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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles. |
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#41
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Sig: You obviously have never held anything in your hands that "came alive" when you picked it up. Not talking meat here either.
There are many things which induce a response known as "Tactile Gratification." when handled. Come on, you have to have experienced this somewhere during your lifetime? Do you have a favorite Screwdriver or Wrench? Some tool that gives you pleasure when you pick it up? Have you ever held a really nice custom Knife? Have you ever picked up something that you hadn't seen before that impressed you so much, that you said,,, OH Yeah ! Maybe it was alive? Have you ever handled a $100,000 shotgun? Almost all of them are alive, and you can feel it when you pick them up. All of these things either by the act of physically making them or designing them have one thing in common. Someone put alot of themselves into the product. They put part of their souls into that product, and if you are perceptive enough, you can feel it when you pick it up. This is nothing new and has essentially been going on since the beginning of time. My explanation of what makes long guns feel alive is all about how they handle. I explained that in detail. Good Luck finding your perfect gun. Randy
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Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch. Rule #2 Whatever they accuse you of, they are already doing. Rule #3 Liberals lie about anything no matter how insignificant. Rule #4 If all else fails, they call you a Racist! It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It is how well you do what you don't know how to do. www.buchananprecisionmachine.com |
#43
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My Snap-on ratcheting screwdriver from about 1990.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#45
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I found another possible candidate rummaging around in a Bass Pro Shops. A Kimber Mountain Ascent. Under 5 pounds w/out scope. !!
https://www.eurooptic.com/kimber-mou...n-3000763.aspx It's built on a pre-64 Model 70 design, so it's got a 90 degree bolt lift, which I don't like. And being a Mauser controlled-feed design it's not as smooth as a Tikka. Other than that, it's a jewel. The bolt stop is up on the left side of the action, like on a custom. It looks like it's stainless, but I think it's regular steel with a coating. The comb seemed like it would be high enough for a scope. A Tikka T3x I played with was definitely too low for me. I could easily use it with irons if the rifle had them. |
#46
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barrel twist
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I won't be wronged I won't be insulted And I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.....John Wayne |
#48
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There is no need for it to work with 190gr VLD's...
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#49
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Cooper's scout rifle is NOT a general-purpose .308. It's a special-purpose .308. As such, it has lots of design elements which make it inferior as a general-purpose .308 in order to be a better scout .308. Since any scout-type .308 will be more expensive than a comparable general-purpose .308, you'd have to want the scout features. And you don't.
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#50
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I am genuinely curious. |
#51
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In actual fact, I read a bunch of things on the internet. But when you think about it, it has to be the case. You can take issue with the claim that a Winchester 70 with a standard scope setup is in some sense "general" (although it's way more common, or we wouldn't have Cooper asking for something else), but it must be the case that the Scout is better for some things and worse for others. My understanding is that if there's anything the Scout is optimized for, it's defense against large, dangerous animals, such as you might encounter on your many African safaris. It's not optimal for actually shooting the animals you actually came to hunt, although with modern technology it will work for that. But your actual hunting rifle can be carried by one of your native coolies and retrieved as needed, whereas the Scout could be needed at a moment's notice in the event you piss off some hippos or something. That's why it has to be very light, very handy, preserve peripheral vision when aiming, and so on. |
#52
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FWIW, proceedings from the first scout rifle conference. Probably a good idea to capture a local copy of the images if you haven't already.
http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=1276.0 example page, overview. -- Michael |
#53
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You misunderstand. The "scout rifle" was never intended to serve as a dangerous game weapon. Cooper's general-purpose/scout rifle was to be of a short action and best chambered in .308 Winchester, for defense while scouting alone and/or for taking game up to 200 kilos or up to 500 lbs, depending on the time of Cooper's notes. A dangerous game rifle that Cooper would use would be (Edit: minimum,-) .375 caliber. Many jurisdictions in Africa enforce a "caliber floor" of .375. The short-lived 376 Steyr used shortened 9.3 X 74 brass with standard bullets used in the 375 H&H...
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. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked Last edited by 200Apples; 09-16-2018 at 8:28 PM.. Reason: correction |
#54
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I stand by my implication that the Scout was, in a sense, designed more for defense when scouting than taking game between N and 500 lbs. If you primarily planned to use a rifle for taking said game, and did not expect defense to be a significant issue, you'd probably be better off with a more conventional rifle. Theoretically, even if you primarily planned to hunt and not scout, you might want a Scout rifle because you expected to need a Scout in the future (upcoming safari, post-nuclear survival, whatever), and you wanted to practice using the scout as well as bagging some game. That makes sense. But it didn't seem like this was on OP's mind. And to my mind, you get good with your model 70 and you should be good enough with a Scout when the bombs actually do fall, whereupon you can just loot one from the glowing wreckage of your local gun store (be sure to bring a decent-caliber handgun in case you encounter any particularly aggressive mutants). |
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From "To ride,..." by Cooper. ( Buy it if you don't have it already! )
https://www.amazon.com/Ride-Shoot-St.../dp/0873649737 THE GENERAL-PURPOSE RIFLE -- Michael |
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I find the timing of this thread interesting. Having just got back from school, we conversed at length over dinner and in class the meaning of "general purpose", and how the historical scouts likely carried themselves when deeply imbedded, and what "general purpose" likely meant to them at the time.
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#57
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This topic is interesting to me as an academic exercise. I think Cooper obviously had far more experience in rifle shooting and hunting than most, and that influenced his development of the Scout Rifle concept. This is why I think the "Scout" rifle is less a scout rifle in the context of a military-oriented scout whose primary role is reconnaissance, and not combat, and is instead more of a "quick handling, snapshot-capable hunting firearm" rather than "lightweight combat rifle suitable for long-distance, foot-mobile reconnaissance missions." I think, if you look historically at men who used firearms in their daily lives, and who decidedly were NOT members of a large, organized military unit like a troop of horse mounted cavalry, they generally favored arms that gave them a firepower advantage. Repeating revolvers, repeating lever-action rifles, etc. were perhaps less powerful in their individual shots than single-shot muzzle-loaders and even other breech-loaded, cartridge single shots, but in a situation requiring more shots, you could fling more lead. And, in a situation where you needed only one, well-placed shot - as in the context of hunting game, well, a repeater capable of shooting lots of lead could also serve as a capable hunting rifle. Not so much the other way around.
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"Two dead?!? HOW?!?" [sigh] "Bullets, mortar fire, heavy artillery salvos, terminal syphilis, bad luck --- the usual things, Captain." Last edited by 23 Blast; 09-17-2018 at 7:16 AM.. |
#58
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Upon further research, I found that the M24 is 1 in 12. Good enough for military snipers, good enough for me.
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#59
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To find all the stuff I want on one rifle it seems like I would have to <GASP> go to a custom rifle maker. Sure don't wanna do that so I might have to compromise. |
#60
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Stand all you wish, but since you seem to be unclear as to what constitutes a dangerous game rifle, your opinion in this matter has less credibility, sorry to say. Please don't take that personally. I don't know you. One really has to "get" what fuels the desire for a scout rifle: a rifle that is of a certain minimum power (which might be .30-06, but modern .308 loadings match those ballistics, and permit chambering in shorter, lighter-weight actions), and also a rifle that is "friendly". Most traditional hunting rifles are less friendly to handle and carry all day than a scout rifle is. And those who have remained open-minded, and who by a leap of faith (let's call it) have actually hunted with a rifle that is considered a "scout" are usually, and surprisingly, delighted with the rifle. I do not wish to argue with you over these things (forgive me), as they are mostly subjective, while, yes; there are physical criteria for a scout rifle, one either embraces the concept, or one does not. It appears you do not, and that's okay. Quote:
I know you've asked this of our esteemed colleague splithoof, but, if I may... the school is Gunsite Academy, the school which Jeff Cooper established in the late 1970s. For some people, there is no other school. Cooper's concept of the military scout was as follows: Quote:
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. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#61
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The Steyr Scout uses a 5-round dbm, and there is a place in the buttstock for a second magazine. At the time I purchased my Ruger GSR, the Steyr was just beyond my budget. I may purchase a Steyr in the future, but for now my Ruger serves my need for this kind of rifle very well.
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#62
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Thank you Apples, you have answered it very well.
I usually make two trips to Gunsite annually, and preferably with a group of my fellow students who take private tutorials, in which we choose the subject matter, and how long we wish the training to be. For this past week's (seven full days of training) adventure, Scout Rifle was the main subject for three intensive days. All of the participants are dedicated riflemen (and one awesomely talented lady); and a number are very much into the historical aspects of all things military, including "scouting" from earlier times. |
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#65
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10-4.
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#66
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The minimum caliber of any scout rifle criteria is .308, although there exists a pretty nifty little CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 X 39... which may equal the ballistics of the .30 WCF (..30-30). The fact remains that for a general purpose rifle, Cooper's ideal was .30-06 or as was noted earlier, modern .308 loadings.
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#67
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You wouldn't even need the detachable box magazine system. It's quicker to put a stripper clip in than it is to change magazines.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. Last edited by ar15barrels; 09-17-2018 at 1:52 PM.. |
#68
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Where it was most interesting was in the indoor "shoot house" simulators. |
#69
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It was just a lark, and at the time I went back to elbow-supported paper punching at 100 yards. Please post a picture here of your Brockman-modified CZ? or better yet, post a thread on the subject. What a terrific piece, that.
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#70
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sigstroker, please forgive the detour, but since the internet is always more fun with pictures, here are a couple of cellphone photos of my Ruger and my CZ.
I have since restocked the Ruger with a composite stock, reducing it's weight to 7 lbs loaded (5 rounds of 168 grain jacketed) and no telescope...
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#72
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Until you can utilize a good tutorial, I can host then post an image or two for you, on your behalf, with crediting your username. I have sent you my email in PM.
__________________
. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
#73
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divert_fuse
I suggest you read this, then we can actually have this discussion. https://www.amazon.com/Scout-Rifle-S...ut+rifle+study For every nugget of information on the internet that is accurate regarding the scout rifle concept, there are mountains of misunderstanding and misinformation. The scout rifle is in fact a general purpose rifle. Everything that went into it was thought by Cooper to aid in ease of use (mounting rifle, aiming rifle, shooting the rifle) thus making it easier to actually achieve first shot hits. And to make carrying the rifle comfortable. Richard sums it up perfectly and I am paraphrasing here...the scout rifle concept is about putting together a rifle for when you know you will need one, but not sure for what. And that describes general purpose to a T. Quote:
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The snap shot and being able to keep both eyes open while using a scope had a lot more to do with it than being able to use stripper clips. as to which is faster on the reload...kind of moot as no one is making rifles that use them anymore. the forward mounted scope isn't even a requirement. Having the option is, using it isn't. |
#74
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__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#75
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I will try and remember that. I replied as I did because there are a lot of people out there that think the forward mounting is about using stripper clips, and as such dismiss the option and possibly miss out on a benefit.
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#76
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Besides, I thought Cooper liked .35 Whelen and only later relented on .308 because it was popular. |
#77
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If I thought I needed a Scout (I don't) it would be a Mk18 type with 11" barrel, my 1-6x Vortex on top, and my YHM silencer on the end. It would be shorter and handier than a bolt Scout, and come in very close to the target weight even with the can. I'm never going to Africa, or even Texas, so any critter I'm going to meet will fall to 20 rounds of 5.56. That Alaska guy on tv kills grizzlies with his M16. I'm not worried about hunting regs because we're talking about TEOTWAIKI, right? |
#78
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The more you move down the path of AR 15, short barrel, silencer... it just shows your (in my opinion) not getting it. What you describe is specialized and moving in the opposite direction of general purpose. Scout rifles are about general purpose...I know I NEED a rifle, but I don't know for what. While the list of attributes that make up Cooper's scout rifle are just one way to achieve a general purpose rifle. ALL general purpose rifles will share some attributes in common. One of which will be caliber capable of more than what 223 can do. 223 is a small varmint round that got pressed into military service, and thanks to CMP/high power competition has a some heavier bullet options, but NOTHING that would fill the roll of general purpose. General purpose rifles (or even Coopers scout rifles) are NOT about TEOTWAIKI fantasies. They are about having a practical, real world rifle that will meet just about any real world, non fantasy need, with the exception of a few specialized tasks. You can choose an AR, and you can think you have a general purpose rifle. But try taking that rifle to most parts of the world. not going to happen. But a bolt action, completely different story. But lets say there were for a moment. that you feel it is ok to have a rifle that takes 20 rounds to drop something...shows you not only don't get general purpose...you also don't get what it really means if the world we know ends, particularly on a large scale. Quote:
I know he loved the 30.06 and is on record as saying it was the best general purpose option out there (his opinion). But he "settled" on 308 for because you can get 30.06 performance out of modern 308 ammunition in the short action bolt action rifles, combined with near world wide availability of ammunition. Last edited by 1859sharps; 09-17-2018 at 7:56 PM.. |
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#80
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The scout rifle is not a dangerous game rifle, although the Norwegian Gov't seems to think .308 acceptable defense against polar bear. Some of the problem here in this thread is from the lack of understanding the chamberings and construction of a dangerous game rifle versus the various, specialized chamberings of most typically-American hunting rifles suitable for use on nearly all game indigenous to North America...
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. "Get a proper holster, and go hot. The End." - SplitHoof NRA Lifetime | Avatar courtesy Elon Musk's Twitter User SomthingWicked |
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