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  #1  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:39 AM
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Question Do any LEO's or LE Departments use red dots on pistols?

I was just curious, looking at all the MOS cut Glocks these days, do any cops actually carry these on duty?

To me, a red dot is just one more thing to go wrong/worry about in a stressful emergency situation, but I was wondering if any LEO's use them.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:15 PM
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I would hazard to guess that outside of specialized unit's like SWAT or some of other high profile units in bigger agencies, you won't see too many used by your basic street cop. A lot of places are kind of on the slow side when it comes to adopting new weapon's tech. WML's have been around since the late 90's, but they have just started to become issued item's in the last 5 years or so.
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Old 08-01-2019, 1:51 PM
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I believe Bakersfield PD is in the testing phase right now and a few street cops have them. If I remember right Glock 34s with red dots and also had extended base plates on the mags.
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Old 08-01-2019, 2:16 PM
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I don't know of any actively carrying them on patrol but it won't be long. There really is not much to go wrong with a red dot. I put a Trijicon dual illumination on one of my pistols. The standard sights are still usable if need be and the optic is damn sturdy. Could something go wrong? Yeah, but your standard front sight could fall off too and they have at times.

Edit to add: The dual illumination does not use batteries. It collects light to project the dot.
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Old 08-01-2019, 3:29 PM
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LVMPD authorizes RMRs, I believe. I’ve seen quite a few of their officers with one. I could’ve possibly been running into specialty units without knowing it; they looked like patrol officers.

Then again, LVMPD gets in a fair amount of good shootings and I hear they train like crazy.

And yes, I know they’re not a CA agency.
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Old 08-02-2019, 1:51 AM
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My department (in Orange County) is in the testing phase. From what I hear, they will be approved within the year for all personnel. We are a Glock-only agency, and at this point we are only ordering/issuing the 17 gen 5 MOS. Our newest recruits all have Gen5 MOS guns. Once approved, we will provide the gun, but the individual officer will be responsible for the optic and holster.
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Old 08-02-2019, 4:17 AM
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Santa Cruz PD RDS is approved. Milled or factory ready. RMR/DPP only ����
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Old 08-02-2019, 9:01 AM
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RMR/RDS on pistols are a game changer. I am hopeful they will become widely used and technology will give us dots that stay on for a long time.
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Old 08-02-2019, 9:15 AM
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I think a bit later this year you’re gonna see a very big push in SoCal for pistol-mounted optics. Some big angencies already authorize or are about to and a couple really big ones are working on it. A bunch of guys in my unit just bought the new LE M&P CORE... I bought two. Between us we have around 120,000 documented rounds through pistol optics. They do indeed work, are a great advantage, and come with their own drawbacks that can be overcome.
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Old 08-02-2019, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
I think a bit later this year you’re gonna see a very big push in SoCal for pistol-mounted optics. Some big angencies already authorize or are about to and a couple really big ones are working on it. A bunch of guys in my unit just bought the new LE M&P CORE... I bought two. Between us we have around 120,000 documented rounds through pistol optics. They do indeed work, are a great advantage, and come with their own drawbacks that can be overcome.
^ This.
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Old 08-02-2019, 10:32 AM
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Its funny, because of ALL the add-ons that are used to consider a firearm an "assault" weapon, a properly sighted in Red Dot is more lethal than them all in terms if getting rounds on target.
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Old 08-02-2019, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
Its funny, because of ALL the add-ons that are used to consider a firearm an "assault" weapon, a properly sighted in Red Dot is more lethal than them all in terms if getting rounds on target.
It might have been a good idea to keep that little piece of information to yourself. You've probably given some legislative intern their next big idea, thanks.
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Old 08-02-2019, 6:01 PM
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LAPD has approved RMR's and the approved list is expected to be out in September.
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Old 08-03-2019, 9:55 AM
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Interesting stuff! I didn't know so many departments were adopting RD's. If rank-and-file LEO's trust them, they are worth looking at.

I don't think the dual illumination (no power mode) would work for me, as I am at an age where you guys can retire (at least in California) and I can barely see night sights. . Good that you can co-witness the iron sights though; that's a big consideration should the optic fail. I actually have an RMR but I've only used it on a Desert Eagle and rifles.

I wonder if everyone is going to need new holster to accommodate the RD's.

Man, now you guys will have me perusing the forums for a Gen 5 MOS.
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Old 08-03-2019, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guninator View Post
Interesting stuff! I didn't know so many departments were adopting RD's. If rank-and-file LEO's trust them, they are worth looking at.
Adopting and authorizing for use are two very different things. My old agency authorized AR's mid 90's, but the department did not fully adopt and put into general use (buy some) until 2003. You'll see them from time to time with the gun guy's at department's that authorize them. Adopting them would put them all everyone's gun, with budget's the way they are probably won't see that for a few years or more.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:59 AM
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CONFIRMED: US Secret Service Adopts Glock 19, G47 MOS Gen5 Pistols

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/u...ck-19-pistols/
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2019, 4:08 PM
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Word on the street is there are several OC agencies looking at them. Not sure if any of them have been rolled out yet though.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:03 AM
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My department just taught me combat shooting techniques.
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Old 08-05-2019, 4:16 AM
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RDS are not a game changer as asserted. There can be up to a stiff penalty in draw to first shot performance depending upon the skill of the shooter. Even high level competitors suffer a 4% loss. It requires solid training time and consistent practice to maintain. Cops are notorious for being bad shots and avoiding training beyond mandated minimums. For example, the guys on my friend’s squad in Philadelphia refuse to attend training and competition. It was just “a thing on our belt” to a group I worked with in Fairfax County and they thought carry dirty guns for six months was acceptable. Many will never improve their fighting skills. This complaint is old; Ed McGivern wrote extensively about it in his book “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting”, published in 1935.

RDS may help some officers, but will hinder others.

Performance study source: Karl Rehn, KR Training, Rangemaster Tac Conference, 2016

Last edited by tomrkba; 08-05-2019 at 5:07 AM..
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoopy47 View Post
Its funny, because of ALL the add-ons that are used to consider a firearm an "assault" weapon, a properly sighted in Red Dot is more lethal than them all in terms if getting rounds on target.
Snoopy you always have good posts but in general we all need to mention less things on CG
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:28 AM
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My CCW instructor 2 years ago, Captain with San Bernardino Sheriff was carrying a Glock 34 with RMR during our class. He was a big believer in them. I’m not surprised it’s taking so long, look how long it took for PD’s to carry AR’s and then optics on those.
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Old 09-30-2019, 8:55 PM
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Many have and many more are. See https://www.officer.com/tactical/fir...stols-sidearms

Key points:
- Be extremely wary about having an existing slide machined for a RDS -- lots of horror stories. Better to go integrated. Glock MOS, SIG P320, FN and a whole lot more.
- Don't use a RDS without extensive training. SIG says you need at least 3 days of intense training before you deploy.
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  #23  
Old 09-30-2019, 8:59 PM
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We should have red dot equipped glock MOS in the next year or two.
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Old 10-01-2019, 8:38 PM
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A few of the Deputies in the county I work have them. I know several other officers in others states that use them.

I would run one, but my astigmatism is too problematic. On days where it isn't acting up too much, my on target and transition times were quite a bit better. Sadly, most the time it's a giant crescent in the middle of the optic.
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Old 10-01-2019, 8:42 PM
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:48 AM
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RMRs can be knocked off center by duty use or their bolts loosening up, and shift. That will throw off the round impact. Officers who carry them will need to verify tightness of the RMR wrt the slide before shift.

I prefer RMRs co-witnessed w irons, and still run a traditional sight alignment/picture with the RMR on top of that.
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Old 10-02-2019, 3:56 PM
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I’ve seen dozens of iron sights shift due to impact or improper dovetail fit coupled with loosening set screws, not to mention several front sights falling off the gun (Glock) and lots of broken night sights.

Pistol optics can break and can lose zero, but with minimal maintenance and some dedication provide significant performance enhancement.

When an individual or agency makes a decision regarding the use of pistol optics, they should be wary of the level of experience and bias of people from whom they receive information.
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Old 10-03-2019, 1:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
RDS are not a game changer as asserted. There can be up to a stiff penalty in draw to first shot performance depending upon the skill of the shooter. Even high level competitors suffer a 4% loss. It requires solid training time and consistent practice to maintain. Cops are notorious for being bad shots and avoiding training beyond mandated minimums. For example, the guys on my friend’s squad in Philadelphia refuse to attend training and competition. It was just “a thing on our belt” to a group I worked with in Fairfax County and they thought carry dirty guns for six months was acceptable. Many will never improve their fighting skills. This complaint is old; Ed McGivern wrote extensively about it in his book “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting”, published in 1935.

RDS may help some officers, but will hinder others.

Performance study source: Karl Rehn, KR Training, Rangemaster Tac Conference, 2016
Thank you for the link. My take aways from the pod cast: Biggest issues it seems are "hunting for the dot" which needs to be found and maintained for training as you stated in your post. When you point your finger/strong had gun with red dot - is the dot there in your view? Get the repetitions in to make sure it is in every conceivable duty shooting position and then maintain it.

Biggest advantage to the normal front/rear sights is a greater filed of view in the time it takes to align them which allows faster feedback than someone new on the red dot system.

Big advantage of the red dot is follow through if subsequent hits are needed.
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  #29  
Old 10-11-2019, 7:21 PM
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From what I have heard from departments authorization RDS, (mine doesn't) the biggest hurdle preventing their use is lack of holsters. Apparently the wait time on Safariland for an RDS holster is upwards of 3 months.
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Old 11-02-2019, 7:43 AM
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My agency (in Orange County) just recently approved RDS for general duty use. So far every surrounding agency to us had also previously approved them. Our caveat is we are not allowed to use them on department issued handguns and we are completely responsible for cost and maintenance. I’ve personally decided to go with a Gen 4 Glock 34 and had the slide milled for a Trijicon RMR 06 type 2. I didn’t go with the MOS as a friend at a separate agency had reliability issues with the mounting plates during their testing.

For those questioning their durability and reliability, I recommend you check out the following article regarding the multi year study done by Sage Dynamics: https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01b...4a0c1370c2.pdf

Last edited by wrestlingnrj; 11-02-2019 at 7:46 AM..
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronlglock View Post
Many have and many more are. See https://www.officer.com/tactical/fir...stols-sidearms

Key points:
- Be extremely wary about having an existing slide machined for a RDS -- lots of horror stories. Better to go integrated. Glock MOS, SIG P320, FN and a whole lot more.
- Don't use a RDS without extensive training. SIG says you need at least 3 days of intense training before you deploy.
Good article, I have have helped write that one!
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Old 11-02-2019, 4:08 PM
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FWIW Sig is holding a few pistol mounted optic instructor courses up at LAPD for sworn personnel with POST credit.

https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/prod...ics-instructor
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Old 11-03-2019, 4:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galli1565 View Post
Good article, I have have helped write that one!

Yes sir you did and thank you for your help — and photos!!
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Old 11-03-2019, 4:51 PM
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Gov takes time to make any change...
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Old 11-03-2019, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guninator View Post
I don't think the dual illumination (no power mode) would work for me, as I am at an age where you guys can retire (at least in California) and I can barely see night sights. . (
I'm over 50 and have no problem with the dual illumination sight. The dot is always at a brightness level appropriate for the area you are in without adjusting anything. The only caveat is if you are in a dark area and aiming into a lighter area the dot will not show up well as it will be picking up light in the darker environment. Do what works for you, but the dual illumination works for my aging eyes.
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Old 11-03-2019, 9:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrkba View Post
RDS are not a game changer as asserted. There can be up to a stiff penalty in draw to first shot performance depending upon the skill of the shooter. Even high level competitors suffer a 4% loss. It requires solid training time and consistent practice to maintain. Cops are notorious for being bad shots and avoiding training beyond mandated minimums. For example, the guys on my friend’s squad in Philadelphia refuse to attend training and competition. It was just “a thing on our belt” to a group I worked with in Fairfax County and they thought carry dirty guns for six months was acceptable. Many will never improve their fighting skills. This complaint is old; Ed McGivern wrote extensively about it in his book “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting”, published in 1935.

RDS may help some officers, but will hinder others.

Performance study source: Karl Rehn, KR Training, Rangemaster Tac Conference, 2016
Couldn't agree more. I've taken quite a few handgun courses and shoot steel. Watching the new guys with rds is hilarious as their heads bob around looking for the dot. The penalty mentioned is indeed real and it takes quite a bit of training before any advantages of a rds can be realized.
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Old 11-04-2019, 2:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronlglock View Post
Yes sir you did and thank you for your help — and photos!!
Thanks again!
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Old 11-08-2019, 8:13 AM
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A little birdie told me LASD is on the verge of approving RDS, and classes may start in January. Stacatto P Duo is coming in soon for me, hopefully, so i'll hopefully get into a class with that soon and figure out a good optic.
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Old 11-21-2019, 9:09 AM
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Im one of two cops in my small department who just got approved for rds duty guns. Carrying a rmr g34 gen5 in a safariland on patrol.

We are responsible for cost of rmr as well as maintenance. This turns most people away.

Its not for everybody. I searched for the dot a lot in the beginning. But when you get proficient with them it's almost like cheating. I find shooting on the move much easier with a rds. I train often and almost exclusively on rds pistols.

I'm all in on the rds train and have been for the last two years. I off duty carried rds pistols before they where approved for duty use. I have about 10 rmr/sro. It's a sickness.

Last edited by wuhungsix; 11-21-2019 at 9:15 AM..
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Old 11-21-2019, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by realmswalker View Post
A little birdie told me LASD is on the verge of approving RDS, and classes may start in January. Stacatto P Duo is coming in soon for me, hopefully, so i'll hopefully get into a class with that soon and figure out a good optic.
I picked up a staccato p duo two months ago. It's my current off duty gun. It's as smooth as everyone says. You'll love it.
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