You laid out the questions/statements then wait for people to give you the counter argument. Yet you pm and say, "No, you're wrong because someone very respectable said it was ok". Are you asking rhetorically or do you actually want to hear about the potential legalities of the topic?
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  #33  
Old 11-22-2020, 1:41 PM
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Maybe he doesn’t consider RICKD427 or Quiet to be authoritative enough?

Haha, AregularGuy, I had to look up who Stronzo Bestiale was.

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Old 11-22-2020, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Maybe he doesn’t consider RICKD427 or Quiet to be authoritative enough?

Haha, AregularGuy, I had to look up who Stronzo Bestiale was.

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  #35  
Old 11-22-2020, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrotuniformlima View Post
( serious question )

Is there a definition of "manufacture" anywhere in the PC or does the DOJ just get to define it as they see fit?
Penal Code 29180
(a) For purposes of this chapter, “manufacturing” or “assembling” a firearm means to fabricate or construct a firearm, or to fit together the component parts of a firearm to construct a firearm.
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Old 11-22-2020, 2:10 PM
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OK - so I found this in the 80% nonsense
Quote:
29180.
(a) For purposes of this chapter, “manufacturing” or “assembling” a firearm means to fabricate or construct a firearm, or to fit together the component parts of a firearm to construct a firearm.
Converting or modifying is neither manufacturing or assembling.

So where does it say I can't modify a firearm ? PC 32000 (a) surely doesn't.
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Old 11-22-2020, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrotuniformlima View Post
OK - so I found this in the 80% nonsense


Converting or modifying is neither manufacturing or assembling.

So where does it say I can't modify a firearm ? PC 32000 (a) surely doesn't.
And this is where CA DOJ needs to be sued, so step up and be a test case.

Because, they say/enforce, assemblying parts onto a SSE2 to be considered "manufacturing" a new unsafe handgun.
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Old 11-22-2020, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrotuniformlima View Post
OK - so I found this in the 80% nonsense


Converting or modifying is neither manufacturing or assembling.

So where does it say I can't modify a firearm ? PC 32000 (a) surely doesn't.
I spoke with a lawyer about this and the long and short of it is that the interpretation you have is not incorrect. It’s just not a tested interpretation.

His point to me was, what do you gain and what hassles could you potentially go through, and how do you feel about that risk benefit trade off
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Old 11-22-2020, 3:13 PM
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4. Do this at your own risk. We thank you for being the test case

People who are well versed in this do not say for certain either way. Not certain YES, not certain NO. I think they want to say YES, it is legal, but dare not for liability reasons. But IMHO, the left will get you if they want to get you, no matter if there is, or is not a law in the book. After all, they stole Presidential elections with much less.

Let us know how that work out for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawateam View Post
If a California gun manufacturer/FFL wants to sell you an AR Pistol...

1. They can build it as a single-shot pistol and avoid the safe handgun roster.

2. They can DROS it to you, such that is born as a single-shot pistol.

3. Once you take possession of the gun, you can, or they for you, convert it to a gassed system with a fixed mag.

How many laws were broken here?

My answer is zero.

Please be courteous.
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  #40  
Old 11-22-2020, 3:33 PM
foxtrotuniformlima foxtrotuniformlima is offline
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
And this is where CA DOJ needs to be sued, so step up and be a test case.

Because, they say/enforce, assemblying parts onto a SSE2 to be considered "manufacturing" a new unsafe handgun.
Has anyone been charged for doing such things?
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