1873 go BOOM?

[prophei]

Hi All,

I bought a few antique, lever guns a while back that I have so far not shot. They were bought as shooters, and my first chance to test that is coming up this weekend.

The two are a winchester 1873 (32-20), an 1894 (30-30), and both were made in the late 1890's.

They both seem solid, and have no obvious red flags that I can tell... but I am not very experienced with this type of firearm. They are my first lever guns.

My question is... are these known to be pretty tough, or do I need to worry about one blowing up in my face? What can I look for to make sure things are in order before pulling that trigger? I'm just looking for some general insight about how I can make sure that these are safe. I wouldn't worry about it that much, but they are quite old.

Obviously, I don't expect any guarantees. Just hoping to learn a bit from all of you more experienced fans of this type of firearm!

Thanks,
Michael

[bonesurf]

32-20 is generally speaking a puffball load. wouldn't worry about it. more, the issues would simply be that the gun doesnt run right (I just put a couple 1873 44-40's through restoration). use trail boss or blackhorn loads and I wouldn't stress it for a 32-20. it's so light that it almost feels like a rimfire.

the 1894 action in general is much tougher and again if its locking up correctly I wouldn't worry about it.

the thing to do tho is have the guns inspected, checked out. if something isnt working right (out of time, etc) you could generate a malfunction that causes problems that you may not figure out how to safely fix if you are unfamiliar with the guns

[sghart]

Congratulations on the 1873. What a great rifle!

Are you shooting factory ammo in the 32-20? If so you will be fine. If you reload there are several excellent articles about loading the 32-20.

My favorite lever action in my safe is a Marlin 1894 in 32-20, built in 1901. What a beautiful and accurate rifle.

[golfish]

The gun that won the west and another that has probably taken more big game in the US that any other gun.

You've got nothing to worry about as long as they're clean and the barrels are clear and clean.

I think I speak for all when I say that I'd love to see some pictures

[bohoki]

just dont let dutch henry take it from ya

[sghart]

Originally Posted by bohoki

just dont let dutch henry take it from ya

I see what you did there! Good job.

[200Apples]

Winchester Model 1873 Weak Points - Go0gle search results


Basically, the rifle's action is referred to as a *toggle link* action. These rifles are chambered today in .357 Magnum, not a light pressure cartridge by any stretch, yet the gun is not chambered today and never was for .44 Magnum. Other Winchesters can eat .44 Mag all day long.

The 1873 is a wonderful machine, just limited.

[sealocan]

If you're ever concerned about any firearm I think the best option is...you can take it to a gunsmith to be inspected of course, especially if you're not familiar with that type of firearm.

An other option would be loading it with one round and using sandbags or something similar or maybe even building some type of rifle rest or something that holds the firearms still while you use a long string or cord to fire the firearm from a safe/long distance for the first few rounds.

I know you probably thought of both of these ideas but I wanted to put them out there for people who come alone and read this thread who might not have any experience with firearms they have concerns with.

Lastly, those rifles have become classics are now desirable so consider yourself very lucky.

[bigbossman]

As others have already said, the 32-20 is a mid round to shoot, and if you couple that with the weight of a 1973, there really isn't much recoil at all. Unless you are reloading and filling the case with Bullseye, there isn't much to worry about.

The 1873 action is weaker than the 1894 and 1892, and was designed originally for BP loads and for pistol calibers like 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40. Modern ones are chambered for .38spl/357, as has already been mentioned.

The 1894 was designed for rifle calibers and came in 5 flavors - 30-30, 32WS, 25-35, 32-40, and 38-55.

As an aside - I prefer the 1892 rifles/carbines locking lugs, even though that rifle was also designed for pistol calibers. It is a very strong and well designed action.

[Spyder]

I always wonder about "take it to a gunsmith" comments. Not that I think it's a bad idea, but I think it's typically unrealistic. Most "gunsmiths" are parts counter guys that mount scopes wrong and assemble ARs and do glock stippling. Good smiths are hard to come by and backed up for a loooong time. I've sent guns to a highly touted one here on CG and had a terrible experience that was almost 2 years longer than planned for what they said would be a simple job, and it didn't come back the way I asked for it. Countless other similar stories, unfortunately.

I wouldn't trust the parts counter guy to know if its safe and the good smiths are never going to get to it.

Also, maybe I'm just grumpy because I'm sitting at DMV waiting for service.

[bonesurf]

Well. That’s a good point. A quality smith especially for these guns are far and few between. We got a guy in the LA area anyways. He got a colt lightning running reliably for me and if you know anything about those guns…they didn’t run well 100 years ago lol

[prophei]

So many great comments. Thank you all for the feedback, insight, and knowledge!
I feel pretty good about them, so I will just be careful with that first shot at the range. I will take some pics today and post in here for anyone interested!

The biggest issue I have with the 1873 is ammo. I bought as much as I could find, but it was mostly reloads. Looks like I will have to save all the brass and learn to roll my own. Nobody seems to sell it new anymore!

I am very excited to have these, and can't wait to have them pointed downrange this weekend. Meeting a friend at a range in Petaluma.

[Rene Gade]

I think the gunsmiths you want are the ones that turn you down at first. Just gotta be polite and patient and check in here and there. The old timers seem to respect a reasonable persistence.

[prophei]

Originally Posted by Rene Gade

I think the gunsmiths you want are the ones that turn you down at first. Just gotta be polite and patient and check in here and there. The old timers seem to respect a reasonable persistence.

I used to know some here in the bay area, but the shops closed down. Any idea who has these skills out here? As you can imagine, gun culture isn't at a high point in this area.

[bonesurf]

Originally Posted by prophei

I used to know some here in the bay area, but the shops closed down. Any idea who has these skills out here? As you can imagine, gun culture isn't at a high point in this area.

Meet somebody on the CASS circuit up there. They will know

[Rene Gade]

Originally Posted by prophei

I used to know some here in the bay area, but the shops closed down. Any idea who has these skills out here? As you can imagine, gun culture isn't at a high point in this area.

I dont know for the bay local but you can try Bob Day at Americhoke now R&D Custom Barrel. And gun culture is great the moment you step outside of city limits, which is like 95% of the state!

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by prophei

So many great comments. Thank you all for the feedback, insight, and knowledge!
I feel pretty good about them, so I will just be careful with that first shot at the range. I will take some pics today and post in here for anyone interested!

The biggest issue I have with the 1873 is ammo. I bought as much as I could find, but it was mostly reloads. Looks like I will have to save all the brass and learn to roll my own. Nobody seems to sell it new anymore!

I am very excited to have these, and can't wait to have them pointed downrange this weekend. Meeting a friend at a range in Petaluma.

Starline was making it, but is now out of stock.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by prophei

So many great comments. Thank you all for the feedback, insight, and knowledge!
I feel pretty good about them, so I will just be careful with that first shot at the range. I will take some pics today and post in here for anyone interested!

The biggest issue I have with the 1873 is ammo. I bought as much as I could find, but it was mostly reloads. Looks like I will have to save all the brass and learn to roll my own. Nobody seems to sell it new anymore!

I am very excited to have these, and can't wait to have them pointed downrange this weekend. Meeting a friend at a range in Petaluma.

Just sent you a PM - there is a fellow selling some bullets and brass on the Colt forum.

[Calif Hunter]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I always wonder about "take it to a gunsmith" comments. Not that I think it's a bad idea, but I think it's typically unrealistic. Most "gunsmiths" are parts counter guys that mount scopes wrong and assemble ARs and do glock stippling. Good smiths are hard to come by and backed up for a loooong time. I've sent guns to a highly touted one here on CG and had a terrible experience that was almost 2 years longer than planned for what they said would be a simple job, and it didn't come back the way I asked for it. Countless other similar stories, unfortunately.

I wouldn't trust the parts counter guy to know if its safe and the good smiths are never going to get to it.

Also, maybe I'm just grumpy because I'm sitting at DMV waiting for service.

I agree with you. Most "gunsmiths" today are parts changers. My younger brother went through a program at Yavapai College in the Chino Valley area of AZ. He had to provide the guns he worked on, and there were many required - Colt SAA (or clones), old Colt DA revolvers (original Official Police, old model Troopers, etc) lever guns, and more. He had to learn to work a manual lathe to precise tolerances, make screws, bolts and nuts and fabricate parts like hammer, sears, etc. He worked at Bolsa Gunsmithing for years, and the owner was always telling him that he wouldn'lt accept certain guns (like Marlin 39As) because of the handfitting required - that if and when something else went wrong, the customer would be back claiming that they had ruined his gun or didn't fix it right. (Of course, my brother's response was "Then fix it right the first time.") When he left Bolsa, they had to have another friend of mine come in and teach them how to work their lathe.

Those real remaining gunsmiths are, as you said, very backed up and it may take a year or more for them to get to a new job. It took well over a year and a half to get my 1917 Colt restoration back from the gunsmith who is now the head smith at Gunsite. He is busy fixing students' guns....or custom builds.

[MyOdessa]

Originally Posted by bohoki

just dont let dutch henry take it from ya

[prophei]

Here are some quick pics of the 1873 from when I had it on the bench for cleaning...

[prophei]

Here are some quick pics of the 1894 from when I had it on the bench for cleaning...

[bigbossman]

That 94 sure has the "been there, done that" look.

[TRAP55]

prophei, Your 1894 was made late in 1899, I couldn't see the serial# on your 1873. Don't shoot jacketed bullets through it, it's a Black Powder barrel, and doesn't have the nickle content for smokeless and jackets. It has deeper grooves for cast bullets anyhow.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I always wonder about "take it to a gunsmith" comments. Not that I think it's a bad idea, but I think it's typically unrealistic. Most "gunsmiths" are parts counter guys that mount scopes wrong and assemble ARs and do glock stippling. Good smiths are hard to come by and backed up for a loooong time. I've sent guns to a highly touted one here on CG and had a terrible experience that was almost 2 years longer than planned for what they said would be a simple job, and it didn't come back the way I asked for it. Countless other similar stories, unfortunately.

I wouldn't trust the parts counter guy to know if its safe and the good smiths are never going to get to it.

Also, maybe I'm just grumpy because I'm sitting at DMV waiting for service.

Same. I wonder how many gunsmiths these days spend 90% of their time assembling AR15s, and maybe putting something on a lathe every once in a great while, and they need to try to remember how to run the lathe first.

If I had to "take my gun to a gunsmith" I'd be hunting around pretty hard and asking around for the guy who could knit a 1911 out of a ball of steel wool.

[200Apples]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

prophei...

I couldn't see the serial# on your 1873. Don't shoot jacketed bullets through it, it's a Black Powder barrel, and doesn't have the nickle content for smokeless and jackets. It has deeper grooves for cast bullets anyhow.

More than likely the best advice you might find here on calguns considering the age of this rifle.

TRAP55 is the man.

[pennstater]

Originally Posted by bonesurf

Well. That?s a good point. A quality smith especially for these guns are far and few between. We got a guy in the LA area anyways. He got a colt lightning running reliably for me and if you know anything about those guns?they didn?t run well 100 years ago lol

If you will, who might that "guy" be? Thanks.


MLC

[otteray]

I stick with cast lead and light doses of Unique or else filled with Holy Black, with my Marlin lever gun and S&W 32WCF revolvers. There are several bullet vendors online if you roll your own. Be wary of older ammo that may be hi pressure; but that's going back a few decades since made.
32-20s.jpg

[prophei]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

prophei, Your 1894 was made late in 1899, I couldn't see the serial# on your 1873. Don't shoot jacketed bullets through it, it's a Black Powder barrel, and doesn't have the nickle content for smokeless and jackets. It has deeper grooves for cast bullets anyhow.

Really? Nobody has ever mentioned that. I did shoot some regular 30-30 through it this last weekend for the first time, though not a huge amount. It seemed to fire very nicely, but I assume the risk is wear on the barrel?

[prophei]

So I finally took the two out this last weekend, and had a blast. I had heard for a long time that the 32-20 was light, but I was still a bit shocked at how light it was. I'm pretty sure I have used an air rifle that loud! It shot smooth as silk. We started at the 50yd, and I was stupid for using that old school sniper site at the back. It was hard to get on target because the geometry was wrong, even stable on the table. When I was later at the pistol range with it, I was standing free and able to hit center on the target with every pull. It loved the shorter range. I need to understand the sights better on that one for more distance. Practice should straighten me out.

With the 1894, using the sites was also weird. It was hard to find the right way to use them. I was left with the impression that is was dialed to use at about 100yd not 50yd. It ran smooth as silk, though it sounds like I might have been using the inappropriate ammo for it. I'll have to get something else for next time.

Things got weird for a second, as the hand-loads of 32-20 that I bought from a guy at the gun show proved to have an irregularity in a few of the bags. Everything was great until I loaded a bag of that had ammo that fit like a 32-20, but was later seen to be bottlenecked. It fired, with the weirdest sound, almost like it was out of breath. The case was cracked at the bottlenecked point. I didn't know I had loaded up a batch like that, as it wasn't entirely obvious at first, so thinking it was a single errant round, I shot again a few times and it did the same. Something was clearly wrong, so I removed everything I had loaded, and took a much better look at what I had. Glad I did, I had about 40 cartridges of this weird ammo that was clearly not right.

There was too much of it separated in a few specific bags to imply a reloading defect. Is there a type of ammo that is a bottlenecked 32-20 that might have been mislabeled? I should have given this ammo a much more critical eye given that it wasn't "new". Big lesson learned. Just glad that both the rifle and myself didn't sustain any damage.

[prophei]

Originally Posted by otteray

I stick with cast lead and light doses of Unique or else filled with Holy Black, with my Marlin lever gun and S&W 32WCF revolvers. There are several bullet vendors online if you roll your own. Be wary of older ammo that may be hi pressure; but that's going back a few decades since made.
Attachment 1189929

Lovely set! Your rifle looks very similar to my 1873, with that same sight on the back. Beautiful.

[TRAP55]

Originally Posted by prophei

Really? Nobody has ever mentioned that. I did shoot some regular 30-30 through it this last weekend for the first time, though not a huge amount. It seemed to fire very nicely, but I assume the risk is wear on the barrel?

Your 30/30 barrel is one of the first smokeless barrels made for jacketed bullets. The first two calibers were, 32/40 and 38/55 in the 1894, and both were BP cartridges. Winchester continued to use BP barrels on rifles in those calibers, well into the smokeless age.
The 1873 is what I was talking about.
The odd 32/20 cartridges you mentioned, post some pics next to the others, and closeups of the head stamps. 32/20 are known for splitting shoulders and case necks, annealing brass is a must of you reload.
At the moment, I'm up to my ears renovating my house, got about two to three weeks more of chaos here. When it's done, bring that 1873 by and we can give it a good deep clean preservation, and tune it up.

[prophei]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

Your 30/30 barrel is one of the first smokeless barrels made for jacketed bullets. The first two calibers were, 32/40 and 38/55 in the 1894, and both were BP cartridges. Winchester continued to use BP barrels on rifles in those calibers, well into the smokeless age.
The 1873 is what I was talking about.
The odd 32/20 cartridges you mentioned, post some pics next to the others, and closeups of the head stamps. 32/20 are known for splitting shoulders and case necks, annealing brass is a must of you reload.
At the moment, I'm up to my ears renovating my house, got about two to three weeks more of chaos here. When it's done, bring that 1873 by and we can give it a good deep clean preservation, and tune it up.

Ohhhh, I misunderstood. Yes, the ammo I was shooting in the 1873 was not jacketed. I'll get a picture of that ammo in a bit and post it. Really interested in your thoughts. The only ammo that would split the case were those bottlenecked. Every other cartridge fired perfect.

Thank you for that nice offer! That sounds great! My 1873 probably needs that kind of attention, and learning more about how to maintain this type of rifle is a wonderful opportunity for me.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by prophei

Things got weird for a second, as the hand-loads of 32-20 that I bought from a guy at the gun show proved to have an irregularity in a few of the bags. Everything was great until I loaded a bag of that had ammo that fit like a 32-20, but was later seen to be bottlenecked. It fired, with the weirdest sound, almost like it was out of breath. The case was cracked at the bottlenecked point. I didn't know I had loaded up a batch like that, as it wasn't entirely obvious at first, so thinking it was a single errant round, I shot again a few times and it did the same. Something was clearly wrong, so I removed everything I had loaded, and took a much better look at what I had. Glad I did, I had about 40 cartridges of this weird ammo that was clearly not right.

There was too much of it separated in a few specific bags to imply a reloading defect. Is there a type of ammo that is a bottlenecked 32-20 that might have been mislabeled? I should have given this ammo a much more critical eye given that it wasn't "new". Big lesson learned. Just glad that both the rifle and myself didn't sustain any damage.

32-20 is a bottlenecked pistol cartridge. I've never had much issue with shooting my reloads using new brass, but I have had neck splits and other shenanigans using older factory ammo and/or reloading old brass. The brass is thin, and can easily become brittle with age.

I don't anneal mine, but I have a lot of it and I don't get too many failures. Most of the brass I lose, I lose during the reloading process because they are so fragile.

[TRAP55]

What bbm said, that's been my experience as well.
I have to ask, did you flinch with that first shot? My 44/40 surprised me the first time, had me wondering if there was powder in that round, like shooting a .22.

[prophei]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

What bbm said, that's been my experience as well.
I have to ask, did you flinch with that first shot? My 44/40 surprised me the first time, had me wondering if there was powder in that round, like shooting a .22.

It was so unbelievably quiet and non-jarring that the most prominent part of the experience was almost a sound much like air rushing out of the gun more than any real bang. The second that happened, I realized fully why my fears about the stability of that old gun were a bit silly. We all laughed that if the walls of that barrel were made out of soda can tin, it probably would have handled it just fine.

I am used to firing things with a lot more bang, so this felt like butter in my hands. Super fun and comfortable actually. I read about people having hunted with these, but I am guessing you would need to be really close for this to take anything more than a rabbit down.

[TRAP55]

In a rifle barrel, might be kinda hard to tell if it went off. Give me the serial number off that, so I can see when it was made.

[jwb28]

Originally Posted by prophei

So I finally took the two out this last weekend, and had a blast. I had heard for a long time that the 32-20 was light, but I was still a bit shocked at how light it was. I'm pretty sure I have used an air rifle that loud! It shot smooth as silk. We started at the 50yd, and I was stupid for using that old school sniper site at the back. It was hard to get on target because the geometry was wrong, even stable on the table. When I was later at the pistol range with it, I was standing free and able to hit center on the target with every pull. It loved the shorter range. I need to understand the sights better on that one for more distance. Practice should straighten me out.

With the 1894, using the sites was also weird. It was hard to find the right way to use them. I was left with the impression that is was dialed to use at about 100yd not 50yd. It ran smooth as silk, though it sounds like I might have been using the inappropriate ammo for it. I'll have to get something else for next time.

Things got weird for a second, as the hand-loads of 32-20 that I bought from a guy at the gun show proved to have an irregularity in a few of the bags. Everything was great until I loaded a bag of that had ammo that fit like a 32-20, but was later seen to be bottlenecked. It fired, with the weirdest sound, almost like it was out of breath. The case was cracked at the bottlenecked point. I didn't know I had loaded up a batch like that, as it wasn't entirely obvious at first, so thinking it was a single errant round, I shot again a few times and it did the same. Something was clearly wrong, so I removed everything I had loaded, and took a much better look at what I had. Glad I did, I had about 40 cartridges of this weird ammo that was clearly not right.

There was too much of it separated in a few specific bags to imply a reloading defect. Is there a type of ammo that is a bottlenecked 32-20 that might have been mislabeled? I should have given this ammo a much more critical eye given that it wasn't "new". Big lesson learned. Just glad that both the rifle and myself didn't sustain any damage.

Was the ammo that was irregular. head stamped 32-20. maybe there was some other caliber mixed in. the necks would split if the bullet was a smaller diameter. Just a W.A.G.

[prophei]

Originally Posted by jwb28

Was the ammo that was irregular. head stamped 32-20. maybe there was some other caliber mixed in. the necks would split if the bullet was a smaller diameter. Just a W.A.G.

That was the first thing I checked, but it was labeled the same. I have included some pics here. You can see the bottlenecked stuff, the regular stuff, and an image with both for comparison.

*The bullet looks different between the two in these images. The original batch I had mentioned earlier had all the same bullet as you see here in the bottlenecked cartridges.

[bigbossman]

From those pictures it looks like you have some 25-20 mixed in. Resized 32-20 into 25-20 reloads maybe? In any case, those rounds are not all the same and I see dimples on the shoulders telling me they've been resized. That ammo is funky looking and I don't think it's all legit.