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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 85 8.49%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 672 67.13%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 22 2.20%
I paid too much for my Membership! 45 4.50%
They will go out of business this year! 23 2.30%
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Voters: 1001. You may not vote on this poll

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  #12361  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:46 AM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
A question about trigger modifications for the HCM test. The rules state, for Glock, that "Slightly modified triggers (no competition trigger jobs)" are allowed. What constitutes a slightly modified trigger?
Essentially stock...

Mods like an S&W performance center sear on an M&P or a Glock 34/35 disconnector on a 17.
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  #12362  
Old 10-24-2020, 5:24 AM
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I'm out here right now for a 4DDH. Came out this time with three friends. I was originally supposed to come out solo for the shotgun 4-day tactical shotgun course on Monday, then meet up with my friends Thursday for the 4DDH. Had to cancel my 4-day Tactical Shotgun class because I just have too much going on with grad school and working (going back to school in your 40's blows, btw!).

My first trip to FS was this past March and it was an absolutely amazing experience. I loved every minute of it even though my 4DDH turned into a 2.5 day course after the Governor shut the state down while I was out there and they had to shut down FS. Place seemed to run like a Swiss train back then. Everything started when it was supposed to. The instructors were amazing and went above and beyond exceeding any preconceived expectations I had. Amazing attitudes, friendly, great coaching and teaching, etc. We even had an instructor (think his name was Angelo) who was finishing up his instructor training and he taught several modules/demos (not sure what you'd call them) and he was fantastic. I was really impressed.

My buddy and I arrived early on Day 1, and we flew through check in. Not sure what happened to every one else, but us and maybe 4 other people in our class along with the instructors waited 30 minutes for the rest of the class to arrive (full class, 42 students), essentially putting us 30 minutes behind for the first half of the day. As a result, some segments and demos were skipped/omitted and everything just felt rushed. We were definitely way behind all the other classes.

The lead instructor/range master this visit so far is a bit disappointing. He just seems a bit annoyed to be there. Apparently he's been at FS for quite a while, but is coming across as a bit condescending and arrogant. Kind of has a bad attitude. Who knows, maybe he was stressed because we got off to such a late start, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hopefully things will improve today. One of the instructors is fantastic though, and has the same approach, teaching style and incredible attitude the other 4 that tough my 4DDH class in March had. I kind of feel like a jerk because I had told my friends how great the instructors were last time I was here, and just assumed they'd be just as good this time around.

Things just seem a little bit off this visit. Definitely not as organized. Maybe I just got lucky in March and got a great set of instructors. Maybe FS is still trying to work out the kinks after being closed for so ling and still have to iron out the logistics with checking in on Day 1 with new Covid regulations, etc.

My buddy and I still had a ton of fun on Day 1. My other two friends seemed a bit overwhelmed. Was interesting because they are all former military (but it's been a LONG time since they were active duty, and two of them only recently started shooting again, and all are older than me). They were all exhausted after Day 1.
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  #12363  
Old 10-24-2020, 2:32 PM
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^^ Wow, very strange that that many people showed up so late. I wonder why? Also, sucks to hear about a bad instructor. Keep us posted.
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  #12364  
Old 10-24-2020, 7:25 PM
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OK, someone wanted a synopsis of Instructor Development. Due to non-disclosure I can't be specific about what we did, but here are some pointers for anyone else who will be taking the class:
Go and take, at a minimum, the 4 day handgun beforehand. Know how things work at FS and what their technique is. Work on your technique before you get there as you will be shooting the handgun skills test several times. You don't have to get straight DGs, but you will be expected to show continuous improvement.
Be willing to learn and accept instruction. They want you to do things exactly by the book, no excuses. You will be teaching the FS method while there and no other. The instructors will try to push your buttons, so maintain thy cool and be professional at all times.
You have to be able to shoot and teach. Everyone has to memorize a random lecture block and present it to the class. Theatrical or public speaking experience will go a long way here. You'll also have to demonstrate proper coaching/troubleshooting on the line and be able to run a range, as well as set up a range in the morning and break it down in the evening.
If you're not up to par on some of this the instructors will work with you. If you aren't willing to push yourself, though, don't bother signing up. You can be dropped at any time, for any reason. September 2020 ID class started with 19 people and they only graduated 7 of us. The only ones who made it through were the ones who really wanted it. That being said, some people had basically no shooting or teaching experience, they were hired on attitude and aptitude. Oh, and make sure you have all your required paperwork and documentation. I forgot a couple of things and it made for a bureaucratic headache.

Running the handgun class with a revolver: It was really fun. My trigger control and ammo management improved enormously and I got plenty of cred with the older range staff for doing it old school.
Upsides: You can actually do two dry presses when simulating a controlled pair! You don't have to do malfunctions on the test and you get 7 seconds for all reloads (I only needed 3-4 sec). The instructors have to try to remember the revolver specific parts of their lectures (evil laughter). Speed loaders are cheaper then mags.
Downsides: Do not have a serrated trigger face or you'll get a blister on your trigger finger after day 1. .38spl is a bit pricier then 9mm and the Winchester white box the Bunker was selling was poor quality. Only 6 shots. Coming off of semi-autos that long, double action pull and different grip is frustrating to learn. You must shoot double action the entire time, no cheating and cocking the hammer back.
I highly recommend doing it, for the experience if nothing else. Running a double action revolver seems to be a dying art form, which is really a shame since plenty of people still use them for home defence. Mine is a police surplus Ruger Security Six with the factory grips and a leather holster I found on Ebay. Don't know how old it is but it looks great and runs like a top. Shot the test clean, but got two late penalties for the 7yd timed head shots.
Tip: For the tactical reloads you have to do two out, two in. It doesn't matter where you stage your spare ammo, so I stuffed two rounds into the cuff of my shooting glove. An emergency reload needs to be done with a speed loader.
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  #12365  
Old 10-24-2020, 8:37 PM
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Default Precision Rifle class: Weapons check?

To those who have taken Precision Rifle: Just confirming that we'll have a separate weapons check line?

My rifle comes stock with 3 lb trigger (Tikka TAC A1) and the manual shows how to adjust the trigger weight. At the lowest I was able to get a 1 lb 3 oz trigger weight, but I backed it off to 2 lb 2 oz.

For sure now it won't pass the regular weapons check line.

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  #12366  
Old 10-24-2020, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
To those who have taken Precision Rifle: Just confirming that we'll have a separate weapons check line?

My rifle comes stock with 3 lb trigger (Tikka TAC A1) and the manual shows how to adjust the trigger weight. At the lowest I was able to get a 1 lb 3 oz trigger weight, but I backed it off to 2 lb 2 oz.

For sure now it won't pass the regular weapons check line.

.
Unless things have changed, there was no weapons check of precision rifles. There was also no min trigger pull weight. I shot another student's rifle where the trigger pull weight was measured in ounces.
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  #12367  
Old 10-24-2020, 9:13 PM
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Vinnie,
FS has had a bunch of instructor turn over due to Covid. I have had a not so good instructor there but they are definitely far a few between. Still are a lot of the old standard there too.cant wait to go back. Let us know how you like shotgun. I Havenít taken that course yet.
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  #12368  
Old 10-24-2020, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
Unless things have changed, there was no weapons check of precision rifles. There was also no min trigger pull weight. I shot another student's rifle where the trigger pull weight was measured in ounces.
What happens after you check in at the trailer, do you just head to your range?

Thinking of accompanying my wife through weapons check. We had Cajun Guns modify her CZ Shadow 2 trigger to just over 4 lb, just because the instructors had said the Shadow 2 is an automatic fail.

.
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  #12369  
Old 10-24-2020, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
Vinnie,
FS has had a bunch of instructor turn over due to Covid. I have had a not so good instructor there but they are definitely far a few between. Still are a lot of the old standard there too.cant wait to go back. Let us know how you like shotgun. I Havenít taken that course yet.
So today was MUCH better. Instructor was way more relaxed and did a great job. The other instructor that wee all really liked on Ddy 1 was even bette Ron day 2.

Everyone seemed to have a great time today!
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  #12370  
Old 10-25-2020, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
What happens after you check in at the trailer, do you just head to your range?

Thinking of accompanying my wife through weapons check. We had Cajun Guns modify her CZ Shadow 2 trigger to just over 4 lb, just because the instructors had said the Shadow 2 is an automatic fail.

.
After you check in, you'll go to the classroom as usual for the intro and paperwork.

I don't see why you couldn't accompany your wife to inspection.
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  #12371  
Old 10-25-2020, 9:22 AM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
What happens after you check in at the trailer, do you just head to your range?
Day 1
General classes - start at outside trailer, proceed to weapons and ammo inspection, yellow necklace, put guns back into car, go to classroom and fill out paperwork, collect yellow necklace, go to assigned range.

Private class - go to admin trailer, check in, paperwork, head to assigned range.

Day 2 - direct to assigned range
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  #12372  
Old 10-25-2020, 1:59 PM
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Back from 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship and thought I'd add my thoughts. I read through all the comments from everyone on this class previously and it was a great help so hopefully mine will help someone in the future.

It was a great and extremely challenging class as has been noted numerous times. For me though, the challenge makes it really interesting and I can't wait to get back to (hopefully) DG it.

RM was Skoog. Great guy, excellent shooter, lots of experience, and a wealth of knowledge on rifle shooting, particularly long range. He's probably forgotten more that I'll ever know on the subject. He had several recommendations for books to read/study on ballistics, theory, etc.

Weather was fantastic, if a bit warm. Wind was calm throughout the class except for the afternoon of the test. Of course. Class was full of good people. Although it was a beginner level class with no prereq's required, it didn't feel like it. There were only a couple people new to FS, the rest seemed to be seasoned FS veterans and seemed like at least 50% had taken the class before. Skoog said that on average people take the class 6 times to DG it. This class really did feel significantly more difficult than the other beginner classes I've taken there.

My takeaways, many around equipment:
- According to Skoog, shooting inside 400 yards, velocity is king. More so than ballistic coefficient. So the best round for this class is something really fast as it'll shoot faster.

Gun - I shot an AR15 in 5.56 with 18" match barrel. I feel like it was an excellent choice for the class and wouldn't hesitate to run it again. The class seemed to be a split of AR platform rifles and bolt guns. Lots of AR15's in 5.56/.223, AR10's in .308/7.62 and 6.5 CM. Lots of Rem 700 based rifles and I think I saw a couple Ruger Precision Rifles. For this class you really want a gun that's lightweight and accurate. Skoog's recommendation was a scout rifle, it's reasonably lightweight, with a heavy profile barrel in a short length.

Ammo - I saw a mix of plinking/range/milsurp ammo, hunting, and match grade. Personally I ran match grade and would recommend it to everyone, assuming your gun can take advantage of it. The target you shoot at 300/350 yards is 3 MOA. If you're shooting plinking ammo you're likely looking at 2-3MOA accuracy which leaves little room for error on your part. Now, if you're shooting sub MOA, you have a lot more room for errors in holdover, less than ideal shooting fundamentals, etc.

Optics - Mostly mid-high power scopes. A few LVPO's (1-6/8x) and an ACOG. Didn't see any iron sights. I ran an Athlon Cronus 4.5-29. Overkill and heavy but that's the scope I'll run when I DG so wanted to get more familiar with it and using its reticle better. Ideally something 3-18 or 5-25 depending on your preference. Those with LVPO's were struggling at 350 yards. LVPO's are great for minute of bad guy shots at those distances but this class goes beyond that.

Test - Need -4 or better to DG. Time pressure is non-existent on the test. Although it's timed the times are so generous there's no way it would be a problem. Skoog the time limits are purely to prevent someone from taking 20 minutes waiting for wind conditions to change or chasing the elusive perfect shot. So time isn't a factor or consideration. Scoring - any misses are -1. They were pretty generous with scoring anything on the line, saying they weren't there to take it away from you, which was cool. They score by looking for the expected number of holes in each circle on the target. Protip: they said they don't count the total holes in the target. Sometimes you shoot the wrong target, sometimes someone else shoots your target, they're not going to penalize people for that. Take that as you will when you shoot the test. Someone may get confused and shoot twice rather than a single shot, especially if they see they missed the first shot. Don't abuse it though, if you have 30 holes in your target they're going to notice it. A couple extra, no problem. I shot a -7 which I suppose is respectable for my first time through the course. I may have been to DG it if it weren't for the wind. There pretty much no wind the whole time except for the test and that messed me up some. My wind corrections were always either too much or not enough. Oh well, although it's a bit of a bummer, it's life and never do bad things happen in good conditions so I wouldn't have it any other way for the test. If I can DG the test in adverse conditions I'll only do better in good ones.

I'll give my thoughts on the 3 types of shooting you do in the class, offhand, unsupported, and supported.

Offhand (35/50 y) - These were the most difficult for me. I ran a tac sling which isn't ideal for precision shooting. One of the instructors demo'ed his Rhodesian sling and it was excellent. I'm going to pick one up and practice with it for next time. Be very familiar with your sling and how to use it before the class if possible. Also experiment with different stances and grips before class if able. Try a bulls eye stance/hold, bladed, etc and hybrids between them. They let you try them a few times but IMHO it's not enough time to determine which one works best for you and you to get proficient with it. Taking the shots, try starting high above the circle and let the sigh picture slowly come down and take the shot when it's in the right spot. It's the "ambush" style and worked best for me. These shots require a big of strength. If you could use more of it, like myself, Skoog recommended a couple times a week you grab your rifle (heaviest one you have ideally) and point in with it and hold until you can't any longer. Then rest and do it again. That'll help you build those muscles up.

Unsupported (75/100 y) - They cover kneeling, sitting, and prone. I'd have liked more time to experiment with them but there's just not enough in the class for it. Try them yourself beforehand to see what you like best. Prone was best for me. Practice sling support in these positions, most people were so focused on figuring out the position they didn't have time to incorporate sling support. No part of the gun can touch the ground. Many of us went prone and placed a hand under the magazine and a pinky under the grip so it doesn't touch. I then used my head/cheekweld to control elevation. The targets you shoot at these distances are just over the MOA you shoot supported but not by much, so you need to shoot almost as accurately from these positions as you do supported.

Supported (150/200/250/300/250 y) - You can use whatever support you want. Prone of course, most used bipods and bags in the rear. Some used a pack in the front and just held the stock with their support hand. Bipod/bag for me and worked well. Recommend the short bipod height (most are offered in short/medium/high). Some people had higher ones that hindered them trying to raise themselves up to it. Shooting prone you are of course most stable when you're low/flat. The target stands are low so you don't need a tall bipod to aim at them. Remember to load your bipod. I think everyone had rubber feet on them. Next time I'll bring spikes as has been previously recommended. The feet just slip too much on the gravel. These shots were actually the easiest for me and I was consistently keeping them inside the circles.

Other pre-class basics:
- Get familiar with your gun and how to operate it. Practice with it.
- Practice mounting your rifle and your cheekweld until you get to the point you can do it consistently and mount it the same way every time and your eye relief is correct for the scope. Consistent shots and accuracy are a result of consistently running the gun the same way every shot.
- Ensure your gun likes your ammo. If you haven't, try different brands and bullet weights and see how they group.
- Trigger Weight: We had a discussion with Skoog about this. He emphatically said that the trigger requirement for RM is the same as PR, ie, it can be less than 4 lbs. I brought up that the website does list 4 lbs. for RM and they should correct it. He didn't seem to like this being brought up and in a roundabout way discouraged noting the correction in the course comments. I'm guessing that admin would "correct" this error by enforcing the 4 lb. requirement rather than removing it. Luckily my trigger is adjustable so I promptly dialed it down. Sidenote: Our favorite armorer didn't make an appearance to check triggers. Hopefully that project is dead forever.

Overall, it was a great return to FS after the closure. I saw 1 person with a mask on in the classroom for orientation, otherwise I saw 0 masks my entire time on-property. Everyone has their own views on this but myself, it was pretty amazing to return to what life was like pre-COVID for a couple days before returning to the real world.
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  #12373  
Old 10-25-2020, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
Unless things have changed, there was no weapons check of precision rifles. There was also no min trigger pull weight. I shot another student's rifle where the trigger pull weight was measured in ounces.
Can confirm per inspection this week for RM and conversation we had in class that this is still the case. For RM/PR, there is no pull weight requirement, only that the trigger doesn't trip when they hit the stock on their leg.
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  #12374  
Old 10-25-2020, 4:26 PM
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Good write up LRG. All good points. Glad the class went well for you.
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  #12375  
Old 10-25-2020, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post

My first trip to FS was this past March and it was an absolutely amazing experience. I loved every minute of it even though my 4DDH turned into a 2.5 day course after the Governor shut the state down while I was out there and they had to shut down FS.
sounds like you were out there right after me. I was there March 13-16th and the panic kind of started on day 3 or 4 of our class with many students leaving early to get home in case things started shutting down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
We even had an instructor (think his name was Angelo) who was finishing up his instructor training and he taught several modules/demos (not sure what you'd call them) and he was fantastic. I was really impressed.
Angelo is really good, he was doing a lot of lectures / demos around that time as he was preparing for his Range Master Evaluation (to go from Instructor 3 to RM) but FS shut down before he had a chance to do it.
He actually got promoted to RM two weeks ago!
Here's his IG if you're interested in dropping him a line or just following his antics. https://www.instagram.com/defendcausewelove/



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
... the instructors waited 30 minutes for the rest of the class to arrive (full class, 42 students), essentially putting us 30 minutes behind for the first half of the day. As a result, some segments and demos were skipped/omitted and everything just felt rushed. We were definitely way behind all the other classes.
holy. crap.
That's a pretty bad spot to be in. The FS regulars will probably know this but the FS curriculum is written down to the minute for when / what activities are supposed to be happening and I can't imagine being in a class where they are behind 30 minutes
That's no bueno for students or staff. Probably why the RM is so grumpy, sucks you guys are getting the short end of that deal due to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Things just seem a little bit off this visit. Definitely not as organized. Maybe I just got lucky in March and got a great set of instructors. Maybe FS is still trying to work out the kinks after being closed for so ling and still have to iron out the logistics with checking in on Day 1 with new Covid regulations, etc.

My buddy and I still had a ton of fun on Day 1. My other two friends seemed a bit overwhelmed. Was interesting because they are all former military (but it's been a LONG time since they were active duty, and two of them only recently started shooting again, and all are older than me). They were all exhausted after Day 1.
One of the cool things about a large training staff like Front Sight's is the wide array of instructors you'll get to work with. Inherently some are more experienced / more fun than others but I guess I've always been lucky as a student and gotten great staff.
Happy to hear you guys are having fun still, that's one of the most important things (2nd to being safe) so at least the grumpy RM isn't totally ruining things for your group.
Being overwhelmed is pretty normal for most guys, even military.
I had a few buddies who served in a unit together go out for a pistol class at Front Sight and I got the funniest phone call from them after day 2 as they were frantically dry practicing in their hotel room because they said, "this freaking class is kicking our asses"

Glad to hear day 2 is much better and everyone is having fun again, including the staff.
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  #12376  
Old 10-25-2020, 6:28 PM
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Ken, congrats on getting through ID!
How many classes had you taken previously?

Are you planning on working part time? full time?


thanks for the ID Class rundown, we appreciate it.
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  #12377  
Old 10-25-2020, 8:36 PM
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Great write up, LRG. Yeah, Josh Skoog is a great RM.

Some comments to add. On purpose I started lifting weights a few months before taking this class and still couldn't hold the rifle steady while standing unsupported. For me, muscle strength did not help and it was a matter of using bone support to keep me steady. I adopted a Camp Perry type of posture:

and leaned back further to get the most contact between the support side elbow and chest. Not good for quick follow up shots as in Practical Rifle, but I got more hits.

The key for me was a light and accurate rifle. I got a Larue AR with pencil barrel for my second class and had a much easier time than the first. Similarly, I chose a lightweight LPVO scope to save weight. To me 8x was enough for 350 yd shots.

Agree trying through different kinds of ammo with your rifle is very important. Even different brands make a difference. Match ammo, for me, is a must, but I shot the class during a time of plenty.

How many peeps DGed?

.
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  #12378  
Old 10-25-2020, 8:48 PM
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I envy those who either live close to Front Sight and/or have many opportunities to drive to Pahrump and take multi-day classes! If I had the luxury - I would just be going to FS for most of my tactical/defensive training across different weapons platforms. Unfortunately, my situation doesn't allow me to... Hence, I take classes that are locally accessible and on the weekends.

That said on this - just to share on this weekend's experience: I had my first scare in a tactical/defensive class!?! Of course, I have a few when shooting in public ranges...


At the end of the class after the certificates were handed out, the shooter sitting in front of me unclasp his holstered pistol from his belt, and proceeded to unholster the pistol with the muzzle straight at me!?! At point-blank-range!!! (He was a CA CCW holder and I would surmise he is proceeding to re-arm his firearm).

I called him out, "What the hell are you doing pointing that weapon at me?" All he could respond with is "sorry."

It was fortunate that we have gone through an administrative reload... But then!!!

I had a couple of PM with a classmate that I just found out is also an FS student. We both agree that Front Sight is on a different level. Thank you to FS!!!

Am thinking of crossing out this school from my list of local go-tos...


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  #12379  
Old 10-26-2020, 7:17 AM
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Agree, once we get used to FS safety standards, it is hard to let it go. Once I was in another school where we did a lot of team tactics. At first I felt very uncomfortable running, maneuvering and crawling with other guys with loaded rifles around and right behind me, but fortunately it was not a beginners class and everyone was very professional.
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  #12380  
Old 10-26-2020, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
sounds like you were out there right after me. I was there March 13-16th and the panic kind of started on day 3 or 4 of our class with many students leaving early to get home in case things started shutting down.


Angelo is really good, he was doing a lot of lectures / demos around that time as he was preparing for his Range Master Evaluation (to go from Instructor 3 to RM) but FS shut down before he had a chance to do it.
He actually got promoted to RM two weeks ago!
Here's his IG if you're interested in dropping him a line or just following his antics. https://www.instagram.com/defendcausewelove/




holy. crap.
That's a pretty bad spot to be in. The FS regulars will probably know this but the FS curriculum is written down to the minute for when / what activities are supposed to be happening and I can't imagine being in a class where they are behind 30 minutes
That's no bueno for students or staff. Probably why the RM is so grumpy, sucks you guys are getting the short end of that deal due to it.




One of the cool things about a large training staff like Front Sight's is the wide array of instructors you'll get to work with. Inherently some are more experienced / more fun than others but I guess I've always been lucky as a student and gotten great staff.
Happy to hear you guys are having fun still, that's one of the most important things (2nd to being safe) so at least the grumpy RM isn't totally ruining things for your group.
Being overwhelmed is pretty normal for most guys, even military.
I had a few buddies who served in a unit together go out for a pistol class at Front Sight and I got the funniest phone call from them after day 2 as they were frantically dry practicing in their hotel room because they said, "this freaking class is kicking our asses"

Glad to hear day 2 is much better and everyone is having fun again, including the staff.
That's great to hear about Angelo. He really was exceptional when he was going through his evaluation for our class. Makes sense now why all the other range masters were so good. My guess is they were all there to evaluate and watch him.

So today was the end of day 4. It was crazy. Temps int he 30's and WINDY. Like windy enough to take out have the chairs, table, targets wouldn't stay on. the dust was so bad you couldn't see at times. It was so bad shortly after we started class they were told on the radio that we were not going to be doing any presentations from concealment for the entire day because of safety reasons. Needless to say it just made everything more challenging. I actually ended up liking our rangemaster. I'll chalk up the first day to him being stressed out due to the late start, but with that said we did seem to be behind compared to the other classes on adjacent ranges, but we did have a lot of people in our class who didn't seem to have any sense of urgency taping, getting back into our seats after firing drills, etc. We also had 3 negligent discharges. 2 of them were from he same person! Also a couple times when someone tried to remove their weapon from it's holster off the line, bending over on the firing line during an exercise, turning around on the firing line with weapon in hand, etc. Sorry to day that everyone who did this was older (50-60+ year olds). The younger crowd was very safe. All around though we had some great people in our group.

I came out with three friends. All of them older than me, all former military MP and police officer. My buddy I drove out with is super chill and laid back and very humble. Never been to FS and finished with a Graduate certificate.

The other two were a co-worker and her husband. Late 50's/Early 60's, former Army vets. They were a PITA. Arguing with the range masters, complaining, making excuses for everything. I got tired of it and my buddy and I just sort of distanced ourselves from them. Needless to say, I won't be inviting them back. Neither of them G'd or DG'd and at first weren't going to take the test. Lame.

I feel like I've improved a ton since the 2.5 day DH class I took in march (the 4DDH was cut short in March due to Covid shutdown). I was doing great on the test. after the first part, but blew it with the malfunctions and just overall a little slow. The 92FS can make things a little tougher all around. Was considering getting a striker fire gun after this class, but I think I'm just going to stick with the 92FS and just practice more. Just think it will would be nice to graduate G or DG with the Beretta!

Somer takeaways from this experience...be prepared for the weather to change, and change fast. Both times I've been to FS in March and October it was in the upper 80's one day, and 30's on other days in the morning. Had a warm, lightweight insulated jacket and a Patagonias expedition weight fleece shirt. Silk weight long underwear would have been great. Adds a little warmth under your pants but not so warm that you'd be miserable once the sun comes up. I hate wearing shooting gloves, but reluctantly wore them (Pig shooting gloves) because it was so cold and those gloves were amazing. I also brought a knit beanie with a brim that was a GAME CHNAGER. I was the only person there with an insulated hat or any sort besides the instructors. Really helped with the cold and wind.
I knew this before, but want to reinforce...wear comfortable, supportive shoes or boots. Lots of people there with sneakers, Vans or Chuck Taylors on, and they hated the gravel. I've worn both Red Wing Mac toes and a pair of Danner South Rim's and both were fantastic.

Finally, I switched to in-ear hearing protection. Will be hard going back to ear muffs. Lighter weight, way more comfortable, way cooler on hot days, and the ones I used were very impressive.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:00 PM
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I envy those who either live close to Front Sight and/or have many opportunities to drive to Pahrump and take multi-day classes! If I had the luxury - I would just be going to FS for most of my tactical/defensive training across different weapons platforms. Unfortunately, my situation doesn't allow me to... Hence, I take classes that are locally accessible and on the weekends.

That said on this - just to share on this weekend's experience: I had my first scare in a tactical/defensive class!?! Of course, I have a few when shooting in public ranges...


At the end of the class after the certificates were handed out, the shooter sitting in front of me unclasp his holstered pistol from his belt, and proceeded to unholster the pistol with the muzzle straight at me!?! At point-blank-range!!! (He was a CA CCW holder and I would surmise he is proceeding to re-arm his firearm).

I called him out, "What the hell are you doing pointing that weapon at me?" All he could respond with is "sorry."

It was fortunate that we have gone through an administrative reload... But then!!!

I had a couple of PM with a classmate that I just found out is also an FS student. We both agree that Front Sight is on a different level. Thank you to FS!!!

Am thinking of crossing out this school from my list of local go-tos...


_
FS is not immune from having students with poor weapons handling or judgement, but given the amount of students they have annually, they're pretty safe overall. I've experienced a few (I've probably forgotten a few):

- A guy next to me on the line was holstering his Hi-Power and the hammer fell

- A guy next to my buddy ND'd 5-6 ft in front of himself while on the line.

- There was a student who was like 80 years old and slow as molasses. The guy was a trooper and did not quit. You know that setting up certain malfunctions require Glock shooters trip their triggers. And you know that during the test, malfunctions are repeated a couple of times. During the test that guy was so slow, that when the line was setting up for the second repetition of a malfunction test, he was just completing the first one. Right after the instruction announced "Glock shooters, trip your triggers", the guy just finished the clearance by chambering a round. I thought he was going to ND by tripping the trigger. I alerted the RM.

- During an advanced rifle class, a student while performing a drill, turned and flagged everybody with a loaded rifle leveled at all of us.

- In another adv rifle class, while performing a drill in the supine, I flagged my leg with a pistol. The instructor said it happens in real life, no big deal.

- In another adv rifle class, I tripped retreating backwards and flagged the instructor downrange (that's what he told me.) I never forgot that one. From then on, when retreating backwards, I perform a 180 periodically while moving with the weapon in sul to check where I'm going. (I actually received applause from other students when doing that once. I didn't know what the hell they were clapping for until somebody told me much later.)

- Seeing the firetruck and medivac coming in is a sure sign somebody eff'd up.

And there are the instances of property damage, but I won't mention those.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Great write up, LRG. Yeah, Josh Skoog is a great RM.

Some comments to add. On purpose I started lifting weights a few months before taking this class and still couldn't hold the rifle steady while standing unsupported. For me, muscle strength did not help and it was a matter of using bone support to keep me steady. I adopted a Camp Perry type of posture:

and leaned back further to get the most contact between the support side elbow and chest. Not good for quick follow up shots as in Practical Rifle, but I got more hits.

The key for me was a light and accurate rifle. I got a Larue AR with pencil barrel for my second class and had a much easier time than the first. Similarly, I chose a lightweight LPVO scope to save weight. To me 8x was enough for 350 yd shots.

Agree trying through different kinds of ammo with your rifle is very important. Even different brands make a difference. Match ammo, for me, is a must, but I shot the class during a time of plenty.

How many peeps DGed?

.
Thanks for the tips, I'm going to put a little more effort into building strength because I need to anyway. I kind of did a hybrid Camp Perry and bladed stance for the offhand shots. I tried the full Camp Perry stance but couldn't get it dialed in enough in the limited amount of time we had practicing those shots. The offhanded shots were by far what I struggled with vs. the others. I'm going to spend some time dialing in the Camp Perry stance, I agree that bone support will work better than muscling it. I can't wait to get back in a couple months to do the SB and hopefully get the DG.

I'm not sure how many DG'ed my class. The usual flight I take home isn't being run currently so I had to take an earlier one and was forced to leave about 30 minutes before the end of class. I saw about 2/3 of the line for my relay and I only saw 1 DG, I don't think there were many.
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  #12383  
Old 10-27-2020, 7:02 AM
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Can anyone explain the letter codes on the Skills Test?

What does L, LL, LP & P mean?

I'm trying to figure out how I did and what I need to practice and improve. I thought I botched the malfunction drills but apparently only got a total of 6 points off for those and 14 points off for accuracy during the first part. Apparently what crushed me were points taken off for time during the shooting portion, but my accuracy was pretty good. I talked to one of the instructors after and he said I just need to get faster and more efficient. I have a fast presentation, but then I'm clunky getting on sight, messing with my grip, etc. All that needs to be dialed in. And although I got the ZZType 3 malfunction down, I just need to fine tune it and speed it up to get it within the time limit.

I really loved this feedback and it tells me exactly what I need to work on (which is everything!). Now I understand why striker fire handguns are preferred. The DA/SA poses it's own challenges, but I'm willing to work on that and master it over time with lots of dry practice at home. Did awesome at the end with the hostage targets and shot all 6 headshots clean. I turned my 92FS into a decoder only (first time I was at FS I kept engaging the safety during the malfunction drills). Also installed the D spring and an oversized mag release after that first FS trip and saw a lot of improvement this time around.
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Old 10-27-2020, 8:18 AM
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L is late and LL is late late?
P is Procedural? LP late procedural?
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Old 10-27-2020, 9:00 AM
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Never fear, Jedi is here.
When looking at the master score sheet you'll see two possible letter combos in the box since the exercise is usually performed twice (exception are the Des Head @ 5 yds which you do 5 times)

L = Late
P = Procedural

LL would indicate both shots were late
LP = 1st late, 2nd had a procedural
Etc
For scoring on this test you're only docked for either the Late or the Procedural, never both.

Hope that helps.


Vinnie, who was the RM? Sounds like you guys really enjoyed having him once everyone got through Day 1.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
That's great to hear about Angelo. He really was exceptional when he was going through his evaluation for our class. Makes sense now why all the other range masters were so good. My guess is they were all there to evaluate and watch him.

So today was the end of day 4. It was crazy. Temps int he 30's and WINDY. Like windy enough to take out have the chairs, table, targets wouldn't stay on. the dust was so bad you couldn't see at times. It was so bad shortly after we started class they were told on the radio that we were not going to be doing any presentations from concealment for the entire day because of safety reasons. Needless to say it just made everything more challenging. I actually ended up liking our rangemaster. I'll chalk up the first day to him being stressed out due to the late start, but with that said we did seem to be behind compared to the other classes on adjacent ranges, but we did have a lot of people in our class who didn't seem to have any sense of urgency taping, getting back into our seats after firing drills, etc. We also had 3 negligent discharges. 2 of them were from he same person! Also a couple times when someone tried to remove their weapon from it's holster off the line, bending over on the firing line during an exercise, turning around on the firing line with weapon in hand, etc. Sorry to day that everyone who did this was older (50-60+ year olds). The younger crowd was very safe. All around though we had some great people in our group.

I came out with three friends. All of them older than me, all former military MP and police officer. My buddy I drove out with is super chill and laid back and very humble. Never been to FS and finished with a Graduate certificate.

The other two were a co-worker and her husband. Late 50's/Early 60's, former Army vets. They were a PITA. Arguing with the range masters, complaining, making excuses for everything. I got tired of it and my buddy and I just sort of distanced ourselves from them. Needless to say, I won't be inviting them back. Neither of them G'd or DG'd and at first weren't going to take the test. Lame.

I feel like I've improved a ton since the 2.5 day DH class I took in march (the 4DDH was cut short in March due to Covid shutdown). I was doing great on the test. after the first part, but blew it with the malfunctions and just overall a little slow. The 92FS can make things a little tougher all around. Was considering getting a striker fire gun after this class, but I think I'm just going to stick with the 92FS and just practice more. Just think it will would be nice to graduate G or DG with the Beretta!

Somer takeaways from this experience...be prepared for the weather to change, and change fast. Both times I've been to FS in March and October it was in the upper 80's one day, and 30's on other days in the morning. Had a warm, lightweight insulated jacket and a Patagonias expedition weight fleece shirt. Silk weight long underwear would have been great. Adds a little warmth under your pants but not so warm that you'd be miserable once the sun comes up. I hate wearing shooting gloves, but reluctantly wore them (Pig shooting gloves) because it was so cold and those gloves were amazing. I also brought a knit beanie with a brim that was a GAME CHNAGER. I was the only person there with an insulated hat or any sort besides the instructors. Really helped with the cold and wind.
I knew this before, but want to reinforce...wear comfortable, supportive shoes or boots. Lots of people there with sneakers, Vans or Chuck Taylors on, and they hated the gravel. I've worn both Red Wing Mac toes and a pair of Danner South Rim's and both were fantastic.

Finally, I switched to in-ear hearing protection. Will be hard going back to ear muffs. Lighter weight, way more comfortable, way cooler on hot days, and the ones I used were very impressive.
Which in-ear did you use?
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
That's great to hear about Angelo. He really was exceptional when he was going through his evaluation for our class. Makes sense now why all the other range masters were so good. My guess is they were all there to evaluate and watch him.

So today was the end of day 4. It was crazy. Temps int he 30's and WINDY. Like windy enough to take out have the chairs, table, targets wouldn't stay on. the dust was so bad you couldn't see at times. It was so bad shortly after we started class they were told on the radio that we were not going to be doing any presentations from concealment for the entire day because of safety reasons. Needless to say it just made everything more challenging. I actually ended up liking our rangemaster. I'll chalk up the first day to him being stressed out due to the late start, but with that said we did seem to be behind compared to the other classes on adjacent ranges, but we did have a lot of people in our class who didn't seem to have any sense of urgency taping, getting back into our seats after firing drills, etc. We also had 3 negligent discharges. 2 of them were from he same person! Also a couple times when someone tried to remove their weapon from it's holster off the line, bending over on the firing line during an exercise, turning around on the firing line with weapon in hand, etc. Sorry to day that everyone who did this was older (50-60+ year olds). The younger crowd was very safe. All around though we had some great people in our group.

I came out with three friends. All of them older than me, all former military MP and police officer. My buddy I drove out with is super chill and laid back and very humble. Never been to FS and finished with a Graduate certificate.

The other two were a co-worker and her husband. Late 50's/Early 60's, former Army vets. They were a PITA. Arguing with the range masters, complaining, making excuses for everything. I got tired of it and my buddy and I just sort of distanced ourselves from them. Needless to say, I won't be inviting them back. Neither of them G'd or DG'd and at first weren't going to take the test. Lame.

I feel like I've improved a ton since the 2.5 day DH class I took in march (the 4DDH was cut short in March due to Covid shutdown). I was doing great on the test. after the first part, but blew it with the malfunctions and just overall a little slow. The 92FS can make things a little tougher all around. Was considering getting a striker fire gun after this class, but I think I'm just going to stick with the 92FS and just practice more. Just think it will would be nice to graduate G or DG with the Beretta!

Somer takeaways from this experience...be prepared for the weather to change, and change fast. Both times I've been to FS in March and October it was in the upper 80's one day, and 30's on other days in the morning. Had a warm, lightweight insulated jacket and a Patagonias expedition weight fleece shirt. Silk weight long underwear would have been great. Adds a little warmth under your pants but not so warm that you'd be miserable once the sun comes up. I hate wearing shooting gloves, but reluctantly wore them (Pig shooting gloves) because it was so cold and those gloves were amazing. I also brought a knit beanie with a brim that was a GAME CHNAGER. I was the only person there with an insulated hat or any sort besides the instructors. Really helped with the cold and wind.
I knew this before, but want to reinforce...wear comfortable, supportive shoes or boots. Lots of people there with sneakers, Vans or Chuck Taylors on, and they hated the gravel. I've worn both Red Wing Mac toes and a pair of Danner South Rim's and both were fantastic.

Finally, I switched to in-ear hearing protection. Will be hard going back to ear muffs. Lighter weight, way more comfortable, way cooler on hot days, and the ones I used were very impressive.
Hey there! I also finished day four of Defensive gun course yesterday.
I was at range 31 and my RG was Tucker.
He also was kind of stressed about finishing on time.
We were 42 shooters.
It was my first time and Iím very impressed.
Iíll post about my experience a little later tonight.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:36 AM
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Never fear, Jedi is here.


L = Late
P = Procedural

LL would indicate both shots were late
LP = 1st late, 2nd had a procedural
Etc
For scoring on this test you're only docked for either the Late or the Procedural, never both.
.
Jedi, was it always like this. I thought I remembered that you could be both late and wrong on the malfunctions. In the same way you can be late and shoot a miss on the target?

It could be my flawed memory though.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:12 PM
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For the 4DDHG it's only one or the other for scoring purposes.
When you get to Master Prep, different story.

I was on Paul Beaunex's range and heard him talking to a new Line Coach and he said, "just watch for procedurals. If they did it wrong they're probably also late so just hit him for whatever you see first.

Last edited by Jedi54; 10-27-2020 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 10-27-2020, 1:54 PM
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Jedi, was it always like this. I thought I remembered that you could be both late and wrong on the malfunctions. In the same way you can be late and shoot a miss on the target?

It could be my flawed memory though.
It's been that way for at least 5 years though I had one overly-zealous guy ding me for both. I didn't bother arguing because I wouldn't have DG'd anyway.
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Old 10-27-2020, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Jedi, was it always like this. I thought I remembered that you could be both late and wrong on the malfunctions. In the same way you can be late and shoot a miss on the target?

It could be my flawed memory though.
What are you worried about??? You'd DG the 4DDHG test anytime of the day, any day of the week...

Happy Tuesday!!!


_
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Old 10-27-2020, 9:00 PM
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Just got home yesterday from the 4DDHG. I finally got my DG back (last one was 2015) but the highlight was my daughter going from CA to G this time. Larry Barajas was our RM. Day 4 skills test was a challenge with upper 30ís temps and 15-20 mph winds. Many left Monday before the test which was too bad.
We had 12 in our group. One DGíd his first time out. It was great to see FS running as usual. Looks for the Tactical Handgun in Jan 2021.
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Old 10-27-2020, 9:08 PM
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congrats to your daughter and for you getting your DG again.
Tac HG in Jan will be cold so this weekend was good practice for that.
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Old 10-27-2020, 9:43 PM
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What are you worried about??? You'd DG the 4DDHG test anytime of the day, any day of the week...

Happy Tuesday!!!


_
Rod, it was not about me. I DG'd a long time ago. I was just trying to remember correctly. On my very first trip back in 2012, I just G'ed the 4Dday. I went back later in the year for a skill builder. I shot really good and I remember thinking, before the type 3 malfunctions, that I would just take my time and do it perfect so I would only lose points for being late. The funny thing was, that once I took the pressure off, I smoked them and got the DG. I never thought about it again until these previous posts. I guess I was wrong way back then. It sucks to get old...LOL.

The time after that, I was almost cheating. I took my M&P. That gun would auto-forward when you slammed in a mag. I never had to touch the slide release during that whole class.. Much easier to do a emergency reload or type 3 when the gun racks itself.
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Old 10-28-2020, 7:49 AM
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Congrats, Northbay. How old is your daughter?

Mine agreed to go to FS for a 2DDHG after a lot of prodding and promise to pay for her LASIK surgery. Well, she is a bit of a liberal, but at least she isnít voting

.
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:04 PM
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Congrats, Northbay. How old is your daughter?

Mine agreed to go to FS for a 2DDHG after a lot of prodding and promise to pay for her LASIK surgery. Well, she is a bit of a liberal, but at least she isnít voting

.
Beanz2,
my daughter is 17 and my son 14. They both shoot my 10/22 lights out. Within 5 rounds they were both x ring at 25 yards using the stock iron sights. My daughter can draw, shoot and re-holster safely, but does not have the hand strength to rack the slide on any of my striker fired guns efficiently. She also needs the uplula to load mags. I don't think she could load mags while standing as a coach on the line. She would need to go back to the chairs. Either that or I would have to load a lot of mags..LOL.

That being said, she bugs me about every two months to go to FS. I think I might just do a private with her and I to replicate the 2 day HG and see where it goes.
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Beanz2,
my daughter is 17 and my son 14. They both shoot my 10/22 lights out. Within 5 rounds they were both x ring at 25 yards using the stock iron sights. My daughter can draw, shoot and re-holster safely, but does not have the hand strength to rack the slide on any of my striker fired guns efficiently. She also needs the uplula to load mags. I don't think she could load mags while standing as a coach on the line. She would need to go back to the chairs. Either that or I would have to load a lot of mags..LOL.

That being said, she bugs me about every two months to go to FS. I think I might just do a private with her and I to replicate the 2 day HG and see where it goes.

I bet within a few tries she will be able to rack the slide effectively. I took my 16 year old daughter and she excelled quickly.
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
FS is not immune from having students with poor weapons handling or judgement, but given the amount of students they have annually, they're pretty safe overall. I've experienced a few (I've probably forgotten a few):

- A guy next to me on the line was holstering his Hi-Power and the hammer fell

- A guy next to my buddy ND'd 5-6 ft in front of himself while on the line.

- There was a student who was like 80 years old and slow as molasses. The guy was a trooper and did not quit. You know that setting up certain malfunctions require Glock shooters trip their triggers. And you know that during the test, malfunctions are repeated a couple of times. During the test that guy was so slow, that when the line was setting up for the second repetition of a malfunction test, he was just completing the first one. Right after the instruction announced "Glock shooters, trip your triggers", the guy just finished the clearance by chambering a round. I thought he was going to ND by tripping the trigger. I alerted the RM.

- During an advanced rifle class, a student while performing a drill, turned and flagged everybody with a loaded rifle leveled at all of us.

- In another adv rifle class, while performing a drill in the supine, I flagged my leg with a pistol. The instructor said it happens in real life, no big deal.

- In another adv rifle class, I tripped retreating backwards and flagged the instructor downrange (that's what he told me.) I never forgot that one. From then on, when retreating backwards, I perform a 180 periodically while moving with the weapon in sul to check where I'm going. (I actually received applause from other students when doing that once. I didn't know what the hell they were clapping for until somebody told me much later.)

- Seeing the firetruck and medivac coming in is a sure sign somebody eff'd up.

And there are the instances of property damage, but I won't mention those.
I will add my two cents...absolutely no one is immune from the AD/ND or doing something dangerous. Loaded guns are dangerous. All the rules and procedures are great to help mitigate the possibility of doing something where someone gets hurt.

If you have been around guns long enough you are essentially guaranteed to have an unintentional discharge. I've personally had 3 in 45 years of shooting regularly. By benefit of training (and perhaps even dumb luck) the muzzle was always pointed in a safe direction and no on was ever physically hurt.

Its pretty much like riding a motorcycle - there are those who have already gone down, and those who will go down (or down again)

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  #12399  
Old 10-29-2020, 5:07 PM
cjbruin cjbruin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Beanz2,
my daughter is 17 and my son 14. They both shoot my 10/22 lights out. Within 5 rounds they were both x ring at 25 yards using the stock iron sights. My daughter can draw, shoot and re-holster safely, but does not have the hand strength to rack the slide on any of my striker fired guns efficiently. She also needs the uplula to load mags. I don't think she could load mags while standing as a coach on the line. She would need to go back to the chairs. Either that or I would have to load a lot of mags..LOL.

That being said, she bugs me about every two months to go to FS. I think I might just do a private with her and I to replicate the 2 day HG and see where it goes.
My wife had a tad of difficulty for the first couple of days. Through repetition, it became easier. They have plenty of strength.
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  #12400  
Old 10-29-2020, 7:05 PM
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Divehobo Divehobo is offline
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Took my 13 yr old daughter a few years ago. We rented gear from FS figuring recoil spring on 4" XD that had seen thousands of rounds would be way easier to rack than her 5"XD tactical. Worked out just as I hoped and she had no issues during the two day private with fighting the slide.

Private booked for end of March with my 13 yr old son. He will have same issue with slide and I'll probably rent gear for him from FS again.
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