.223 not sizing right

[Greg Curci]

I'm having an issue sizing my brass. First of I'm using RCBS small base die in a Hornady Lock n load AP. I run the die until it touches the shellplate and turn another 1/4 turn. All my brass is mix headstamp. While I'm sizing about 75% will size correctly and fit into my cartridge gauge (hornady .223 gauge). I size and check each case before I set primers. The cases that haven't sized properly I put to the side and when I try to resize them by turning the die another 1/2 turn they still won't fit into the cartridge gauge. Has anyone come across this? Am I doing something wrong with my set up?

[jsanch03]

After your 1/4 turn is the bottom of your sizing die touching or coming close to the shell plate? When I run the resizing die, similar to yours the bottom portion of the die is maybe about a card’s thickness away from touching the indent of the shellplate. This is on a Dillon xl650

[JagerDog]

Where is it hanging up in the case gauge?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Greg Curci

I'm having an issue sizing my brass. First of I'm using RCBS small base die in a Hornady Lock n load AP. I run the die until it touches the shellplate and turn another 1/4 turn. All my brass is mix headstamp. While I'm sizing about 75% will size correctly and fit into my cartridge gauge (hornady .223 gauge). I size and check each case before I set primers. The cases that haven't sized properly I put to the side and when I try to resize them by turning the die another 1/2 turn they still won't fit into the cartridge gauge. Has anyone come across this? Am I doing something wrong with my set up?

From your description of what you are doing, it sounds like you don't have a method to actually MEASURE the effect of the sizing.
A gauge is a go/no-go check but it does not show you where you actually ARE on shoulder length.
If you had an actual measurement to work from, you would know which way you need to adjust the die.

1/4 turn and 1/2 turn are MASSIVE adjustments.

You should be adjusting around 0.002" at a time when adjusting the die.
0.002" is 1/28 of a turn.

The easiest way to have a SCALE is to make 1mm spaced hash marks on some masking tape and wrap the tape around the 7/8" threaded portion of the die.
Each 1mm hash mark will give you 0.001" of adjustment.
1/4 turn is 0.018".

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by JagerDog

Where is it hanging up in the case gauge?

My money is on the gauge not being relieved to clear dinged up rims so cases with pull marks on the rim hang up and people that don't realize it's happening think the case is not fitting some other part of the gauge.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

From your description of what you are doing, it sounds like you don't have a method to actually MEASURE the effect of the sizing.
A gauge is a go/no-go check but it does not show you where you actually ARE on shoulder length.
If you had an actual measurement to work from, you would know which way you need to adjust the die.

1/4 turn and 1/2 turn are MASSIVE adjustments.

You should be adjusting around 0.002" at a time when adjusting the die.
0.002" is 1/28 of a turn.

The easiest way to have a SCALE is to make 1mm spaced hash marks on some masking tape and wrap the tape around the 7/8" threaded portion of the die.
Each 1mm hash mark will give you 0.001" of adjustment.
1/4 turn is 0.018".

What Randall is referring to is how far you move the shoulder back. That’s done in small increments. The body is resized basically the same regardless of the 1/4 vs 1/2 turn.

[sigstroker]

I do all my full length resizing on a Rock Chucker.

[Greg Curci]

Thank you for all the responses, it's my first batch of rifle reloads, please forgive me if I'm a little ignorant with my set up.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by Greg Curci

Thank you for all the responses, it's my first batch of rifle reloads, please forgive me if I'm a little ignorant with my set up.

Have you "chamber checked" a few of those pesky cases that were case gage rejects?

If not. Do so before screwing around with anything else. Since you are already using a SB-FL sizer. And hard bumping the shell plate to the die base. Most likely outcome, is that they fit your rifle just fine.

In which case, drop the case gage in a drawer and immediately forget where you lost it.

In extremely rare circumstances. Manufacturer will cut a die overly deep. By extremely rare, I'm guestamating one in every couple hundred thousand.

If that's the situation. The cases won't fit the rifle either.

[Greg Curci]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Have you "chamber checked" a few of those pesky cases that were case gage rejects?

If not. Do so before screwing around with anything else. Since you are already using a SB-FL sizer. And hard bumping the shell plate to the die base. Most likely outcome, is that they fit your rifle just fine.

In which case, drop the case gage in a drawer and immediately forget where you lost it.

In extremely rare circumstances. Manufacturer will cut a die overly deep. By extremely rare, I'm guestamating one in every couple hundred thousand.

If that's the situation. The cases won't fit the rifle either.

I put together a few dummy rounds with the cases that wouldn't fit the gauge, the bolt wouldn't get all the way into battery and took quite a bit of force to get the charging handle and bold back to get it to eject the round.

[tabascoz28]

I'm learning the hard way myself but it seems that a progressive press lacks the camming action of rock chucker. Once all the other dies are putting resistance on the system it takes even more force to get that extra .002 inches down. I'm sure the Hornady is built better than my Lee Breach Lock Pro.

[cocorador]

Check out the precision mic from RCBS. I have one for every rifle caliber I own. It helps me set up my dies for sizing as well as bullet seating. Maybe there is a video on youtube.

[baih777]

Why are you using a small base die ?
its only needed if your brass was military or police range brass shot out of fully auto rifle. use a regular 223 die if its your own once fired brass.

all the brass that does not size correctly. is it all the same head stamp ?

when using that Hornady guage. the brass that does not fit the guage. look at the other end of the guage and see if the brass is bottoming out in the guage. since the brass has not been trimmed yet. it may be too long. the Hornady guage also guages the length of the brass at the same time.
if this is the problem. then drill out the guage so that it will let the long untrimmed brass seat to check the headspace.

Midway has free shipping offer right now.
buy a Lyman or Dillon 223 guage.
do you have the Lee decapper die ? buy a couple of spare decapping shafts at the same time.
if you need to buy another regular die. just buy the Lee 223 FL die. it has holes drilled into the neck to let the excess lube push out and you wont dent any brass. buy a spare decapping shaft at the same time.
on your Hornady shellplate. keep a extra spring on hand.

there is nothing wrong with your press. i do 2 gallon buckets of 223 at a time with my Hornady.

[rsrocket1]

Take a resized case that won't fit in the case gauge and color it completely with a magic marker or Sharpie including the rim. Then try to fit it into the case gauge again. Use a rod to push it back out if it's stuck. Look for where the ink rubbed off and you'll know where it's out of spec.

As Randall said, many times, the rims are banged up and are the only parts that won't fit in the gauge but if your bolt won't close then it might be that the very bottom of the head is still expanded too much and your dies aren't able to size them completely. A single stage press might help. I have a LnL AP also but I resize and prime on a single stage press or SS press and hand primer. I only use the LnL to drop powder and seat the bullet.

The LnL AP will cam over slightly but don't adjust it to do so, you are only asking for trouble with 5 stations.

[tabascoz28]

I like that the AP will cam, why not set it up for rifles? All the other dies would just float above and adjust as needed befire mass producing.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by tabascoz28

I like that the AP will cam, why not set it up for rifles? All the other dies would just float above and adjust as needed befire mass producing.

If you ever setup a progressive press to cam over, you need to put 2 more dies across the shellplate also against the shellplate as well to support the shellplate platform from being bent if you are camming the press over with only 1 die hard against the shellplate.

[NapalmCheese]

Are you lubing the inside of the case necks?

[divingin]

Originally Posted by tabascoz28

I'm learning the hard way myself but it seems that a progressive press lacks the camming action of rock chucker. Once all the other dies are putting resistance on the system it takes even more force to get that extra .002 inches down. I'm sure the Hornady is built better than my Lee Breach Lock Pro.

Sounds like 2 issues: The actions performed by the other dies are stretching the press more, so you need more "down" on the sizing die to get to the same point when the press is doing several operations at once, vs having just a single piece of brass in the sizing station.

OP: you really need to ditch the die instructions and set up the sizing die to get the correct amount of base-shoulder reduction, rather than sizing the max amount. Your brass (and possibly your face) will thank you. Oversizing will lead to case head separations in as little as one to a few firings. "Correct amount" is generally .001-.002" for a bolt gun, and .002-.005" for a semi-auto. Much more than that is generally going to cause eventual problems.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by NapalmCheese

Are you lubing the inside of the case necks?

Good thought. The internal sizing button can stretch the shoulder back out on extraction.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by NapalmCheese

Are you lubing the inside of the case necks?

Originally Posted by JagerDog

Good thought. The internal sizing button can stretch the shoulder back out on extraction.

A side benefit of dry tumbling is that the walnut or corn media dust stays inside the necks and acts as a dry lube so that the neck expanding button does not stick to the case neck.

People who wet tumble run into many more problems with the cases sticking to the neck expander as the cases are TOO clean.

[MarikinaMan]

The way I adjust a sizing die is I start as u did. Then I put the sized case into a case gauge. I will keep adjusting the die until five random cases go into the gauge and pass. Then I’ll lock the die in place.

[smoothy8500]

I guess nobody checks their sizing against the chamber in question? Is the case gauge at SAAMI minimum or maximum? Are you bumping the shoulder .002" or .005"? Inquiring minds want to know....

[hambam105]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

If you ever setup a progressive press to cam over, you need to put 2 more dies across the shellplate also against the shellplate as well to support the shellplate platform from being bent if you are camming the press over with only 1 die hard against the shellplate.

I've been reloading off a Dilion for years.
Never had a FL resizing issue with any caliber.

I suppose if you are like me and never read the instruction manual for the press you should hang around the guys that do.

Thanks Randal.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by hambam105

I've been reloading off a Dilion for years.
Never had a FL resizing issue with any caliber.

I suppose if you are like me and never read the instruction manual for the press you should hang around the guys that do.

Thanks Randal.

Supporting the shellplate on a progressive while camming over is not in the manual.
I figured that out when I was setting up my 650 for decapping, lube, trim and neck expand.
I used the lube/decap and the Lyman M die to support the opposite side of the shellplate from the sizer/trimmer die.
Once I did that, I got much more consistent shoulder lengths.
A dial indicator showed me what was happening when the shellplate was not being backed up by those two dies opposite the sizer/trimmer.

[stand125]

Are you lubing the inside of the case neck? I have had necks that had a difficult time getting the expander ball out and it actually pulled the shoulder. I noticed accuracy improve once I picked a head stamp and stuck with it. Find a headstamp that resize and chambers and discard the others.

[kelvin232]

Cases not trimmed after sizing. Neck too long and hitting stop on case Guage. Trim cases.

Get calipers and confirm case OAL.

[hambam105]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

If you ever setup a progressive press to cam over, you need to put 2 more dies across the shellplate also against the shellplate as well to support the shellplate platform from being bent if you are camming the press over with only 1 die hard against the shellplate.

I consider myself more a technician than a machinist or engineer because having that shell plate resting caddy-wompast atop the ram never crossed my mind.

[JagerDog]

Originally Posted by smoothy8500

I guess nobody checks their sizing against the chamber in question? Is the case gauge at SAAMI minimum or maximum? Are you bumping the shoulder .002" or .005"? Inquiring minds want to know....

Guessing the brass didn't come from his rifle. Appears to be AR platform. Sizing to spec rather than chamber isn't a bad way to go. Gauge should be toward min.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by hambam105

I consider myself more a technician than a machinist or engineer because having that shell plate resting caddy-wompast atop the ram never crossed my mind.

If you want to do some visual learning, setup a progressive press with just a sizing die and two dial indicators.
One indicator on the side with the sizing die and the other indicator on the other side of the shellplate.
Do not set the sizing die to touch the shellplate yet.
You want to watch the shellplate come up while sizing a case and then compare how the shellplate comes up when NOT sizing a case.
Now turn the die down a little so you are hard bumping the die on the shellplate and repeat the measurements.
It should be easy to see what's happening once you have the indicators showing you what you can not see.

[Greg Curci]

Thank you for all the advice, I probably should have noted that I bought once fired brass from another calgunner. My case gauge is to SAAMI specs. This is my first time reloading rifle cartridges after loading pistol for a while. I've been using the small base dies for the first go around and plan on using a Lee FL die for all the brass that I pick up after using in my AR.

[smoothy8500]

Originally Posted by Greg Curci

My case gauge is to SAAMI specs.

Everyone always says this. Yet stuff that "fits" the gauge, doesn't always seem to fit the chamber.....

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by smoothy8500

Everyone always says this. Yet stuff that "fits" the gauge, doesn't always seem to fit the chamber.....

And even though they SAY it's to SAAMI spec, quite often it's NOT on the end of the SAAMI specs that you want it to be.
It might be on the other end which is almost no help at all.

[BrassCase]

Originally Posted by hambam105

I've been reloading off a Dilion for years.
Never had a FL resizing issue with any caliber.

I suppose if you are like me and never read the instruction manual for the press you should hang around the guys that do.

Thanks Randal.

Instruction manual? Those are just suggestions

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

And even though they SAY it's to SAAMI spec, quite often it's NOT on the end of the SAAMI specs that you want it to be.
It might be on the other end which is almost no help at all.

^^^YEP^^^

Not all holes are created equal.

Rifle chamber is a HOLE
Sizer Die is a HOLE

Those 2 HOLES are relevant.

Cartridge Gage is a HOLE. But until it is PROVEN to match the Chamber HOLE.

It is just another source of problems in the "TOLERANCE STACKING SOUP" that plagues all things reloading related.

[hambam105]

Randal...
I will put this on the, Do-List.
A local neighbor might be up for this challenge who has machines equipment looking for another learning opportunity.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by hambam105

Randal...
I will put this on the, Do-List.
A local neighbor might be up for this challenge who has machines equipment looking for another learning opportunity.

Take the spring/ball out from under the shellplate and snug the shellplate down when you do the test.
Having the spring/ball in there and not having the shellplate snug to the shellplate platform will give you false readings.

[tawadc95]

You need a comparator to measure shoulder of a fired from your rifle case and a sized case.
Once you know each measurement you adjust the lock ring on your die with calipers and acquire your .004-.005 set back for AR.
Check that it chambers and the bolt fully rotated closed with all the springs out. After confirming the bolt closes the same feel without and with a properly sized case you put a couple pieces of wrapping tape on the head of the case and ithe bolt should close with some resistance if you are indeed .004-.005 setback.
Calipers are your best friend.
Make sure neck is proper length and external diameter before chambering.

[hambam105]

Exnay, a technical term, spring & ball bearing during measurement test. Understood.

I will put Dillion to the test.

Can't see myself ever going to a Hornaday or Lee Progressive.

The plan is to knock out primer with universal decapping die. and then FL re-size rifle cases.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by hambam105

The plan is to knock out primer with universal decapping die. and then FL re-size rifle cases.

Go read my stickied high volume brass processing thread.

In a 5 station 650, Put a lube die in station 1 to decap and lube.
Put a trimmer or sizer in station 3.
Put a Lyman M die in station 5.

Both the Lube Die and Lyman M die get adjusted against the shellplate to support the shellplate from cantilevering while you are sizing on the other side of the shellplate.

The sizing die does not need a button since the M die does the expanding.
Cases expanded downwards are not going to get their shoulders pulled forward by the expander being drawn upwards through the neck.
The much longer expander of an M die is much more gentle than an expander ball which has to be really short to fit into the case while the case is being sized.
If you trim in station 3 with a dillon trimmer, the M die will break off any internal burr that is left from trimming.
The tumbling you do to get rid of the lube should break off any external burrs too.

[NoHeavyHitter]

You mention your brass is "mixed headstamp" and that you bought it from someone else. That sounds a lot like range-pick-up brass to me, which means you have no way to know how many times it was fired.

So, on that notion, are you checking the OAL of all these shells to ensure that they are below maximum trim length? Bottle-neck rifle brass grows in length every time it's fired. If it gets too long it's possible to have the kind problems you are having, so be sure to pay attention to OAL.

Just so you know, once my brass is on it's "last shot", I tend not to bother picking it up when I used to visit public ranges. I suspect that others do the same with theirs. Mixed headstamp brass has its issues and keeping the case lengths equal goes a long way towards producing consistent bullet crimps - which will yield more consistent accuracy.

Get used to trimming your brass now. You are going to have to do it if you keep reloading. When I started out, I didn't have a brass trimmer and never knew how much improvement having one made. Better be doing the paper-clip test for detecting a coming head separation too. When I leave brass on the ground, it's because It's done and I don't want a case head separation. That is why I check very carefully any brass that I pick up. Using pick-up brass is fine - you just need to scrutinize it a bit more than what you shoot that you know is new.