#1
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Capital punishment
I read a recent post by a calgunner making some pretty bold statements about capital punishment. I actually couldn’t tell if he was being hyperbolic or somewhat comedic to emphasize his point. I’ve noticed he posts in here a lot and I often enjoy reading his perspective, so I’m kind of hoping he chimes in on this.
How does one square being Christian and also pro-capital punishment? I have some issues with handing authority over to the state -a state I don’t trust, and don’t feel often represents the people- to execute human beings. To murder someone...to decide death for someone else...isn’t that just trying to take and usurp God’s power? And aren’t we all complicit or culpable when our -allegedly- democratic institution murders someone? And we don’t stand or speak against it? And yes, I’m using the word murder intentionally. I believe the only justification for killing someone else is defense of self, or defense of the innocent. But when the state executes someone -no matter how heinous and wicked they are, or how evil their future deeds MIGHT be- in that moment, they pose no imminent danger to anyone. State sponsored execution is not self-defense- It’s punishment. And I think that type of punishment is God’s and only God’s. No man, and certainly no institution, should seek to use that power. Not to mention, some data shows our track record isn’t great and that we accidentally murder innocent people all the time via capital punishment. That poses a bit of a problem in and of itself, doesn’t it? Even if we set that aside that huge, glaring issue, and assume everyone who the state murders was indeed guilty of their crimes...I think we still have an enormous problem. I have some strong opinions about this. But try to change my mind. If you are a Christian and are also pro capital punishment, I’d like to hear your perspective especially. Shout out to TrailerparkTrash.
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I was quick to want the world rid of it’s fools an hour ago. I forget sometimes how much an exemplar I am among them. |
#2
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I disagree with everything you said. Eye for an eye for me. Many of those on death row are completely devoid of any compassion or chance of redemption. Put down those who have been sentenced to death. You can go to third world country and see how your faith works were murder is a common daily occurrence. Like northern Mexico.
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#3
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Making the punishment fit the crime(an "eye for an eye") is proper. Remember, the Bible commands death in many of it's "crimes"(sins). The Hebrews(Jews) even used the death penalty for things that weren't listed in the Law as a sin. So, it is appropriate for certain things, though not all.
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#4
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Self defense of community and society is not murder, and capital punishment is self defense.
War is not murder. That said, I am opposed to capital punishment because of its costs. It's cheaper to house them forever, especially if it is done at the Joe Arpaio level of comfort.
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Benefactor Life Member, National Rifle Association Life Member, California Rifle and Pistol Association |
#5
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Convince me I’m wrong, then. And no, I don’t see how “sEe HoW yEr FaItH wOrKs In mExIcO” is helpful or makes any sense. Unless you’re trying to suggest capital punishment is necessary for strong rule of law and a high trust society. Which is wrong. And again, doesn't address anything I brought up.
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I was quick to want the world rid of it’s fools an hour ago. I forget sometimes how much an exemplar I am among them. |
#6
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Okay, good. Can you say more about that? I don’t think execution by definition and nature is self-defense. Or defending society. Because, presumably, we are dealing with someone who has already been stripped of being a threat to society (in theory, I guess.)
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I was quick to want the world rid of it’s fools an hour ago. I forget sometimes how much an exemplar I am among them. |
#7
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Pretty certain he rejects that maxim during his Sermon on the Mount. But that’s why I’d love for someone who is pretty literate with scripture to weigh in.
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I was quick to want the world rid of it’s fools an hour ago. I forget sometimes how much an exemplar I am among them. Last edited by Grouchy Bear; 12-15-2019 at 8:14 AM.. |
#8
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In 1Sam. 30, there's a story of David and his men being gone, and enemies came, burned David's village and kidnapped everyone in it. Nobody was killed. David asked "God" what he should do, and God says, Go get them. Don't worry, you'll win. David and his men went after them, caught and killed all of them, getting the kidnapped people back. I'm not aware of any where in the Bible is there any criticism of David saying that he over reacted. One must balance what Christ says in the New Testament with what was said and done in the Old Testament. |
#9
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I don't abide The Beziers Massacre of 1209, but for those guilty of heinous crimes, the “Kill them all, for the Lord knows his own” does apply.
__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Robert J. Hanlon No more dems, rinos, commies, , pinkos, crooks, pedos, frauds, idiots, lunatics, wanna-be dictators, traitors, old fools, or kleptocratic thieves for President from any party. The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. Donald J. Trump 1/7/21 |
#10
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I'm not a Christian -- just a guy very familiar with it. You'll have a hard time addressing capital punishment via a new testament perspective. Jesus didn't seem to have much of a problem with it as he was ready to dole out far worse punishments (eternal torment) for people who stood against him. Seems like capital punishment of any sort would be a more humane option than that. On an interpersonal level, Jesus was far more tolerant and forgiving, as evidenced in his most important theological speech: the sermon on the mount. But as far as his ambitions to depose the ruling elites and Rome from Judea, I think he was ready to kill, or at least to send others to kill, pillage the rich, etc. Maybe that's war and not capital punishment but I'd say that's semantic quibbling. Practically-speaking, they're one and the same.
But you could argue, as most Christians do, that Jesus is also God, therefore, his punishments are inherently just, even if they seem barbaric to us. I don't like that particular argument but it's a common one. It reminds me of Plato, who asked if the gods like piety because it is good or is piety good because the gods like it? If the former, then maybe serving the gods isn't as important as being truly just. And if the latter, then we concede that, to some degree, might = right. But that's another topic entirely. Pretty much every Christian writer in the Bible and early writings didn't have the luxury of deciding capital punishment since they were among those being punished, sometimes with their lives. To think that Christians would soon be the ones killing non believers would have seemed too far fetched &, therefore, a non-issue. I can't think of a single example of an early (pre-Constantine) writer who addressed the issue. But it has been a long while since I was flipping through the writings of the early Patristics. So I might be wrong here. Just because I can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't any. Practically-speaking, capital punishment and life incarceration are both ways of maintaining a state monopoly on violence. If any of those folks walk the streets, the risk of revenge killing goes way up. Vigilante justice gets out of hand real fast. So I guess I'm saying that some violent criminals will be executed one way or another so it might be best if the state handles it. Personally, I feel no issue at all with capital punishment in certain contexts. It's the nitty-gritty of it all that I have objections over. I am far more tolerant of a gang member who plots the killing of a rival gang member or a bar fight that escalates too fast than I am of a child abuser or a kidnapper. While I think individualism is a good thing, I also believe that the community is also of great importance. Humans aren't solitary creatures -- we're extremely social and need a community in order to thrive. The criminally-insane have no place in the community and I fail to understand what we accomplish by allowing them to live. But I don't make the rules. And I wouldn't want to anyway. Last edited by CVShooter; 12-16-2019 at 9:23 AM.. |
#11
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The question of capital punishment's has no tie/bearing to any religion. Wether the 10 commandments "shall not kill" has any bearing on the one who may or has already violated that command...
Since in the biblical sense the violation of the command of do not kill has/may have occurred. That party is open to judgement. Clearly in the biblical sense to be judged. Now the question in the secular world is does the killer deserve 3 hots and a cot for his/her natural life? The cost of incarceration in the US is very high and grows higher with cost of living, cost of goods etc. There are also families of victims who many time are disappointed their relatives were raped? tortured? kidnapped? and ultimately dead. These may want blood for blood. Kill them all and let God sort the details.
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God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life. John 3:16 NRA,,, Lifer United Air Epic Fail Video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg |
#12
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It is very much a matter of both protecting society as well as protecting the rights of the condemned. No one ever takes the side of the rabid dog when it is put down. Oh, it is a tragedy and a terrible thing but it needed to be done. Why is it that no one complains? Simple. It is understood the dog is a menace and action is needed to keep society safe. Same with human that has shown themselves to be a threat to society through their actions. As for protecting the rights of the condemned, the First Amendment gives us the right to express ourselves. The condemned has expressed his belief in the death penalty. Therefore, it is fitting that his beliefs be part of his sentence.
Rusty Bolts
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#13
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Just read Genesis 9:6, although not under the law, it does not get any clearer than that.
ETA; understanding that with sin comes consequences.
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; Last edited by colossians323; 12-17-2019 at 2:05 PM.. |
#14
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As far back as I can remember this issue has been a controversy and I long ago accepted the fact that it will never be agreed on.
That being said, how often do you hear of a convicted criminal being executed in this country? Not very often. Once tried, convicted and sentenced an inmate is still entitled to a lengthy appeals procedure that can go on for years and then they are still not executed right away. Some criminals have died of other causes while sitting on death row waiting to be executed. So, I think the system is more than fair when you consider the vicious, brutal murders that these people committed that caused them to end up on death row in the first place. And don't forget the families of the victims. Don't they deserve closure? How do you think they feel every day knowing that the animal who murdered their loved ones is still alive and well sitting in a cell somewhere instead of burning in hell. |
#15
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Capital punishment
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If the sentence for one handed down is Death for crime, it should be carried out. There should be only one appeal within 90 days. After that time either execute or endure a life of hard labor, not cell bound without parole! My cousin was violently killed by two guys, both only got life and one may get out soon on parole? The simplest and cheapest way to carry out a execution is by using CO (Carbon Monoxide). It can be administered easily into the ventilation system of a cell. CO is colorless, odorless and tasteless. After the one appeal being denied, then a convicted person never knows when the CO will happen? Not cruel or unusual as it’s cheap, quick and justice for all. Last edited by Flyron; 01-27-2020 at 10:52 AM.. |
#17
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Well, the way I see it. If you are not going to do it in the town square for all to see, what is the point?
__________________
https://thedeplorablepatriot.com/ "A Holocaust survivor dies of old age, when he gets to heaven he tells God a Holocaust joke. God says, That isn't funny. The Old man tells God, well, I guess you had to be there." |
#18
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I do not know, but Did Jesus ever protest the Romans for crucifying criminals in his time? or any other executions?
__________________
https://thedeplorablepatriot.com/ "A Holocaust survivor dies of old age, when he gets to heaven he tells God a Holocaust joke. God says, That isn't funny. The Old man tells God, well, I guess you had to be there." |
#19
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Romans 13.
Moreover, consider Jesus own Words at His crucifixion, to Pontius Pilate, in John 19 (NKJV): Quote:
I've long wanted to write a book on this treatise, and it's influence on western jurisprudence and thought. I believe one can draw a clear and distinct line from the U.S. Constitution, back through British Common Law of 1681, to Luther's thoughts here on self defense, capital punishment, Just war theory, & whether a Christian can serve as a policeman, soldier, or hangman even, if called upon. You can read the treatise on-line here (and it's not as long as it sounds!). https://beggarsallreformation.blogsp...extent-it.html
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#20
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Well, c’mon then! School me! Seriously, help me with a biblical understanding.
__________________
I was quick to want the world rid of it’s fools an hour ago. I forget sometimes how much an exemplar I am among them. |
#21
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I understand your first statement,..but, I think this only truly applies on the village level of 'community'. Once you get to State level, IMO the death penalty has a very high likelihood of becoming 'political' action / activity. That it becomes political is why I oppose it. The 'Divine Right Of Kings' taking the power of life and death reserved to God. Kings and the like, the powerful do these things because they can and do it to instill fear and solidify political control. The backing by God thing is just an intellectual excuse / exercise IMO. Given the statement above, how is War anything other than mass murder? Sure, we have to make up some 'justifications' for doing the abhorrent. Ultimately all sides (usually) see God as on their side, and consequently 'justified' in the mass slaughter that is not murder. A distinction without a real difference in practical terms. At least orthodox Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses are consistent on the peace and love demonstrated by Jesus. For the following reasons, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t go to war: Obedience to God. The Bible says that God’s servants would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.”—Isaiah 2:4. Obedience to Jesus. The apostle Peter was told by Jesus: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52) Jesus thus showed that his followers would not take up weapons of warfare. Jesus’ disciples obey his command to be “no part of the world” by remaining strictly neutral in political matters. (John 17:16) They do not protest against military actions or interfere with those who choose to serve in the armed forces. Love for others. Jesus commanded his disciples to “love one another.” (John 13:34, 35) They would thus form an international brotherhood in which no one would ever wage war against his brother or sister.—1 John 3:10-12. The example of early Christians. The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.” Likewise, German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.” That's what's so fun about The Bible, you get to slice it any way you want it to go. Lawyers must love that. Wonder how many Lawyers / Pharisees there are in Heaven? Last edited by justMike; 05-14-2020 at 8:32 PM.. |
#22
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Not sure what translation you're reading, but again, check Romans 13. You might want to read up on how the early Church dealt with being pariahs in the Roman Empire, and yet still supported the rule of law. Consider also St. Peter's first epistle, and suffering injustice willingly for the sake of the faith - it's been the primary set of epistle readings from the three-year lectionary this Easter season. Quote:
Which brings me to my next point: why would a pacifist Christian, be part of a firearms board?
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#23
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Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
—Matthew 10:34–37 |
#24
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Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind. Exodus 21:12 (NIV) Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. Exodus 21:22-23 (NIV) If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life
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Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement." One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. ~ Ronald Reagan |
#25
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#26
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Genesis 9:6 (NIV) "Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind." Notice, he said, "by humans shall their blood be shed." He gave humans the authority to execute another human - lawfully. Quote:
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John 19:11 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” Quote:
Again, not an enormous problem. That form of punishment has been authorized. |
#27
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2 Timothy 3:16-17 English Standard Version (ESV) 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work. In other words, what's in the Old Testament as well as what's written by other people besides Jesus in the New Testament are all inspired by God and is infallible and inerrant. Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but he came to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17-20 English Standard Version (ESV) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore, he is not abolishing eye for an eye (i.e. capital punishment). His sermon on the mount calling us to turn the other cheek relates to personal conduct. He is calling us to forego personal vengeance; rather, practice patience and mercy. |
#29
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Society has an obligation to protect the members of that society. Christianity expects that we love our neighbors and forgive those who wrong us. There is not question what the right answer is when it comes to a rabid dog. You kill it. This is done to protect society. It not done out of hate or fear, in fact, it is often a mercy to the animal. When it comes to animals wearing the skin of a man, the same thing applies. Society must protect society. Imprisonment is a punishment imposed with the hope that the imprisoned will pay his debt and become an upstanding member of society again. Never mind that it very rarely works out that way. We continue to hope. But those man-shaped animal will never become anything other than a danger and must be put down. Just like with the rabid dog, we must protect society and put the animal down. It must not be done out of hate or fear, but with forgiveness. And all possible haste. And who but the members of society, through the due process of the courts, should make the decision? BTW, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is NOT a Christian value. That is purely Old Testament and was superseded by the teachings of Christ. You know, "turn the other cheek?"
Rusty Bolts
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#30
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Let me post this, from the Old Testament. God speaking to Noah and effectively turning punishment for crimes over to man. Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. |
#31
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Capital punishment, defined as death imposed as a criminal penalty, is a fairly recent and merciful innovation. Prior to the late 18th century (invention of the guillotine) death was a by product of the punishment. For an excellent, if somewhat gruesome, discussion see Dan Carlin’s “Hardcore History” podcast on the subject.
It is available here: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/ha...ainfotainment/
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Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. Mark Twain "One argues to a judge, one does not argue with a judge." Me "Never argue unless you are getting paid." CDAA "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw Last edited by flyer898; 05-16-2020 at 5:24 AM.. Reason: Shorten |
#33
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The right way to proceed is to see what the scriptures say, not what you want them to say, but what they actually say. Keep in mind they were written for you but not TO you. So, to really seek their meaning, you must go to the original language and research the world view of the writer and original readers of any given book. Sure its a bit of work but it is doable.
You will find, for example, that the commandment actually says "though shall not murder", translations that say "kill" instead are just inaccurate. There is a huge difference there and you will find that all the scriptures are consistent, God does not forbid capital punishment or killing in war or self defense etc. That may be at odds with your world view but it is nevertheless what the scriptures state. |
#34
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For the " Thou shalt not kill " crowd: did you ever read the translation of the word " kill " in a Hebrew dictionary or in Strongs concordance ? Try it and see what is written there. Doctors kill people every day thru malpractice and drunks kill people many times a year in traffic accidents, so how is it sorted out? The translation I referenced " To DASH in pieces " which to me implies a action of violence. In the gosples Jesus was reputed to say " ye have heard of old time thou shalt kill " and in the aforementioned Strongs concordance it reads " do no murder ." Plenty of references in the OT dealing with what to do with murderers. Just sayin, yes locomike you got it right.
Psalm1 Last edited by Garand Hunter; 05-16-2020 at 8:33 AM.. Reason: sentence structure |
#35
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Look up David Westerfield and David Allen Lucas. The former raped and murdered a 7 year old girl. The latter killed the 3 year old daughter of a guy I used to play music with though the DA couldn't get that one to stick. He was just convicted for killing two women and a 3 year old boy.
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Mojave Lever Crew Member "It is time for us to do what we have been doing and that time is every day. Every day it is time for us to agree that there are things and tools that are available to us to slow this thing down." - Kamala "Heels Up" Harris Slava Ukraini (Слава Україні) |
#36
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However, I have the right to use the justice system to file assault charge against him, as God instituted government to apply justice. |
#37
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I'm definitely against it, although not necessarily for religious reasons. Our criminal justice system has convicted many innocent people. Our juries routinely get it wrong. Giving them the responsibility to take one's life is a bad idea.
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#38
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A legitimate reason. I can see that
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#39
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Even vicious serial murderer Ted Bundy was trying to bargain for his life when he was executed. He murdered so many, yet he didn’t want to die himself. State sponsored execution is not just a punishment, but a deterrent for some. Yes the Bible says an eye for an eye and follow laws and obey your employer, etc...but these are laws and punishments on earth. If you don’t repent for your sins and change then when your day of reckoning comes before God you’ll be judged for eternity.
On another note, abortion is legal in the United States. These unborn babies are of no threat to anyone and have never harmed anyone. Do you consider abortion murder too? If I had the power to save one or the other, it certainly wouldn’t be the convicted killer. |
#40
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Philosophical hand wringing, the Bible is clear. You take a life, you must pay with yours. Society and the rules of proper human conduct have become so laden with exceptions, exclusions, and mainly excuses. It makes capital punishment difficult if not impossible to implement.
Gas chamber, electric chair, lethal injection. 20 years worth of court battles, millions in legal fees. Simple firing squad, 1873 Supreme Court ruled it as a proper humane legal manner of execution. No more hand wringing about which method. A2 |
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