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  #1  
Old 09-25-2021, 5:42 PM
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Default Mamas carrying at home with little kids

Question for all the mamas out there: do you carry with your little ones at home? If so, what style holster? AIWB? Belly band?

Background story: our neighborhood is typically quiet but recently there's been a string of break ins, mailbox theft, transient activity, etc.

Yesterday someone jumped our backyard fence through an empty field next to our house and took our pet tortoise (10 yrs old sulcata), all while my wife was home alone with our two little ones (2yr old and 1yr old). She's worried that person has been keeping an eye on the house because it happened after my parents came to take our 2 GSDs for a few days. She's concerned that person could come back while she's home alone with the kids.

She wants to start carrying her handgun, 9mm full size p320 with Romeo 1. She knows California self defense laws suck and she can't shoot perp unless he steps in the house.
Any helpful tips are appreciated!
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Old 09-25-2021, 5:53 PM
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Not a mama, but do you have a camera system to give a bit of early warning?
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Old 09-25-2021, 6:17 PM
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Not a mama, but do you have a camera system to give a bit of early warning?
Yes we do, but perp knew to avoid those areas by going through empty field next to our backyard. Perhaps I need to upgrade and add more.
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Old 09-27-2021, 4:18 PM
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I'm a female; but, not a mama. This is a tough call. I'm obviously pro-2A and pro CCW. However, this must be balanced with the consideration of young children in the house.

The thing is, mamas do a lot of bending, stooping, chasing, etc with children in the house. She has to make sure that the gun won't fall out and that the little ones won't try to grab at it or tug on it. Even something like having the baby kick at it while s/he is being carried in the arms can be a problem. I think it could be tempting to take the weapon out and set it down for "just a minute" while giving the babies a bath because guns can dig in while stooping over the edge of a bathtub. If she forgets that she set it down on the counter..... You know what I mean?

On the other hand, the gun is meant to protect her and her family in the event of an attacker coming in. As a woman, a gun is the great equalizer against a male intruder.

Also, be sure to investigate and note any local ordinances. For example, in San Diego, guns are required to be locked up inside the home, unless it is on your person or in your immediate control. Any accident with a firearm in the home could see additional charges due to our local ordinance. (See here: https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/defau.../nr190909a.pdf)

This is a personal family decision. Please feel free to come back and share with us what you considered and decided on. I think it would be a great help to other readers.
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Old 09-27-2021, 5:08 PM
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CA gun laws suck. Favor the criminals and not those attempting to live a quiet and peaceful life.

Please carry 100% of the time.

Be safe.

That is all.


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  #6  
Old 09-27-2021, 5:48 PM
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since in the home you may not care about concealing, maybe consider something with more positive retention, like some hip/leg holsters provide. There's holsters that army guys parachute with. Not gonna fall out chasing a toddler. Ultimately comfort and convenience do come in to play, if it is too much of a hassle you are less likely to carry (or like suggested, just take it out for a minute etc.)
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Old 09-27-2021, 7:01 PM
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I hope she knows she can't shoot anyone just because they came on your property, came in your house, stole your jewlery, drank your beer, stole you dog, etc. This ain't Texas.

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Originally Posted by EsotericEpsilon View Post
and she can't shoot perp unless he steps in the house.
Any helpful tips are appreciated!
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Old 09-27-2021, 8:06 PM
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No one here is going to show shocking outrage about someone stealing a freaking tortoise??? Thatís too far man


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Old 09-28-2021, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
I hope she knows she can't shoot anyone just because they came on your property, came in your house, stole your jewlery, drank your beer, stole you dog, etc. This ain't Texas.
I thought if they came into the house, you can shoot to defend yourself, since you do NOT know the bad guy's purpose in the house, and should rightfully fear for your life. OTOH, if, carrying your TV, he steps across the threshold outside, then you may not shoot.

Is this not true?

Katie
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Old 09-29-2021, 6:53 AM
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Default Mamas carrying at home with little kids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
I thought if they came into the house, you can shoot to defend yourself, since you do NOT know the bad guy's purpose in the house, and should rightfully fear for your life. OTOH, if, carrying your TV, he steps across the threshold outside, then you may not shoot.

Is this not true?

Katie

Absolutely not true in California. You can only use lethal force to stop great bodily injury. Does not matter where that happens.

Last edited by G-forceJunkie; 09-29-2021 at 6:57 AM..
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Old 09-29-2021, 6:57 AM
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Thatís an interesting issue, if you catch the person burgling your house you cannot shoot them however if they are aggressively kicking in your door and you have announced for them to stop repeatedly once they enter the house you can shoot themÖ So Iím not sure if the aggression is the defining factor in a good shoot


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Old 09-29-2021, 11:18 AM
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No, you can't shoot them for kicking our door. You cant shoot them for entering your house. If they want to kick in you door, then calmly walk in, offer you a nice greeting, take you tv and dog and walk out the door, you cannot shoot them.

The defining factor is if he/she (and can prove it to a jury) believes they or another person are in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury, believes he/she must use deadly force to prevent death or injury, and he/she uses an appropriate level of force (under the circumstances) in self defense.

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Thatís an interesting issue, if you catch the person burgling your house you cannot shoot them however if they are aggressively kicking in your door and you have announced for them to stop repeatedly once they enter the house you can shoot themÖ So Iím not sure if the aggression is the defining factor in a good shoot


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Old 09-29-2021, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
No, you can't shoot them for kicking our door. You cant shoot them for entering your house. If they want to kick in you door, then calmly walk in, offer you a nice greeting, take you tv and dog and walk out the door, you cannot shoot them.

The defining factor is if he/she (and can prove it to a jury) believes they or another person are in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury, believes he/she must use deadly force to prevent death or injury, and he/she uses an appropriate level of force (under the circumstances) in self defense.
IANAL. And...

From California Code, Penal Code - PEN ß 198.5

The statutory definition of self defense of one's home: "Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred."

I read that to say that if someone, not a relative, has broken into my house, and I had reason to believe that person broke in, I have a, "presumed reasonable fear of imminent peril," and I can shoot them...

Katie
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Old 09-29-2021, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BadKitty View Post
I'm a female; but, not a mama. This is a tough call. I'm obviously pro-2A and pro CCW. However, this must be balanced with the consideration of young children in the house.

The thing is, mamas do a lot of bending, stooping, chasing, etc with children in the house. She has to make sure that the gun won't fall out and that the little ones won't try to grab at it or tug on it. Even something like having the baby kick at it while s/he is being carried in the arms can be a problem. I think it could be tempting to take the weapon out and set it down for "just a minute" while giving the babies a bath because guns can dig in while stooping over the edge of a bathtub. If she forgets that she set it down on the counter..... You know what I mean?

On the other hand, the gun is meant to protect her and her family in the event of an attacker coming in. As a woman, a gun is the great equalizer against a male intruder.

Also, be sure to investigate and note any local ordinances. For example, in San Diego, guns are required to be locked up inside the home, unless it is on your person or in your immediate control. Any accident with a firearm in the home could see additional charges due to our local ordinance. (See here: https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/defau.../nr190909a.pdf)

This is a personal family decision. Please feel free to come back and share with us what you considered and decided on. I think it would be a great help to other readers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
since in the home you may not care about concealing, maybe consider something with more positive retention, like some hip/leg holsters provide. There's holsters that army guys parachute with. Not gonna fall out chasing a toddler. Ultimately comfort and convenience do come in to play, if it is too much of a hassle you are less likely to carry (or like suggested, just take it out for a minute etc.)
Thank you for the info. We've discussed all of this and she's caught between a thigh holster, small of back, or a belly holster. She's leaning more between belly or thigh holster. Here's our brainstorming so far:

Belly pros:
  • Hidden in case she needs to answer door
  • Not easily accessed by kids. She has full control over firearm
Belly cons:
  • Constant stooping and bending over could be uncomfortable
  • Carrying the kids could be uncomfortable
  • Firearm could be kicked by kids when she's carrying them
  • She is currently breastfeeding our youngest. She's weaning off but it'll take time

Small of back pros:
  • Stooping and bending over wouldn't be a hassle
  • Carrying the kids wouldn't be a problem
  • Hidden in case she needs to answer door
Small of back cons:
  • Firearm is out of sight. Kids could try to tamper with holster when she's turned away from them.
  • Sitting down while carrying kids could be uncomfortable
  • She feels like small of back would require more practice than other holsters because she's reaching for firearm with out line of sight

Thigh pros:
  • Firearm is in sight. Even if kids should try to tamper with firearm, she is in full control.
  • Stooping and bending over wouldn't be a hassle
  • Carrying the kids wouldn't be a hassle
Thigh cons:
  • Firearm is in sight. Answering door would require positioning body a certain way
  • Holster could get snagged on blankets, furniture, etc, or pulled on by kids while walking around house
  • Kids could be tempted to tamper with holster, use crayons to color it, touch it with messy hands, smear food on it, etc. The food, dirt, and grime on firearm could affect performance of drawing from holster and proper grip.
  • Sitting down while carrying kids could be awkward

I'll update this thread as we get more info/experience.

Last edited by EsotericEpsilon; 09-29-2021 at 8:48 PM..
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2021, 8:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsy714 View Post
No one here is going to show shocking outrage about someone stealing a freaking tortoise??? Thatís too far man


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I know right?!
We're upset about our tortoise, but the more we thought about it, the more our concern for family safety grew.
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Old 09-29-2021, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
IANAL. And...

From California Code, Penal Code - PEN ß 198.5

The statutory definition of self defense of one's home: "Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred."

I read that to say that if someone, not a relative, has broken into my house, and I had reason to believe that person broke in, I have a, "presumed reasonable fear of imminent peril," and I can shoot them...

Katie
This is the way we understand it as well. If someone forced their way into our house and my wife (5' 2" 125 lbs) had reason to believe the intruder was going to cause her or our 2yr old and 1yr old great bodily damage or death, she would have reason to use lethal force. She wouldn't open fire on the solar panel salesman just because he rang the doorbell and asked to come in to explain his pricing.
If the perp turned around and ran away she can't shoot at him as the situation would be de-escalated.

Last edited by EsotericEpsilon; 09-29-2021 at 8:54 PM..
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Old 09-29-2021, 9:01 PM
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Carrying a full size p320 with optic around all day everyday at home is going to get old quick. I say this as someone who carries all day everyday at home. I suggest a small lightweight revolver or 380 auto in a clip on holster. Use it to fight your way to a bigger gun.

If the P320 is all you have, consider the subcompact Xchange kit for it. It will be a big difference. Same action, smaller gun. It can ship direct to your door. They are getting hard to find now though...
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Old 09-30-2021, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by EsotericEpsilon View Post
Thank you for the info. We've discussed all of this and she's caught between a thigh holster, small of back...

Small of back pros: ...

Small of back cons: ...
Do you really mean the small of the back, middle area along the spine (6 o'clock position)? That could be quite hazardous if you fell backwards onto your weapon. Carry at 4 or 5 o'clock (side of the back) is much more common and supposed to be less hazardous for nerve damage if you fall.
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Old 10-01-2021, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsotericEpsilon View Post
Thank you for the info. We've discussed all of this and she's caught between a thigh holster, small of back, or a belly holster. She's leaning more between belly or thigh holster. Here's our brainstorming so far:

Belly pros:
  • Hidden in case she needs to answer door
  • Not easily accessed by kids. She has full control over firearm
Belly cons:
  • Constant stooping and bending over could be uncomfortable
  • Carrying the kids could be uncomfortable
  • Firearm could be kicked by kids when she's carrying them
  • She is currently breastfeeding our youngest. She's weaning off but it'll take time

Small of back pros:
  • Stooping and bending over wouldn't be a hassle
  • Carrying the kids wouldn't be a problem
  • Hidden in case she needs to answer door
Small of back cons:
  • Firearm is out of sight. Kids could try to tamper with holster when she's turned away from them.
  • Sitting down while carrying kids could be uncomfortable
  • She feels like small of back would require more practice than other holsters because she's reaching for firearm with out line of sight

Thigh pros:
  • Firearm is in sight. Even if kids should try to tamper with firearm, she is in full control.
  • Stooping and bending over wouldn't be a hassle
  • Carrying the kids wouldn't be a hassle
Thigh cons:
  • Firearm is in sight. Answering door would require positioning body a certain way
  • Holster could get snagged on blankets, furniture, etc, or pulled on by kids while walking around house
  • Kids could be tempted to tamper with holster, use crayons to color it, touch it with messy hands, smear food on it, etc. The food, dirt, and grime on firearm could affect performance of drawing from holster and proper grip.
  • Sitting down while carrying kids could be awkward

I'll update this thread as we get more info/experience.
Great assessments so far! Good job!

Again, speaking as a woman, our bodies are shaped differently. (woo! woo!) So carrying a weapon becomes a different ballgame when compared to the menfolk. For example, I have hips - carrying OWB at 3 o' clock is stupid (for me). The holster and gun will stick waaaaay out and can't reasonably be covered by shirt.

So, one idea might be to have her try each option for a few days to see how they work out in practice. Yeah, she'll have to spend some money on belly bands, thigh holsters, etc. We all have a drawer full of unused holsters that just didn't work out. (amiright?)

Just my personal thoughts:

-- one con for the small of the back is that the gun is very likely to be exposed any time she is bending over to pick something up, kneeling down, and reaching up overhead (like to put something away in a cupboard)

-- thigh holsters are probably more impractical than they seem. I would think there would be a high probability of the children trying to grab at it.

-- a belly band is a more secure option for keeping it in control and covered. Though, it could be in the way a little. Between all of the options thus far, I think this one might work the best.

-- Hey! My coworker just walked in and suggested a fanny pack! That might work too! Your wife would just have to be careful about not taking it off and setting it down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Carrying a full size p320 with optic around all day everyday at home is going to get old quick. I say this as someone who carries all day everyday at home. I suggest a small lightweight revolver or 380 auto in a clip on holster. Use it to fight your way to a bigger gun.
I agree that carrying a full size might be too much. Not because she can't handle a full size but because CCW is a bit easier with a smaller weapon. I carry a G42 and a G19, depending on my circumstances. It is HER gun and HER choice. If she wants a full size, then she will need to take that into consideration.

Also, respectfully, the idea of using one gun to fight your way into another room to a bigger gun isn't practical in this situation. She's a woman at home with two small children. If some nut job is busting in through the sliding glass door, her best bet is to draw and defend and then hope that is enough to scare him back out or, if necessary, neutralize the threat. She's not likely going to have the capacity to grab up a 2 year old and a 1 year old, while still holding a gun, and "fight" her way into another room.

However, going off SkyHawk's idea a little bit, what do you think of her not carrying at all and securing the [bigger] gun in a quick access safe in the main common room or in another room? If an intruder presents himself, she can snatch up the babies in both arms, bolt to the safe room and arm herself there. This option eliminates the discomfort of carrying on the body everyday and little hands trying to touch the gun. The downside is not having it in her immediate possession at all times. Just trying to brainstorm some ideas here. I do kinda like my coworkers fanny pack idea though.
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Old 10-07-2021, 3:36 PM
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I was in the type of situation described by BadKitty a very long time ago when I was the oldest of 5 siblings and the bad guys were breaking down the door. My sister, the second oldest, got the other siblings in the safe room and called the police (this was before 911) while I grabbed my hunting rifle and got to the hallway just as the bad guys broke down the door and entered our house. Engaging in a gun fight and getting two young children into the room where the bigger is is asking too much.

Carrying on the body with two young children is challenging. The children are constantly needing to be picked up. While attending to the 1 year old, the two year old will demand attention and they move fast. In a short time, the 2 year old will be 3 and potentially can have the strength to pull the trigger with his or her thumb when mom is distracted for just a second.

It might be safer and practical to have a few quick access safes in the house.

When I did some remodeling, I put a quick access safe near my front door, like this one: https://www.amazon.com/RPNB-Mounted-...7QF3W07V042D4P

I put a cabinet over it so from inside the house, visitors do not see the door to the gun safe. I can open the door, and open the safe scanning my index finger and the gun presents itself.

I have one near the back door.

I have 3 other quick access safes throughout the house. I also carry on my person when it is convenient.
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Old 10-07-2021, 5:52 PM
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Belly band with a smaller pistol at the 3 oíclock position. P365 LW Seecamp 32 Sig P238 would be good options. Best thing you could do is have the house locked up well and have quick easy access to your firearm. Bolt a little easy access safe into a drawer in the kitchen. A simple vaultek safe would work well. Fast easy and if she hears glass break or sees something suspicious she can grab it quickly. I have a couple little safes around the house. My home is small my wife and I can access a firearm in seconds. Nothing beats carrying on body but it seems like a full time job with a full size p320. Just my 2 pennies.


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Old 10-08-2021, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-forceJunkie View Post
No, you can't shoot them for kicking our door. You cant shoot them for entering your house. If they want to kick in you door, then calmly walk in, offer you a nice greeting, take you tv and dog and walk out the door, you cannot shoot them.

The defining factor is if he/she (and can prove it to a jury) believes they or another person are in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury, believes he/she must use deadly force to prevent death or injury, and he/she uses an appropriate level of force (under the circumstances) in self defense.
You do not need to prove anything, per se, in fact there is nothing to prove - it's your belief and the attackers intent that must be debated.

You need to convince a jury a "reasonable person" would believe their life, or someone else's, was in danger or at risk of great bodily harm. Whether or not it really was in danger does not matter. If you can convince a jury you believed it was - and that another reasonable person would also believe the same thing under the same circumstances, then it's a justifiable shooting.

There's a lot of case law that clearly establishes a castle doctrine of sorts in California.

Did the bad guy have the opportunity and means to inflict harm or death? That is going to be a major question during the trial.

Bad guy outside your home? They do not have the opportunity to inflict harm.
Bad guy breaks into your home? Now they have opportunity...
Bad guy carrying a weapon of any sort - tire iron, crowbar, knife, gun, baseball bat... Now they have the means, but if they're outside your home, they do not have opportunity...

We must also consider the dynamics between attacker and defender. The dynamic between a female defender and male attacker is going to be vastly different than a male on male or female on female. A jury may be more easily convinced a female defender believed her life or her children's lives were in danger from a male attacker even if the male attacker did not poses a weapon. The defender could make an argument they believed the attacker would physically overpower them. Now you have means again...

Someone kicking in your door and forcefully entering your home at night is going to be pretty easy to convince a jury of all that...

However, the correct thing to do if you believe someone has forced entry into you home is not to go looking for them with your gun. It could be argued you are now the one creating opportunity and means for the bad guy... Instead, you should barricade yourself in a room with your family, call the police and remain on the line until they get there and clear the house for you. Your gun should be last resort, if the bad guy decides to force entry into that particular room or something.

Some extra info:

https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/pe...stle-doctrine/

Regarding carrying in the house around little ones - someone already mentioned it but a Level 2 or 3 retention or better holster could be a great option. When your gun is not on your person and in your immediate control - lock it in a safe.

Last edited by NorCalRefuge; 10-08-2021 at 5:15 PM..
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Old 10-16-2021, 10:53 PM
yolocalypso yolocalypso is online now
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Not a mom, but a young female. I personally carry all the time even with two dogs I still carry at home. Look into a leather IWB holster- I found that they mold better and have a little more give than a plastic or metal holster.

I also suggest a smaller handgun- my hands are personally too small for a full size pistol and a full size takes up almost my whole leg in the holster and is harder to conceal.

Another option is to have a gun in every room- on a high shelf, under a mattress, etc. I take mine in the bathroom because I’ll be damned if I die naked in the shower or on the toilet.
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