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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-07-2021, 8:46 AM
Unit74 Unit74 is offline
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Default New bolt body-REM 700 long action

I sent my REM 700 SPS 300 win mag bolt to LRI in South Dakota to install the double ejector and M16 extractor along with fluting. The OE bolt would not extract rounds or fired cases from the chamber at all. When they went to mill the bolt body, it cracked.

So about a month and a half later they found the new bolt body and performed the work. I understand that it should be looked at and go, no goes to start with. I wanted to ask if there is a way to check this at home instead of paying a gunsmith for this? Would chambering a round be enough or would it take buying the go/no go tools?
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2021, 9:58 AM
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Have to use gages to be sure. Probably cheaper to bring it into a smith though.
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Old 02-07-2021, 10:59 AM
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How does a round chamber now?
Do you reload?
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Old 02-07-2021, 11:12 AM
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I don’t know. It’s in the UPS right now. I only use factory loads.
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Old 02-07-2021, 11:37 AM
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Edit: oops my bad read that wrong

Last edited by DDRH; 03-15-2021 at 5:54 PM..
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Old 02-07-2021, 12:48 PM
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Yes, correct. 300 WinMag.
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Old 02-07-2021, 12:57 PM
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I would ask Randall, who is here occasionally, to get his take on that.
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Old 02-07-2021, 1:06 PM
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Sounds like expensive work. Would it have been a lot more to just replace the action with a custom one?
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Old 02-07-2021, 1:16 PM
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Oh belted magnums are a bit different than normal chambers. They headspace off the belt, not the shoulder like other rounds. I and others, headspace off the shoulder when setting up a belted mag. You can try adding layers of tape to the base of new brass, sharpie the shoulder and close the bolt. Use a naked bolt and add tape until the shoulder gets chamber marks. Then measure the layers of tape for your headspace.
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Old 02-07-2021, 3:27 PM
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The bolt shouldn't close on a belted magnum field gage. There are no other guarantees than that for the situation the OP describes.

I'm not sure why someone with no experience would want to check the work of a gunsmith? You're more likely to have headspace problems from Remington than LRI. Do you check the headspace of all your new rifles?
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Old 02-07-2021, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Sounds like expensive work. Would it have been a lot more to just replace the action with a custom one?
A custom action might be a consideration for a full build, but would be pretty pointless without a new barrel.

That machine work is competing with fitting a PTG bolt. I go with the PTG bolt because it cleans up a bunch of other problems. I think LRI had a falling out with PTG. Several smiths have. I don't order reamers from them anymore, but have done pretty well with them for gunsmith fit parts. As long as I'm not in a hurry.

Neither of the the last 2 Remington 700 300wm rifles I've bought extracted. The first one had the extractor groove cut too deep in the bolt face, the other had the bolt handle too far back.
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2021, 4:23 PM
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Funny you mention the PTG issue. I asked about just getting a PTG bolt and they were not too warm on that idea at all. My stock bolt has sucked since I bought it new in 2013. It has always been finicky. But this year it just quick working all together.

It’s in a stock action and bbl with a KRB Bravo stock and Calvin Elite trigger with a 5 port Beast Brake. Athlon Midas HMR on top.
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2021, 5:26 PM
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Have a current box of WW 300 Win Mag on the bench and 18 out of 20 of them are .008" over SAAMI cartridge max from base to front of belt. The gun they were brought in with (Late, new Rem 700) was not closing at all on rounds or gauges. Part of the problem was the proud extractor rivet, which was rectified. Service bolt is finger tight on go gauge. Still wont close on new rounds from this box. Close fine on older 300 WM cases and dummies.


Best to use gauges OP. Cannot trust new ammo.


By the way, how the hell does a bolt body "crack" when being machined?? Sounds more like a fixture slipped, or setup went wonky, or the high school kid ( the bigger a company gets, the more likely this is to happen) working that day effed up....? Shat happens.

Last edited by kendog4570; 02-07-2021 at 5:31 PM..
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Old 02-07-2021, 8:19 PM
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Quote:
By the way, how the hell does a bolt body "crack" when being machined?? Sounds more like a fixture slipped, or setup went wonky, or the high school kid ( the bigger a company gets, the more likely this is to happen) working that day effed up....? Shat happens.
I agree with KenDog on this. 99.999% probability that the smith screwed the OP's Pooch. Then charged OP for getting screwed.
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Old 02-07-2021, 8:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendog4570 View Post

By the way, how the hell does a bolt body "crack" when being machined?? Sounds more like a fixture slipped, or setup went wonky, or the high school kid ( the bigger a company gets, the more likely this is to happen) working that day effed up....? Shat happens.
It has to be due to inadequate subcontractor over sight by Remington. The metal supplier shipped defective material. It was not caught by Remington, or it was, and they made rifles from it anyway.

The Range Master at CMP Talladega had a recent M700 bolt lug give way. The gunsmith sectioned the bolt lug and found "bubbles" in the metal. That is probably metal porosity, and metal like that should not have been shipped.

Talking to a Remington Huntsville employee, Remington outsourced, and trusted the supplier to over see their own work. When you lack robust Quality Assurance surveillance at source, the subcontractor knows you are an idiot, and you get the crap that the smart buyer won't accept.
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  #16  
Old 02-07-2021, 9:33 PM
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He found "bubbles" that are "probably porosity". Maybe he did, maybe not. Not exactly a thorough materials failure analysis. If it didn't "crack" during normal firing, I seriously doubt it would crack having an end mill run through it. Bolts crack from serious over pressure.

I have seen Rem heat braze joints let go under tool pressure. Usually at the bolt handle root. The end of the bolt being worked on the head is hi temp brazed to the body with a 5/16 dowel running cross ways through it as well. The way the OP posted that they explained it to him doesn't hunt. Maybe something else happened and it got lost in the translation to here?

If they screwed it up they should eat it. I have. I dont care who you are, EVERYONE screws up occasionally. If it was an obvious factory defect that came out in discovery as the work was being performed, they should have dogged everything off and informed the customer and both decide on a course of action.
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2021, 2:38 AM
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I am not savvy enough to know what I’m talking about or what they are. I was simply told it cracked. They said they could try and fix it but with no guarantee it would hold. So I opted for a new bolt.

I’ll have a gunsmith look at the rifle once the new bolt gets here. Sounds like it’s outside my wheelhouse.
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Old 02-08-2021, 3:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit74 View Post
I am not savvy enough to know what I’m talking about or what they are. I was simply told it cracked. They said they could try and fix it but with no guarantee it would hold. So I opted for a new bolt.

I’ll have a gunsmith look at the rifle once the new bolt gets here. Sounds like it’s outside my wheelhouse.

Likely too late since it is in return transit. I would have told them to send me the "cracked" bolt for inspection.

Unscrupulous service providers rely on most things being "outside the wheelhouse" of unknowing customers.
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Old 02-08-2021, 4:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendog4570 View Post
He found "bubbles" that are "probably porosity". Maybe he did, maybe not. Not exactly a thorough materials failure analysis.
I did not see the bolt, but the owner and the gunsmith did. And they contacted Remington who blew them off. Remington's position was since the gun had been customized, (new stock, I remember a large bolt knob), things which did not affect the integrity of the bolt or receiver. Before the bolt was sectioned the shooter had asked me my opinion on his loads, and they were not excessive. And he pulled bullets from his box and found the charges were spot on. I never would have thought the steel was defective, given today's technology, but you know, it was.

Sure, maybe the failure analysis was not at a professional level, it still broke.

Maybe Remington purchased their steel from Kobe Steel. You know, that Japanese company.

Kobe Steel fined for fabricating data amid falling credibility of made-in-Japan products

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._137892362.htm

Kobe Steel deliberately falsified the strength, durability and other data pertaining to the more than 600 products shipped to their clients.
Data, it was found, was manipulated at 23 domestic and overseas plants, with the company also admitting that more than 40 employees were involved in the falsification practice, which the firm said had been endemic in the company since the 1970s when the misconduct first began at its Tochigi Plant.

Companies ranging from automakers and airplane manufacturers, to defense equipment and Shinkansen bullet train makers, have been affected by the protracted scandal that has rocked the manufacturing world both domestically and globally.


When I read up on this, I found Kobe Steel had an inhouse manual and given their employees in house training on how to falsify data. I really thought Kobe Steel would go bust after this revelation but not so!. Stock had a high around 4000 before the scandal, dipped, and now is around 632. It seems purchasing managers will continue to buy cheap product as long as Kobe CEO's weep, wail and claim they have learned their lesson!

Kobe Steel scandal: how did it happen?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-43298649
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Old 02-08-2021, 6:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit74 View Post
I’ll have a gunsmith look at the rifle once the new bolt gets here.
I assumed that LRI had the whole gun in their hands and shipped the new bolt back with the rifle.

The reason I assumed that is the M16 extractor probably won't work with a factory barrel. If you only shipped them the bolt, LRI wouldn't have any way of knowing that was your intention.

The recess at the end of the barrel needs to be opened up to a larger diameter to work with the M16 extractor. Even if the bolt will close on an empty chamber, there probably won't be enough clearance for the extractor to clip over a round while loading. If there isn't enough clearance for the extractor on both the end and diameter, it'll fail prematurely.

When I installed a PTG bolt with an M16 extractor in my 300wm 5R, I had to open up that recess. While the barrel was in the lathe, it didn't take much more time to adjust the headspace to the belts on the brass I use. The clocking on the barrel markings is lost when you do this though. The bolt action gunsmithing operation I dislike above all others is the first removal of a factory barrel. I doubt it's a 100% success operation for anybody. Success being defined as barrel and action apart, neither part damaged or marked.
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Old 02-08-2021, 6:38 AM
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Defiance M16 type extractors work in a standard .705" counter bore.
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Old 02-08-2021, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendog4570 View Post
Defiance M16 type extractors work in a standard .705" counter bore.
Thanks for the heads up, lets hope that's what LRI installed for the OP.

I'll keep using the full sized M16 extractors because I prefer the sturdier set up and the gunsmithing is free.
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Old 02-08-2021, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Would it have been a lot more to just replace the action with a custom one?
Yes.
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Old 02-08-2021, 9:32 AM
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My M16 extractors also work without barrel modifications.

Notice in my first post I asked if the ammo fit. With all the shortages of late ammo has been all over the place and belted magnum rounds have the loosest headspace specs of any cartridges.
If you reload you can correct for this.
If Chad broke your bolt and sent you a factory replacement bolt you should be fine. He badmouthed PT&G and no longer gets replacement bolts from them.
If you go on sniper hides look for a thread where he trues up remington 700 actions but doesn't use oversized bolts when he is done. I pointed that out and Chad cried about it to little bitty Frank and he banned me as LRI is a sponsor on that site.

How can anyone remove metal truing up a bolt and receiver and expect a tighter fit?
Here is a factory 700 magnum bolt a M16 in a factory bolt and a PT&G bolt with the M16 extractor.
They all fit and work fine. I will send you a PM.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 01-08-2022 at 6:06 PM..
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Old 02-08-2021, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit74 View Post
I sent my REM 700 SPS 300 win mag bolt to LRI
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
I'm not sure why someone with no experience would want to check the work of a gunsmith?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit74 View Post
I am not savvy enough to know what I’m talking about or what they are.
I was simply told it cracked.
They said they could try and fix it but with no guarantee it would hold.
So I opted for a new bolt.

I’ll have a gunsmith look at the rifle once the new bolt gets here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
I assumed that LRI had the whole gun in their hands and shipped the new bolt back with the rifle.
It's still not clear if the OP sent in his barrelled action or just his bolt.

NORMALLY, only the bolt is required in order to do fluting.
Of course, the barrelled action would be required to fit a NEW bolt.

Theoretically, you could measure the boltface length from the lugs and match up a new bolt to that dimension, but that does not account for other tolerances in the system and is not the right way to do it.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 02-08-2021 at 9:43 AM..
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Old 02-08-2021, 1:04 PM
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All I sent was the bolt to LRI. I have a local gunsmith appt tomorrow to give it a once over. But it did run smooth in the action and felt like a solid fit. It also loads and extracts ammo just fine.
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Old 02-08-2021, 1:07 PM
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Old 02-08-2021, 7:44 PM
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I know the SAKO type extractor will blow out, right into the shooter's eye if there is enough gas release in the action. I have looked just where that extractor is, and there is absolutely nothing supporting it, or keeping it put.

And that is the same for an M16 extractor. If you look at an AR15 bolt assembly, a lot of the extractor is inside the bolt carrier when the bolt is in battery. So, in a not so horrible over pressure event, the extractor is not blown out.

this is an AR15 bolt, the extractor held in place by a pin



this is bolt, in carrier, unlocked



bolt in battery



no barrel extension to hide a fully forward bolt inside ring of upper



bolt in locked configuration, inside bolt carrier



With Stoner's design, the extractor body is well inside the carrier, and the part in the barrel extension is well supported. Only a little bit is between the carrier and extension when the lugs are in engagement. And the extractor is not orientated toward the ejection port. This extractor in its original useage, is going to be very hard to blow out of an AR15 if there is a massive gas release.


There are lots of bad kabooms where a M16/AR15 bolt head is cracked apart and the extractor blew out, but short of extreme events, an M16 extractor is going to stay inside the gun.

Look Ma! No carrier!



Yes it is military, but those M700 bolt face conversions are using it differently from Stoner's military rifle. His rifle provided a lot of support for that extractor. But, some believe, that just because something is "Mil Spec", that makes it magic.

Take a military claw hammer and hit yourself in the head with it, and then try an identical sized civilian claw hammer, and hit your self in the head. Feel any magic with the military claw hammer.? Probably not.

I don't have a M700 with a M16 extractor, but I don't see anything other than some small cross pin keeping it in place in a M700 bolt. Just like the SAKO extractor, it is right in line with the right receiver bolt lug opening, with nothing but air above. And I am going to say, until I see some real test evidence that cross pin will keep that extractor from blowing out of a M700 receiver ring, I have no desire to install one on a M700 bolt. Mike Walker designed one of the strongest, safest actions, the trade off was, a dinky, puny little extractor that wears.

And central to his design was the three rings that encircle the case head.



And you smart guys, went and cut that circle, and what do you have, other than herd mentality and faith, that your modification is safer than Mike's design?

Moo cow, you will shoot your eye out!

Last edited by slamfire1; 02-09-2021 at 9:21 AM..
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Old 02-09-2021, 11:11 AM
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The problem I have with the 3 rings of steel line is if it works as designed, the only leak left for 3000 degree brass bits and gas is down the firing pin to your eye. An action without a recess at the end of the barrel but with the rear of the bolt sealed is arguably safer than the R700 for a right handed shooter shooting a right handed gun. Another issue with the 3 ring enclosed bolt nose design is hiding the extractor in the bolt nose required extending the unsupported section of the case by ~0.025" because the bolt recess is deeper.

I completely understand why a professional gunsmith with a liability policy might choose not to modify a Remington bolt though.

The issue with the Sako extractor is when it's installed on an R700 bolt, the hole for the rear lug penetrates into the firing pin channel. In the event of a case failure, it gets blown out of the bolt by the lug before being punted out of the action. The M16 style extractor is pinned and doesn't require that penetration into the firing pin channel. You'll still likely wind up with a projectile if you blow a case though. It shouldn't hit a right handed shooter on a right handed gun, but it's better to just not go there.

The first PTG bolt with an M16 extractor I installed would close on an empty chamber, but not with a case. That was a fresh barrel with a .705" counterbore. It was a new donor rifle and I didn't find out about the extractor problem until the first time I fired it. The gun was well past the point of no return for asking Remington to fix it. The last was a 5R with the factory barrel. I tested it and had the same issue. I open the barrels up to the Badger drawing and the problem goes away. I'm sliding cases into a bolt on the table and am not sure why? I'm buying the bolts unpopulated, so maybe it's the extractors I'm selecting?

If the bolt is working for the OP, I'm glad to hear it.

If LRI did not have the bolt and gun together for a check, somebody who knows what they're doing needs to check it.
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Old 02-09-2021, 12:12 PM
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Shaun

It's at the gunsmith right now. Headspace was off and the bolt would not close on the Go tool. He is going to tune it up.
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Old 02-09-2021, 12:23 PM
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I think that was one of the things Kendog was warning about.

I'm glad its coming down for a relatively soft landing.
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Old 02-09-2021, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit74 View Post
It’s in a stock action and bbl with a KRB Bravo stock and Calvin Elite trigger with a 5 port Beast Brake. Athlon Midas HMR on top.
Which magazine length are you going to run in that stock?

Did it work with the supplied magazine catch or did you have to order the shorter one?
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Old 02-09-2021, 1:15 PM
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And you smart guys, went and cut that circle, and what do you have, other than herd mentality and faith, that your modification is safer than Mike's design?
Is the extractor swap performed for safety? I've never heard that.

I always thought it was more a reliability (of extraction) mod. No stamped steel circlip thing to wear or break.
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Old 02-09-2021, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
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Which magazine length are you going to run in that stock?

Did it work with the supplied magazine catch or did you have to order the shorter one?
I have a couple Magpul AICS LA mags that work with it. You have to install the KRG spacer in the magwell but so far no issues. Does what it is supposed to do.
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Old 02-09-2021, 1:50 PM
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What is the headspace on a 300 Winchester magnum?
Isn't it over 0.020?
Do you trust the gunsmith you took it too? Or is he a home hobbyist type?
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Old 02-09-2021, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
The problem I have with the 3 rings of steel line is if it works as designed, the only leak left for 3000 degree brass bits and gas is down the firing pin to your eye.
Look closer at the design.
There is a vent on the side of the bolt that aligns with the vent in the side of the reciever when the bolt is in battery.
The flange on the firing pin blocks the gas from coming rearwards and redirects it out of the vent on the side of the bolt and reciever.
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2021, 2:17 PM
ShaunBrady ShaunBrady is offline
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What is the headspace on a 300 Winchester magnum?
Isn't it over 0.020?
It's 0.220 - 0.227" on the chamber, 0.212" - 0.220" on the case. Shoulder blows forward 0.015" - 0.020" on the first firing with the reamer I use and on the factory barrels I've shot. I've short chambered them for the belts on the brass I have in hand, but don't suggest turning anything like that loose into the world.

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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Do you trust the gunsmith you took it too? Or is he a home hobbyist type?
As opposed to a bunch of people on the internet he's never met?
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  #38  
Old 02-09-2021, 2:18 PM
Unit74 Unit74 is offline
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His only business is custom rifle and pistol builds and repairs. Gunsmith only, not a dealer. He came highly recommended by several guys I know who are gun bunnies. Good enough for me.
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  #39  
Old 02-09-2021, 2:20 PM
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ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
What is the headspace on a 300 Winchester magnum?
0.003" between GO and NO-GO gauges for typical belted magnums.

Go is 0.220"
No-Go is 0.223"
Field is 0.226"
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AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
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  #40  
Old 02-09-2021, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
The first PTG bolt with an M16 extractor I installed would close on an empty chamber, but not with a case. That was a fresh barrel with a .705" counterbore. It was a new donor rifle and I didn't find out about the extractor problem until the first time I fired it. The gun was well past the point of no return for asking Remington to fix it. The last was a 5R with the factory barrel. I tested it and had the same issue. I open the barrels up to the Badger drawing and the problem goes away. I'm sliding cases into a bolt on the table and am not sure why? I'm buying the bolts unpopulated, so maybe it's the extractors I'm selecting?
You need to check the extractor clearance with a headspace gauge that is at max rim diameter to make sure none of the extractor is outside the 0.705" bolt clearance.
Typical remington bolt head is 0.695"
That's why PTG mages the bolt counterbore cutter 0.705".
That means there is 0.005" all the way around.
If your extractor does not leave the 0.695" bolt nose circle while snapping over the max gauge rim, it's defiently going to fit with cartridges just fine.
Cutting the bolt nose counterbore bigger to clear an oversized claw extractor is the lazy fix.
The better fix is to maintain the bolt nose diameter and clearance the excessively thick extractor.
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AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
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