Tikka CTR or Steyr Scout?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sig: You obviously have never held anything in your hands that "came alive" when you picked it up. Not talking meat here either.

There are many things which induce a response known as "Tactile Gratification." when handled.

Come on, you have to have experienced this somewhere during your lifetime?

Do you have a favorite Screwdriver or Wrench? Some tool that gives you pleasure when you pick it up?

Have you ever held a really nice custom Knife?

Have you ever picked up something that you hadn't seen before that impressed you so much, that you said,,, OH Yeah ! Maybe it was alive?

Have you ever handled a $100,000 shotgun? Almost all of them are alive, and you can feel it when you pick them up.

All of these things either by the act of physically making them or designing them have one thing in common. Someone put alot of themselves into the product. They put part of their souls into that product, and if you are perceptive enough, you can feel it when you pick it up.

This is nothing new and has essentially been going on since the beginning of time.

My explanation of what makes long guns feel alive is all about how they handle. I explained that in detail.

Good Luck finding your perfect gun.

Randy

[sigstroker]

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

Do you have a favorite Screwdriver or Wrench?

My Snap-on ratcheting screwdriver from about 1990.

[GW]

Sorry, for the delay.
My Steyr is .308
I'll see if I can dredge up some photos

[sigstroker]

I found another possible candidate rummaging around in a Bass Pro Shops. A Kimber Mountain Ascent. Under 5 pounds w/out scope. !!

https://www.eurooptic.com/kimber-mou...n-3000763.aspx

It's built on a pre-64 Model 70 design, so it's got a 90 degree bolt lift, which I don't like. And being a Mauser controlled-feed design it's not as smooth as a Tikka. Other than that, it's a jewel. The bolt stop is up on the left side of the action, like on a custom. It looks like it's stainless, but I think it's regular steel with a coating. The comb seemed like it would be high enough for a scope. A Tikka T3x I played with was definitely too low for me. I could easily use it with irons if the rifle had them.

[Gunsrruss]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

I found another possible candidate rummaging around in a Bass Pro Shops. A Kimber Mountain Ascent. Under 5 pounds w/out scope. !!

https://www.eurooptic.com/kimber-mou...n-3000763.aspx

It's built on a pre-64 Model 70 design, so it's got a 90 degree bolt lift, which I don't like. And being a Mauser controlled-feed design it's not as smooth as a Tikka. Other than that, it's a jewel. The bolt stop is up on the left side of the action, like on a custom. It looks like it's stainless, but I think it's regular steel with a coating. The comb seemed like it would be high enough for a scope. A Tikka T3x I played with was definitely too low for me. I could easily use it with irons if the rifle had them.

It must be me, but I'm not going to pay $1800.00 for a rifle with a 1/12 twist

[sigstroker]

Might be an old model, an old specification, or a flat out wrong specification. The Kimber site shows the current model with 1 in 9 twist.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Gunsrruss

It must be me, but I'm not going to pay $1800.00 for a rifle with a 1/12 twist

It's a 308 hunting rifle.
There is no need for it to work with 190gr VLD's...

[divert_fuse]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

I just want a general purpose .308.

Cooper's scout rifle is NOT a general-purpose .308. It's a special-purpose .308. As such, it has lots of design elements which make it inferior as a general-purpose .308 in order to be a better scout .308. Since any scout-type .308 will be more expensive than a comparable general-purpose .308, you'd have to want the scout features. And you don't.

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by divert_fuse

Cooper's scout rifle is NOT a general-purpose .308. It's a special-purpose .308. As such, it has lots of design elements which make it inferior as a general-purpose .308 in order to be a better scout .308. Since any scout-type .308 will be more expensive than a comparable general-purpose .308, you'd have to want the scout features. And you don't.

how did you come to this conclusion? What do you consider "general purpose" features and what do you consider "scout" features?

I am genuinely curious.

[divert_fuse]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

What do you consider "general purpose" features and what do you consider "scout" features?

Basically, Cooper's desiderata are the scout features. A typical bolt-action hunting rifle with a typical scope setup are the general features.

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

how did you come to this conclusion?

In actual fact, I read a bunch of things on the internet. But when you think about it, it has to be the case. You can take issue with the claim that a Winchester 70 with a standard scope setup is in some sense "general" (although it's way more common, or we wouldn't have Cooper asking for something else), but it must be the case that the Scout is better for some things and worse for others.

My understanding is that if there's anything the Scout is optimized for, it's defense against large, dangerous animals, such as you might encounter on your many African safaris. It's not optimal for actually shooting the animals you actually came to hunt, although with modern technology it will work for that. But your actual hunting rifle can be carried by one of your native coolies and retrieved as needed, whereas the Scout could be needed at a moment's notice in the event you piss off some hippos or something. That's why it has to be very light, very handy, preserve peripheral vision when aiming, and so on.

[elSquid]

FWIW, proceedings from the first scout rifle conference. Probably a good idea to capture a local copy of the images if you haven't already.


http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=1276.0



example page, overview.





-- Michael

[200Apples]

My understanding is that if there's anything the Scout is optimized for, it's defense against large, dangerous animals, such as you might encounter on your many African safaris. It's not optimal for actually shooting the animals you actually came to hunt, although with modern technology it will work for that. But your actual hunting rifle can be carried by one of your native coolies and retrieved as needed, whereas the Scout could be needed at a moment's notice in the event you piss off some hippos or something. That's why it has to be very light, very handy, preserve peripheral vision when aiming, and so on.

You misunderstand. The "scout rifle" was never intended to serve as a dangerous game weapon.

Cooper's general-purpose/scout rifle was to be of a short action and best chambered in .308 Winchester, for defense while scouting alone and/or for taking game up to 200 kilos or up to 500 lbs, depending on the time of Cooper's notes.

A dangerous game rifle that Cooper would use would be (Edit: minimum,-) .375 caliber. Many jurisdictions in Africa enforce a "caliber floor" of .375. The short-lived 376 Steyr used shortened 9.3 X 74 brass with standard bullets used in the 375 H&H...

[divert_fuse]

Originally Posted by 200Apples

You misunderstand. The "scout rifle" was never intended to serve as a dangerous game weapon.

Cooper's general-purpose/scout rifle was to be of a short action and best chambered in .308 Winchester, for defense while scouting alone and/or for taking game up to 200 kilos or up to 500 lbs, depending on the time of Cooper's notes.

A dangerous game rifle that Cooper would use would be (Edit: minimum,-) .375 caliber. Many jurisdictions in Africa enforce a "caliber floor" of .375. The short-lived 376 Steyr used shortened 9.3 X 74 brass with standard bullets used in the 375 H&H...

Okay, maybe. In case it wasn't clear, I was being a bit flippant there. But my primary point was that it's designed to do something different from what a more typical .308 bolt gun is designed to do. So you should get one if plan to do those things, and not if you plan to do what most people do with most .308 bolt guns.

I stand by my implication that the Scout was, in a sense, designed more for defense when scouting than taking game between N and 500 lbs. If you primarily planned to use a rifle for taking said game, and did not expect defense to be a significant issue, you'd probably be better off with a more conventional rifle.

Theoretically, even if you primarily planned to hunt and not scout, you might want a Scout rifle because you expected to need a Scout in the future (upcoming safari, post-nuclear survival, whatever), and you wanted to practice using the scout as well as bagging some game. That makes sense. But it didn't seem like this was on OP's mind. And to my mind, you get good with your model 70 and you should be good enough with a Scout when the bombs actually do fall, whereupon you can just loot one from the glowing wreckage of your local gun store (be sure to bring a decent-caliber handgun in case you encounter any particularly aggressive mutants).

[elSquid]

From "To ride,..." by Cooper. ( Buy it if you don't have it already! )
https://www.amazon.com/Ride-Shoot-St.../dp/0873649737

THE GENERAL-PURPOSE RIFLE

The progress of modern technology has been curiously uneven. We have conquered polio and smallpox, but not the common cold. We have landed on the moon, but we cannot move conveniently around our cities. We build word processors, but not a satisfactory writing stylus. And while certain varieties of missilery have taken great strides, little of importance has been done to improve the rifles with which we greeted the turn of the century.

Well hold on now! We have semi-automatic actions and telescope sights, haven't we?

Of course we have, and these improvements do deserve consideration, but the first matters only in the military mode and the second is still only partly understood. Rapid repeat shots do little for the individual rifleman, whose primary object is to hit with his first shot, and glass sights have, in a sense, retrogressed since the pioneering efforts of Rudolph Noske and some others in the 1920's.

When I first went after big game in 1937 I used a rifle very similar in style, weight, size, practical accuracy and ballistic potential to one that might be bought over the counter today. It worked very well (and it still does) so we might well ask why anyone should wish to improve upon it. This is like asking why we should improve on anything that works. (If an outhouse works, why install indoor plumbing?) The fact is that we improve things for three reasons: to make our lives more convenient, to gratify our curiosity, and to make money. These motives have not conspicuously affected riflery until quite recently. We have dwelt too heavily on cartridge variation, forgetting that all modern cartridges will do very well if they are shot well. In a sense we have concentrated so hard on the aircraft that we have ignored the carrier. It is only in the last ten years or so that rifle design has come alive, but now it has
(though only a few realize it) and we stand on the brink of a new era.

Any instrument is built for a purpose - presumably. What is it for? Certainly we see endless gadgetry being promoted for which the purpose is pretty obscure - answers in search of questions - but that does not invalidate the premise. We cannot sensibly improve on rifle design unless we decide what a rifle is to be required to do. If we specialize overmuch in this thinking, we come up with instruments well-suited to a specific task but not to any others. Possibly the ultimate special-purpose rifle is the new Walther 2000, which does not perform its special task conspicuously better than a more generalized piece, but which is almost totally useless for anything else.

It is much easier to specialize than to generalize, and the definition of a general-purpose rifle is a complex task. Let us attempt it by declaring that a general-purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable ofstrik- ing a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target. This involved statement will not meet with everyone's approval but certain elements of it must be accepted before we proceed. Convenience is important. Power is important. Practical accuracy, as opposed to intrinsic accuracy, is important. If we add the desirability of ruggedness, versatility and speed of operation, and finally throw in a touch of aesthetics, we complete a workable set of parameters. Such a piece is eminently suited for taking the vast predominance of four-footed game, and equally so for men.

<snip>

The Concept

The idea behind the scout rifle is not new. The famous old Mannlicher 6.5 carbine was a step in this direction, as was the equally famous Winchester Model 94 30-30 carbine. The British "Jungle Carbine" of World War II was another example of the breed, and finally there came the ill-fated Remington 600 carbines of a decade ago - excellent guns in most ways but ahead of their time. I acquired a 600 in 308 and fitted it with a Leupold 2X intermediate-eye-relief telescope. This laid the groundwork for the scout concept now being studied by the conference. This little gun was an absolute delight, and it sits in my rack today. Its decisive drawback, of course, is that neither the rifle nor the telescope is any longer manufactured. Also it is imperfect in some other ways, and the builders of new versions of the scout rifle will seek to overcome all such weaknesses.

The consensus of the conference was that modern technology enables us to produce a rifle which need not sacrifice either power or accuracy to convenience. The new-wave rifle is neither more powerful nor intrinsically more accurate than the
rifles of the past, but it is much, much handier - shorter, lighter and quicker to operate. The current guideline is a length limit of one meter and a weight limit of three kilos. (This weight is measured with all accessories in place but with the weapon unloaded.) Immediately these limitations point us toward short actions, short barrels, compact sights, and synthetic stocks. A further feature which distinguishes the modern scout rifle from its predecessors is the telescope sight, but that in a certain particular mode. The modern scout uses a low-power telescope mounted just forward of the magazine well. In recent decades, progress in the development of telescope sights has been to a certain extent negative in that telescopes, instead of becoming stronger, smaller and faster to use have become larger, more cumbersome, more fragile and almost necessarily mounted too high above the bore. Current Zeiss glasses, for example, are marvelous optical instruments but clumsy sighting devices. Since most modern shooters are used to these things they do not understand the advantages of a radically different system, but there is little doubt in the minds of those who have used the scout telescope that it is the only proper general-purpose sighting system for a rifle.

-- Michael

[splithoof]

I find the timing of this thread interesting. Having just got back from school, we conversed at length over dinner and in class the meaning of "general purpose", and how the historical scouts likely carried themselves when deeply imbedded, and what "general purpose" likely meant to them at the time.

[23 Blast]

Originally Posted by splithoof

I find the timing of this thread interesting. Having just got back from school, we conversed at length over dinner and in class the meaning of "general purpose", and how the historical scouts likely carried themselves when deeply imbedded, and what "general purpose" likely meant to them at the time.

Which school are you talking about and what historical context of "scout" are you referring to?

This topic is interesting to me as an academic exercise. I think Cooper obviously had far more experience in rifle shooting and hunting than most, and that influenced his development of the Scout Rifle concept.

This is why I think the "Scout" rifle is less a scout rifle in the context of a military-oriented scout whose primary role is reconnaissance, and not combat, and is instead more of a "quick handling, snapshot-capable hunting firearm" rather than "lightweight combat rifle suitable for long-distance, foot-mobile reconnaissance missions."

I think, if you look historically at men who used firearms in their daily lives, and who decidedly were NOT members of a large, organized military unit like a troop of horse mounted cavalry, they generally favored arms that gave them a firepower advantage. Repeating revolvers, repeating lever-action rifles, etc. were perhaps less powerful in their individual shots than single-shot muzzle-loaders and even other breech-loaded, cartridge single shots, but in a situation requiring more shots, you could fling more lead.

And, in a situation where you needed only one, well-placed shot - as in the context of hunting game, well, a repeater capable of shooting lots of lead could also serve as a capable hunting rifle. Not so much the other way around.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

It's a 308 hunting rifle.
There is no need for it to work with 190gr VLD's...

Upon further research, I found that the M24 is 1 in 12. Good enough for military snipers, good enough for me.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by divert_fuse

Cooper's scout rifle is NOT a general-purpose .308. It's a special-purpose .308. As such, it has lots of design elements which make it inferior as a general-purpose .308 in order to be a better scout .308. Since any scout-type .308 will be more expensive than a comparable general-purpose .308, you'd have to want the scout features. And you don't.

I don't care. I wanted lightweight, short, and a threaded barrel. The Steyr Scout has that stuff. I don't care that a forward scope mount is on it because a normal one is also. One thing that it is missing is a detachable box magazine. I'm also not sure about the comb height because I haven't had a chance to handle one.

To find all the stuff I want on one rifle it seems like I would have to <GASP> go to a custom rifle maker. Sure don't wanna do that so I might have to compromise.

[200Apples]

I stand by my implication that the Scout was, in a sense, designed more for defense when scouting than taking game between N and 500 lbs. If you primarily planned to use a rifle for taking said game, and did not expect defense to be a significant issue, you'd probably be better off with a more conventional rifle.

Stand all you wish, but since you seem to be unclear as to what constitutes a dangerous game rifle, your opinion in this matter has less credibility, sorry to say. Please don't take that personally. I don't know you.

One really has to "get" what fuels the desire for a scout rifle: a rifle that is of a certain minimum power (which might be .30-06, but modern .308 loadings match those ballistics, and permit chambering in shorter, lighter-weight actions), and also a rifle that is "friendly". Most traditional hunting rifles are less friendly to handle and carry all day than a scout rifle is.

And those who have remained open-minded, and who by a leap of faith (let's call it) have actually hunted with a rifle that is considered a "scout" are usually, and surprisingly, delighted with the rifle.

I do not wish to argue with you over these things (forgive me), as they are mostly subjective, while, yes; there are physical criteria for a scout rifle, one either embraces the concept, or one does not. It appears you do not, and that's okay.

Which school are you talking about and what historical context of "scout" are you referring to?

I know you've asked this of our esteemed colleague splithoof, but, if I may... the school is Gunsite Academy, the school which Jeff Cooper established in the late 1970s. For some people, there is no other school.

Cooper's concept of the military scout was as follows:

Excerpt from the chapter The Scout Concept, in Cooper's "C Stories"

This got me to thinking about the evolution of personal rifles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. At that time, military rifles were large and heavy, suitable for the target range, but a nuisance to pack around individually. They were issued to armies, but individual civilian purchasers sought something handier...

In the U.S., the legendary lever-action Winchester Model 94 in caliber .30-30 was a great market success. In Europe, the [excellent] Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5 carbine became preeminent both on the Continent and abroad in Africa and India.

The 94 and the "Mannlicher" were not at all alike mechanically, but they were both short, light handy, and "friendly". They were not suitable for military use, but they were superb for the individual sportsman or explorer faring far afield and depending upon the "one shot-one kill" principle if it could be had in the neatest possible package.

THE POINT HERE is that these two pioneer designs were never the proper arm of military units. They were, however, suitable for that individual soldier known as the "scout". Back in [Cooper's R.O.T.C. days], the scouting and patrolling manual in the battalion stated as follows:

"The scout is a man trained in ground and cover, movement from cover to cover, rifle marksmanship, map reading, observation, and accurately reporting the results of his observation." The scout, therefore, was a man by himself, or possibly with one companion. He was not supposed to get into fights, but if he could not avoid contact, he was expected to shoot quickly, accurately, and hard.

His weapon, therefore, could be somewhat more specialized that that of the line soldier. What he needed was a scout rifle. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the U.S. never set out to construct a scout rifle for it's armies, but the scouting problem was essentially the problem of the hunter. The best weapon for the military scout may also be the best weapon for the private citizen stalking the deer.

[200Apples]

sigstroker

I wanted lightweight, short, and a threaded barrel. The Steyr Scout has that stuff. I don't care that a forward scope mount is on it because a normal one is also. One thing that it is missing is a detachable box magazine. I'm also not sure about the comb height because I haven't had a chance to handle one.

The Steyr Scout uses a 5-round dbm, and there is a place in the buttstock for a second magazine. At the time I purchased my Ruger GSR, the Steyr was just beyond my budget. I may purchase a Steyr in the future, but for now my Ruger serves my need for this kind of rifle very well.

[splithoof]

Thank you Apples, you have answered it very well.
I usually make two trips to Gunsite annually, and preferably with a group of my fellow students who take private tutorials, in which we choose the subject matter, and how long we wish the training to be. For this past week's (seven full days of training) adventure, Scout Rifle was the main subject for three intensive days.
All of the participants are dedicated riflemen (and one awesomely talented lady); and a number are very much into the historical aspects of all things military, including "scouting" from earlier times.

[sigstroker]

"The scout is a man trained in ground and cover, movement from cover to cover, rifle marksmanship, map reading, observation, and accurately reporting the results of his observation." The scout, therefore, was a man by himself, or possibly with one companion. He was not supposed to get into fights, but if he could not avoid contact, he was expected to shoot quickly, accurately, and hard.

His weapon, therefore, could be somewhat more specialized that that of the line soldier. What he needed was a scout rifle. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the U.S. never set out to construct a scout rifle for it's armies, but the scouting problem was essentially the problem of the hunter. The best weapon for the military scout may also be the best weapon for the private citizen stalking the deer.

By this definition, a good "scout rifle" is an AR-15 or Mk18 with an ACOG or red dot, either with 77 gr ammo or something like 6.5 Grendel. It isn't 1930, where Cooper and his bolt gun would be contemporary. In 2018, they are both (Cooper and his bolt gun) antiques.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by 200Apples

The Steyr Scout uses a 5-round dbm, and there is a place in the buttstock for a second magazine. At the time I purchased my Ruger GSR, the Steyr was just beyond my budget. I may purchase a Steyr in the future, but for now my Ruger serves my need for this kind of rifle very well.

That's right, I was mixing it up with this Kimber I recently looked at.

[200Apples]

10-4.

[200Apples]

By this definition, a good "scout rifle" is an AR-15 or Mk18 with an ACOG or red dot, either with 77 gr ammo or something like 6.5 Grendel.

Well, almost! except for the .22 caliber part. And replace Grendel with Creedmore, and you might have something.

The minimum caliber of any scout rifle criteria is .308, although there exists a pretty nifty little CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 X 39... which may equal the ballistics of the .30 WCF (..30-30). The fact remains that for a general purpose rifle, Cooper's ideal was .30-06 or as was noted earlier, modern .308 loadings.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

I don't care. I wanted lightweight, short, and a threaded barrel.
The Steyr Scout has that stuff.
I don't care that a forward scope mount is on it because a normal one is also.
One thing that it is missing is a detachable box magazine.

The scope being forward also allows the reciever to be setup to load with stripper clips.
You wouldn't even need the detachable box magazine system.
It's quicker to put a stripper clip in than it is to change magazines.

[splithoof]

Originally Posted by 200Apples

The minimum caliber of any scout rifle criteria is .308, although there exists a pretty nifty little CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 X 39... which may equal the ballistics of the .30 WCF (..30-30). The fact remains that for a general purpose rifle, Cooper's ideal was .30-06 or as was noted earlier, modern .308 loadings.

Speaking of that nifty little Carbine, I used my Brockman 527 as my primary "Scout" this past week, and was not disappointed. I even managed to get a number of hits out to 500, however I would never use it for hunting at that range; it was an exercise to learn about field ballistics. It does however make a dandy hog rig at much closer ranges, and with correct bullets.
Where it was most interesting was in the indoor "shoot house" simulators.

[200Apples]

splithoof

Speaking of that nifty little Carbine, I used my Brockman 527 as my primary "Scout" this past week, and was not disappointed. I even managed to get a number of hits out to 500, however I would never use it for hunting at that range; it was an exercise to learn about field ballistics. It does however make a dandy hog rig at much closer ranges, and with correct bullets.
Where it was most interesting was in the indoor "shoot house" simulators.

Oh, man! I bet. They're such great little rifles. I shoulder mine often, and every time I exclaim quietly to myself, "What a bi!tchen little rifle..." Every time. One afternoon at the square range shortly after it's acquisition, I took my (then factory original, as it remains) 7.62 527 Carbine out to the 600 yard steel... To say I had to hold quite high would be an understatement! but I nearly nailed it first shot! where a cloud of dust decorated the ground near the post supporting it.

It was just a lark, and at the time I went back to elbow-supported paper punching at 100 yards.

Please post a picture here of your Brockman-modified CZ? or better yet, post a thread on the subject. What a terrific piece, that.

[200Apples]

sigstroker, please forgive the detour, but since the internet is always more fun with pictures, here are a couple of cellphone photos of my Ruger and my CZ.





I have since restocked the Ruger with a composite stock, reducing it's weight to 7 lbs loaded (5 rounds of 168 grain jacketed) and no telescope...

[splithoof]

I would like to post a pic, but I'm not too savvy at all this electronic stuff, kinda.
Which "host" do you suggest?

[200Apples]

Until you can utilize a good tutorial, I can host then post an image or two for you, on your behalf, with crediting your username. I have sent you my email in PM.

[1859sharps]

divert_fuse
I suggest you read this, then we can actually have this discussion.

https://www.amazon.com/Scout-Rifle-S...ut+rifle+study

For every nugget of information on the internet that is accurate regarding the scout rifle concept, there are mountains of misunderstanding and misinformation.

The scout rifle is in fact a general purpose rifle. Everything that went into it was thought by Cooper to aid in ease of use (mounting rifle, aiming rifle, shooting the rifle) thus making it easier to actually achieve first shot hits. And to make carrying the rifle comfortable.

Richard sums it up perfectly and I am paraphrasing here...the scout rifle concept is about putting together a rifle for when you know you will need one, but not sure for what. And that describes general purpose to a T.

Originally Posted by sigstroker

By this definition, a good "scout rifle" is an AR-15 or Mk18 with an ACOG or red dot, either with 77 gr ammo or something like 6.5 Grendel. It isn't 1930, where Cooper and his bolt gun would be contemporary. In 2018, they are both (Cooper and his bolt gun) antiques.

Actually you are wrong. there is nothing general purpose about an AR 15 in 223/5.56 or the Grendel. The AR15 has it's lane, and in that lane it excels, but it's WAY, WAY out of it's lane when you try and use it as a general purpose rifle. now if you want to talk about light weight AR's in 308 you are at least getting closer. There is a reason 308 is most associated with the "scout rifle", and it has to do with general availability in addition to performance on a wide range of target sizes that the 223 just can't even begin to compete with.

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The scope being forward also allows the receiver to be setup to load with stripper clips.
You wouldn't even need the detachable box magazine system.
It's quicker to put a stripper clip in than it is to change magazines.

That the forward mounted scope allows for stripper clips to be used is a bi product of forward mounting a scope and not the primary idea behind doing so.

The snap shot and being able to keep both eyes open while using a scope had a lot more to do with it than being able to use stripper clips. as to which is faster on the reload...kind of moot as no one is making rifles that use them anymore.

the forward mounted scope isn't even a requirement. Having the option is, using it isn't.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

That the forward mounted scope allows for stripper clips to be used is a bi product of forward mounting a scope and not the primary idea behind doing so.

The snap shot and being able to keep both eyes open while using a scope had a lot more to do with it than being able to use stripper clips.

I know.

[1859sharps]

I will try and remember that. I replied as I did because there are a lot of people out there that think the forward mounting is about using stripper clips, and as such dismiss the option and possibly miss out on a benefit.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by 200Apples

Well, almost! except for the .22 caliber part. And replace Grendel with Creedmore, and you might have something.

The minimum caliber of any scout rifle criteria is .308, although there exists a pretty nifty little CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 X 39... which may equal the ballistics of the .30 WCF (..30-30). The fact remains that for a general purpose rifle, Cooper's ideal was .30-06 or as was noted earlier, modern .308 loadings.

I responded to what I quoted above, the purpose of the rifle. Shooting deer-sized or two legged critters with heavy bullet 5.56 or 6.5 Grendel should do the job.

Besides, I thought Cooper liked .35 Whelen and only later relented on .308 because it was popular.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

Actually you are wrong. there is nothing general purpose about an AR 15 in 223/5.56 or the Grendel. The AR15 has it's lane, and in that lane it excels, but it's WAY, WAY out of it's lane when you try and use it as a general purpose rifle. now if you want to talk about light weight AR's in 308 you are at least getting closer. There is a reason 308 is most associated with the "scout rifle", and it has to do with general availability in addition to performance on a wide range of target sizes that the 223 just can't even begin to compete with.

Did you read the quote I responded to? Heavy bullet 5.56 is just fine for those purposes. A scout isn't going to shoot an 800 pound elk. The quote basically says you can use a general purpose rifle for a scout, it doesn't say a scout HAS to be a general purpose rifle.

If I thought I needed a Scout (I don't) it would be a Mk18 type with 11" barrel, my 1-6x Vortex on top, and my YHM silencer on the end. It would be shorter and handier than a bolt Scout, and come in very close to the target weight even with the can. I'm never going to Africa, or even Texas, so any critter I'm going to meet will fall to 20 rounds of 5.56. That Alaska guy on tv kills grizzlies with his M16. I'm not worried about hunting regs because we're talking about TEOTWAIKI, right?

[1859sharps]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

Did you read the quote I responded to? Heavy bullet 5.56 is just fine for those purposes. A scout isn't going to shoot an 800 pound elk. The quote basically says you can use a general purpose rifle for a scout, it doesn't say a scout HAS to be a general purpose rifle.

If I thought I needed a Scout (I don't) it would be a Mk18 type with 11" barrel, my 1-6x Vortex on top, and my YHM silencer on the end. It would be shorter and handier than a bolt Scout, and come in very close to the target weight even with the can. I'm never going to Africa, or even Texas, so any critter I'm going to meet will fall to 20 rounds of 5.56. That Alaska guy on tv kills grizzlies with his M16. I'm not worried about hunting regs because we're talking about TEOTWAIKI, right?

you can do and think what you want, but in my opinion your not getting what a general purpose rifle is. It isn't that I didn't read your post, it's that I think your just flat out wrong about 223 ARs as general purpose rifles. Even with 77 grain.

The more you move down the path of AR 15, short barrel, silencer... it just shows your (in my opinion) not getting it. What you describe is specialized and moving in the opposite direction of general purpose. Scout rifles are about general purpose...I know I NEED a rifle, but I don't know for what.

While the list of attributes that make up Cooper's scout rifle are just one way to achieve a general purpose rifle. ALL general purpose rifles will share some attributes in common. One of which will be caliber capable of more than what 223 can do. 223 is a small varmint round that got pressed into military service, and thanks to CMP/high power competition has a some heavier bullet options, but NOTHING that would fill the roll of general purpose.

General purpose rifles (or even Coopers scout rifles) are NOT about TEOTWAIKI fantasies. They are about having a practical, real world rifle that will meet just about any real world, non fantasy need, with the exception of a few specialized tasks. You can choose an AR, and you can think you have a general purpose rifle. But try taking that rifle to most parts of the world. not going to happen. But a bolt action, completely different story. But lets say there were for a moment. that you feel it is ok to have a rifle that takes 20 rounds to drop something...shows you not only don't get general purpose...you also don't get what it really means if the world we know ends, particularly on a large scale.

Originally Posted by sigstroker

I thought Cooper liked .35 Whelen and only later relented on .308 because it was popular.

I honestly don't know what Cooper thought of the .35 Whelen, but none of his public writings that I have read regarding his scout rifle concept even considered it, mentioned it, or suggested it was his first, second or last choice for a general purpose rifle, let alone his scout rifle concept.

I know he loved the 30.06 and is on record as saying it was the best general purpose option out there (his opinion). But he "settled" on 308 for because you can get 30.06 performance out of modern 308 ammunition in the short action bolt action rifles, combined with near world wide availability of ammunition.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by 1859sharps

you can do and think what you want, but in my opinion your not getting what a general purpose rifle is. It isn't that I didn't read your post, it's that I think your just flat out wrong about 223 ARs as general purpose rifles. Even with 77 grain.

The more you move down the path of AR 15, short barrel, silencer... it just shows your (in my opinion) not getting it. What you describe is specialized and moving in the opposite direction of general purpose. Scout rifles are about general purpose...I know I NEED a rifle, but I don't know for what.

Your reading comprehension is really lacking. I didn't say anything above about what a general purpose rifle was, I said what a scout rifle was BASED OF THE QUOTE FROM COOPER'S BOOK.

While the list of attributes that make up Cooper's scout rifle are just one way to achieve a general purpose rifle. ALL general purpose rifles will share some attributes in common. One of which will be caliber capable of more than what 223 can do. 223 is a small varmint round that got pressed into military service, and thanks to CMP/high power competition has a some heavier bullet options, but NOTHING that would fill the roll of general purpose.

There's nothing that a scout would typically encounter that can't be handled with a 5.56.

General purpose rifles (or even Coopers scout rifles) are NOT about TEOTWAIKI fantasies. They are about having a practical, real world rifle that will meet just about any real world, non fantasy need, with the exception of a few specialized tasks. You can choose an AR, and you can think you have a general purpose rifle. But try taking that rifle to most parts of the world. not going to happen. But a bolt action, completely different story. But lets say there were for a moment. that you feel it is ok to have a rifle that takes 20 rounds to drop something...shows you not only don't get general purpose...you also don't get what it really means if the world we know ends, particularly on a large scale.

I don't care anything about that. If I'm going to go hunt elk, I'll just go buy a rifle better suited for it. If I'm going to go blast critters in Africa, I'll buy whatever rifles are suited for that. I'm not going to say "Oh I have a Scout Rifle, I can shoot anything". The only scenario where I'll only have one rifle is TEOTWAWKI. And my little light, short AR will be able to handle most situations.

[200Apples]

I'm not going to say "Oh I have a Scout Rifle, I can shoot anything".

The scout rifle is not a dangerous game rifle, although the Norwegian Gov't seems to think .308 acceptable defense against polar bear.

Some of the problem here in this thread is from the lack of understanding the chamberings and construction of a dangerous game rifle versus the various, specialized chamberings of most typically-American hunting rifles suitable for use on nearly all game indigenous to North America...