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  #41  
Old 02-28-2022, 12:40 PM
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IIRC for, Advanced Skills Test, peripheral hits are -3 regardless of caliber. HCM peripheral hits are -3 for Major Caliber, -4 for Minor. So if one is shooting Minor, that created an additional gap in difficulty for score.

FS Trivia of the day, there was a period of time where the Advanced Handgun class was effectively a 'handgun combat master prep prep' which focused on the Advanced Skills Test and also taught the beginnings of the additional skills needed for HCMP.
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  #42  
Old 02-28-2022, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Got it.

Then the HCM times are (on average) an ADDITIONAL 0.4 secs quicker than your posted times for the Advanced Test.

For the HCM test, the box is set 0.4 quicker than your posted time....
Correct! In my written notes I have that noted 0.3~0.6 difference based on what John told me... Also, I had reconfirmed in the HCMP manual.

I did not add to the spreadsheet to not confuse with MIN/MAX based on calibration.


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  #43  
Old 02-28-2022, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
It’s been quite a few years since taking the advanced test..

Is the Advanced Test on CALIBRATED TARGETS?

Or are the times set on the box?

Calibrated targets?


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  #44  
Old 02-28-2022, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dad4mnc View Post
Calibrated targets?


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The HCM Test times published are the times for use with a Shot Timer. If the RM had each student shoot individually on a Shot Timer, any shot beyond the published times would be counted as late (-5 points).

For turning targets, each "box" and set-up is slightly different, and varies with temperature and the air pressure at test time. For an official HCM test, the targets are calibrated against a shot timer immediately before testing, and again before Hostage targets.

In addition, when comparing a Shot Timer to a turning target, should you time for the beginning of the target turning away, or the end - fully closed? By FS rules, you split the difference. The calibration of the turning target against the timer is done to the point where the targets are half closed (45 degree angle).

Calibration is done at 1.0 seconds, 1.3 seconds, and 1.5 seconds and those calibration offset times are used for the corresponding shots on the test.

Currently, the most common "average" calibration is -0.3 seconds for close contact, and -0.4 seconds for the rest of the test.

Thus for close contact, the box will be set at 0.7 seconds (1.0 - 0.3), for Hostage Targets, the box will be set at 1.1 seconds (1.5 - 0.4).
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  #45  
Old 02-28-2022, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
The HCM Test times published are the times for use with a Shot Timer. If the RM had each student shoot individually on a Shot Timer, any shot beyond the published times would be counted as late (-5 points).

For turning targets, each "box" and set-up is slightly different, and varies with temperature and the air pressure at test time. For an official HCM test, the targets are calibrated against a shot timer immediately before testing, and again before Hostage targets.

In addition, when comparing a Shot Timer to a turning target, should you time for the beginning of the target turning away, or the end - fully closed? By FS rules, you split the difference. The calibration of the turning target against the timer is done to the point where the targets are half closed (45 degree angle).

Calibration is done at 1.0 seconds, 1.3 seconds, and 1.5 seconds and those calibration offset times are used for the corresponding shots on the test.

Currently, the most common "average" calibration is -0.3 seconds for close contact, and -0.4 seconds for the rest of the test.

Thus for close contact, the box will be set at 0.7 seconds (1.0 - 0.3), for Hostage Targets, the box will be set at 1.1 seconds (1.5 - 0.4).

Thanks! I had no idea.


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  #46  
Old 03-01-2022, 9:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
The HCM Test times published are the times for use with a Shot Timer. If the RM had each student shoot individually on a Shot Timer, any shot beyond the published times would be counted as late (-5 points).

For turning targets, each "box" and set-up is slightly different, and varies with temperature and the air pressure at test time. For an official HCM test, the targets are calibrated against a shot timer immediately before testing, and again before Hostage targets.

In addition, when comparing a Shot Timer to a turning target, should you time for the beginning of the target turning away, or the end - fully closed? By FS rules, you split the difference. The calibration of the turning target against the timer is done to the point where the targets are half closed (45 degree angle).

Calibration is done at 1.0 seconds, 1.3 seconds, and 1.5 seconds and those calibration offset times are used for the corresponding shots on the test.

Currently, the most common "average" calibration is -0.3 seconds for close contact, and -0.4 seconds for the rest of the test.

Thus for close contact, the box will be set at 0.7 seconds (1.0 - 0.3), for Hostage Targets, the box will be set at 1.1 seconds (1.5 - 0.4).
Do you have to stand at the center or can you step off to the left to gain that split second when the targets are turning to face you and then turning back?
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  #47  
Old 03-01-2022, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Do you have to stand at the center or can you step off to the left to gain that split second when the targets are turning to face you and then turning back?
The history and ethos of the Handgun Combat Master Test is that the shooter should NOT be doing anything to "game the test" or take "advantage". This includes equipment and how you approach the test. This is part of the essence and the spirit of the test. All are welcome to join the club, but you have to make it in just like the guys before you. The "certificate" would be meaningless if you gamed it.

The rules state that the shooter should be "directly in front of their assigned target" and prohibits "purposefully aligning yourself to the Left". Your feet should "straddle the midline of the target" .

For the Ambi-dexterous drill and Multiples, IF SHOOTING LEFT TO RIGHT, you must stand in front of your LAST target, so as not to gain any advantage.
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  #48  
Old 03-12-2022, 4:21 PM
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anyone going to be out at FS the weekend of the 25th?
Weather is looking good for our 4 day rifle class so was wondering if any other calgunners would be on property.
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  #49  
Old 03-25-2022, 7:09 AM
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About 350 students on property this weekend. Weather is high 80's for the first three days and then we drop into the low 60's and possible rain on test day. Should be fun
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  #50  
Old 03-25-2022, 4:50 PM
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About 350 students on property this weekend. Weather is high 80's for the first three days and then we drop into the low 60's and possible rain on test day. Should be fun
Thanks for the update, looking forward to hearing about your experience. I'm doing the same class next month.

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  #51  
Old 03-26-2022, 4:19 AM
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Quick assessment , everything is running just like normal.
53 on our Range and day one went great.

Oh and learned that RM Frank Shinault broke a World record last year for tightest 5 shot group at 1k yards with a 50 cal.
He was one of the staff members on our Range .
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...A-50cal-1000yd
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  #52  
Old 03-26-2022, 4:51 AM
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That is great for Frank. It is good to see he is out there pushing the limits.
Thanks for sharing and glad the training is going well
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  #53  
Old 03-26-2022, 7:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Quick assessment , everything is running just like normal.
53 on our Range and day one went great.

Oh and learned that RM Frank Shinault broke a World record last year for tightest 5 shot group at 1k yards with a 50 cal.
He was one of the staff members on our Range .
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...A-50cal-1000yd
Good to hear he stayed on. Which rifle RMs stayed? Arch? Josh? Cress?
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  #54  
Old 03-26-2022, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
That is great for Frank. It is good to see he is out there pushing the limits.
Thanks for sharing and glad the training is going well
Way to go Frank!

One of the comments in the forum posted had this to say about Frank:

"I have seen some of the top shooters and this guy without a spotter is probably the best right now."
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  #55  
Old 03-30-2022, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
About 350 students on property this weekend. Weather is high 80's for the first three days and then we drop into the low 60's and possible rain on test day. Should be fun
How did the class finish out?
I am headed out tommoropw night for a Fri-Sat 2-day skill builder.
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  #56  
Old 03-30-2022, 5:40 PM
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Class was great.
we lost almost half the class after day 2 as many of them were only signed up for 2 days.
Was nice to shoot the course at full round count, last time I did it we were still at the reduced ammo counts.

Had a lot of great RM's / Instructors on our range over the 4 days and as always James Booth ran a hell of a class.

Zero DG's on the test.
I missed it by 4 when I shanked a head shot at 25.
closest to it after that was down 16 points (missed it by 1)

I'll probably be back out there in about 3 weeks
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  #57  
Old 03-30-2022, 7:50 PM
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Nice. Thanks for the update.
Did you get rain?
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  #58  
Old 03-30-2022, 8:39 PM
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It was in the forecast but didn't get any on Day 4.
Drove straight home after the class and definitely got lots of rain during that drive.
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  #59  
Old 03-31-2022, 9:30 PM
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quick question on memberships: Does anyone know if I transfer a membership to a friend, will they be subject to the new daily fees similar to Gold Status or not?

Thanks.
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  #60  
Old 04-01-2022, 8:59 AM
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They will automatically have to go by the New Deal like gold status.
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  #61  
Old 04-04-2022, 9:00 AM
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I had a great time on range 24. We started out with 9 and ended with 7 students. We just ran one relay the entire time. James Booth was our range master. Frank Shinault was assisting on day one. I got to congratulate him on his world record. He talked about it a little with my son and I. Pretty amazing. He didn't even own the rifle, but the manufacturer made him a custom rig now. NICE!

I shot my Mossberg 930 SPX in the class. My son shot most of the class with a Benelli M4 and switched to a Beretta 1301 for a little. I think he is leaning on the Beretta a little more. He is 3 for 3 DJ of that class. Each time with a different shotgun. I only ever graduate each time. I'm just not that good, but improve each time. I signed up for the test class June 5th. Maybe that will help?

There is one thing that has changed in the test. On the port load drill, they don't start the begin beep until after you are instructed to point in, trip the trigger and put your finger straight. Saves a lot of time. Side saddle and match saver is the only way i stand a chance on that drill. Even with the new time help.

Ate at Mom's Diner for the one night we were there. Saddle West doesn't supply shampoo and conditioner anymore. Walmart had a big bottle of them for $1 each. Gas was $4.65. Tried the lunch from Saddle West for $11 both days. Picked up a few fireworks from Red Apple.

I thoroughly enjoy learning and developing my skills at these training classes. I hope the issues get worked out and we continue our progression for years to come.
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  #62  
Old 04-05-2022, 2:36 PM
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Just signed up for the 1 day Rifle skills test class in June.
Curious how many times we'll get a crack at the test.
Booth mentioned last week it's 4 or sometimes 5 times so either way should be fun.

Shot down 19 last week, I blew it at the 25 when I shanked one of the headshots
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  #63  
Old 04-05-2022, 9:49 PM
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I signed up for the Shotgun test class June 5th. Booth answered one of my questions about the test class. I wondered if you were to DJ the test should you finish out the day. Seemed kind of rude to me. Oh, I got what I wanted, see you suckers! Both said no. They hope you leave so they can focus on the remainders. So I hope they will leave once they past the test, because I will be one of the last ones standing.
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  #64  
Old 04-07-2022, 9:36 PM
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good luck Allen, hopefully you get that DG knocked out early in the day and then you're all done.
I've got a buddy of mine who signed up also for the course, we've both missed DG by only a few points the last two times so we'll see how this goes.
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  #65  
Old 04-08-2022, 5:00 AM
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Well, in my opinion, I can't wait until we change the Structure of not having to DG in order to move on. Just to Graduate should be sufficient to take additional courses.
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  #66  
Old 04-08-2022, 2:08 PM
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Well, in my opinion, I can't wait until we change the Structure of not having to DG in order to move on. Just to Graduate should be sufficient to take additional courses.
Nah… That is one thing I really like with Front Sight compared to other schools. There is a level of standards that needs to be met before moving on… This is good for the safety and flow, at the least, for the next level classes. Case in point: You are in advanced level class, and the instructor has to spend 1-hr outside of the regular curriculum because students cannot clear their pistols!

Yeah, the schools that I know that have a minimum skill requirement is the minority. One school I know actually ejects you from class with no refund if you don’t meet standards.

That said, at least for handguns - isnt a “G” sufficient for the 2D THG? Also, aren’t Skill Builders for that need? If you need to improve your competence to get a DG?

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  #67  
Old 04-08-2022, 3:31 PM
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Are you saying that Front Site gives out Graduate to students in a class that can't even clear their pistol? They still earn Graduate? I can understand a different level of shooting ability beteeen those who get G vs DG but I would think to earn the G in the basic class you should be safe and able to clear your gun. Maybe not as fast as some shooters but that's different then not being able to clear it.
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  #68  
Old 04-08-2022, 4:11 PM
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Are you saying that Front Site gives out Graduate to students in a class that can't even clear their pistol? They still earn Graduate? I can understand a different level of shooting ability beteeen those who get G vs DG but I would think to earn the G in the basic class you should be safe and able to clear your gun. Maybe not as fast as some shooters but that's different then not being able to clear it.
No, what I was saying that the nice thing about Front Sight is that they have standards. You do not progress to the next level classes unless you meet those standards (which includes being able to clear types 1 to 3 to even get a “G”). This is what I do NOT want taken away from Front Sight because of what I see/saw in other schools.

The case in point I mentioned was in a class local to SoCal… And one of the more popular ones. We were in the top level class for that school - almost a third couldn’t clear their pistols, with the sideways look to the instructor “what do I do Sir?”…


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  #69  
Old 04-09-2022, 6:18 AM
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Now I'm curious which class in SoCal that is
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Old 04-09-2022, 6:24 AM
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Very true. Watching Travis Haley spending extra time to teach a newbie to load his gun while the rest of the class waits was painful. Even one newbie costs a lot of time for the rest. Go from Drivers Ed straight to Formula One.
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Old 04-09-2022, 7:42 AM
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Very true. Watching Travis Haley spending extra time to teach a newbie to load his gun while the rest of the class waits was painful. Even one newbie costs a lot of time for the rest. Go from Drivers Ed straight to Formula One.
I could imagine.

In the class that I mentioned above - we spent close to an hour going through a review of malfunction clearances. And then once we got into the drills - distance are much closer, par times are much longer. And the dynamism compared to other instances of the class wasn't there. I was not getting any feedback from the instructors (good or bad). It felt like I was simply coasting - going through the motions, trying to justify my time/money's worth.

Which brings me to a realization after my first (and last) private class at Front Sight. ... Taking "standard" group classes will not work for me anymore. I pay for a class, I take time off, etc. I expect to learn and I expect critique (good and bad) from the instructors. If I simply needed a place to run drills and "test" myself under stress - I can do that in a match. This feedback is what I do not get in a group class; unless, it were run by the more experienced instructors (traveling instructors, for example, that DO make time to give feedback to each student).

In the FS private class - I really enjoyed and appreciated what the instructors had to give. Observations on my strengths and deficiencies. Open-ended questions that encourages thought. Like drinking from a firehose! One memorable take-away was "Why do I relax my grip pressure during the after action drills?"

Must be me - but I think I have gotten picky with my taste for firearms classes.



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Now I'm curious which class in SoCal that is
I will PM you

Yeah, that had class had a set combo - attendance is all you need to go to the next class. As per @beanz2 - "Go from Drivers Ed straight to Formula One."


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  #72  
Old 04-09-2022, 2:32 PM
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Well, in my opinion, I can't wait until we change the Structure of not having to DG in order to move on. Just to Graduate should be sufficient to take additional courses.
sorry but I totally disagree.
As long as there are 3 levels of scoring (CA, G, DG) I agree that a DG should be needed for courses past Tactical HG.
If it were a straight pass or fail where the bar was 90% or more to graduate then I'd be okay with it.

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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Nah… That is one thing I really like with Front Sight compared to other schools. There is a level of standards that needs to be met before moving on… This is good for the safety and flow, at the least, for the next level classes.
Agreed.
And even then it's not a perfect system because you start getting into Adv Tac HG or even worse HCMP and the stress of dynamic shooting or simply the blistering times of MP and even DG students can be unsafe.
I watched as we did responses to the support side a student ND round about a foot away from a student's foot. Yes, the guy immediately in front of him had no idea he almost got shot in the leg.
Needless to say Instructors quickly converged on that student and RM DQ'd him and sat him for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
That said, at least for handguns - isnt a “G” sufficient for the 2D THG? Also, aren’t Skill Builders for that need? If you need to improve your competence to get a DG?

_
Yup, skill builders are a great way to build up or tune those skills.
And now with the 1 day Test class, the guys that are right on the verge of the DG can get multiple chances at the sticker without having to burn 2 or 4 full days
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Very true. Watching Travis Haley spending extra time to teach a newbie to load his gun while the rest of the class waits was painful. Even one newbie costs a lot of time for the rest. Go from Drivers Ed straight to Formula One.
ouch, that sounds painful.
can't imagine how frustrating that would be.

I had a similar (yet not as bad) experience at one of Mike Levy's classes 2 summers ago when he sat the class down during a break to explain to us that he was going to spend more time than usual reaffirming the fundamentals and backing off some of the shooting on the move as too many were struggling at that point in the class. (this was an Intermediate to Adv course) and it made sense.
Now if this were because a student didn't know how to clear a malfunction, pretty sure Mike would have bounced his *** off the range given that most of the class was LEO / Mil .
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Old 04-14-2022, 6:12 PM
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Heading back out next weekend, anyone else going to be there?
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Old 04-14-2022, 7:29 PM
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Heading back out next weekend, anyone else going to be there?
I may need to change my name...

Also a good experiment if the BG checks really do work...


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  #75  
Old 04-14-2022, 11:39 PM
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Heading back out next weekend, anyone else going to be there?
I’m here for RSB starting tomorrow.

Gonna blow my Iggy Bucks down to zero lol.
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Old 04-14-2022, 11:41 PM
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I may need to change my name...

Also a good experiment if the BG checks really do work...


_
Do it, man! The downside is that none of your previous classes would count. But knowing you, you’ll be back on HCMP in no time…
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Old 04-15-2022, 8:06 AM
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I had a couple of friends fail the BG check. They had very common names.
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Old 04-17-2022, 11:55 AM
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Well, the background check is a revenue stream as it doesn't cost $50 for it.

Other places I know of will take a CCW permit in lieu of background check as well.
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Old 04-17-2022, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Do it, man! The downside is that none of your previous classes would count. But knowing you, you’ll be back on HCMP in no time…
... I just checked - I need to go through the 4DDHG. I thought I could make do with the 2DDHG and the 1D test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
I had a couple of friends fail the BG check. They had very common names.
I am really tempted to...

That said, if I do fail the BG check - maybe time to use my Japanese name.


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Old 04-17-2022, 12:56 PM
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might be fun to go back to 4DDHG and work your way towards Master Prep again.
it'll just be funny / confusing if the Instructors remember you by your other name.

side note: they're not going to care, just tell them you go by "_____" now.
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