Warning

[dphd]

I searched the forum several times but can't seem to find any information on this. I obviously know brandishing is a felony, but what if you are in a situation that seems like it could escalate and you don't see any way to de-escalate the situation, can you legally warn someone letting them know that you are armed?

[SkyHawk]

Depending on how you word it, it could be considered a threat. And no matter what, the story that is relayed to cops will make it seem like it was said in a threatening manner. Without an audio recording or several neutral witnesses with excellent memories, when the cops show up all you have is a gun and someone saying you threatened to use it. How do you think that will go down at the IA CCW office?

Personally I'd want my firearm to be a surprise if it came down to needing it to save my life. I don't want a perp to know I have it unless and until I have my hands on it and it is clear of my holster. Otherwise you might get jumped for the gun while it is still in a holster under your shirt, before you ever have a chance to draw. Then you are in a fight for a gun.

[seal20]

That's not what "Uncle Joe" said....

[P5Ret]

This is why after any defensive use of anything that can be considered a weapon you need to be on the phone ASAP! A recorded call to the effect of "I was just involved in an incident where it was necessary to display _______ to prevent myself or _______ from being injured/attacked. Please send the police to __________. I do not know where the other person/s are and I have secured _________". You do not need to go into great detail with the dispatcher, but don't be rude. and answer the questions they ask.

OH and brandishing is a misdemeanor, in nearly all circumstances.

[Robotron2k84]

The old adage applies: only unconceal if you intend to defend yourself. Otherwise, walk away, there is no SYG provision here. And the other situations discussed above.

CALCRIM #505 and #506, discuss how a jury may acquit for SYG, but it's not codified in the P.C.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/do...s.pdf#page=289

http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/do...s.pdf#page=295

California's stand-your-ground defense as part of the justifiable homicide rules has several conditions. Aggressors are not eligible for this -- you must be defending, not striking first. You, as a reasonable person, would have to believe the danger is imminent and not a threat at some time in the future. Also, you had to have believed that deadly force was necessary, and you had to have used just enough force to defend yourself. However, a defendant does not have to be correct about having actually been in danger. A jury can acquit if they think the defendant reasonably believed that mortal danger was truly there.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by P5Ret

This is why after any defensive use of anything that can be considered a weapon you need to be on the phone ASAP! A recorded call to the effect of "I was just involved in an incident where it was necessary to display _______ to prevent myself or _______ from being injured/attacked. Please send the police to __________. I do not know where the other person/s are and I have secured _________". You do not need to go into great detail with the dispatcher, but don't be rude. and answer the questions they ask.

OH and brandishing is a misdemeanor, in nearly all circumstances.

CA does not use the term 'brandishing' - the equivalent is PC 417 (a)

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person,

draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded,

in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:

(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months.

and, as P5Ret notes, misdemeanor.

[Brother_Hesekiel]

Originally Posted by Librarian

CA does not use the term 'brandishing' - the equivalent is PC 417 (a) and, as P5Ret notes, misdemeanor.

"In a threatening, angry manner . . . "

If a presumed victim is confronted by 2 or 3 thugs that are approaching him and ask for his wallet or else, I don't see a problem with announcing to them that you are armed while moving your hand to your concealed weapon. Oftentimes, I would venture to guess, that's all it takes for the want-to-be robbers to abandon their plan, turn around, and run away. I can't imagine that the presumed victim would have to fire at them to avoid prosecution for PC417, yes?

[dphd]

Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel

"In a threatening, angry manner . . . "

If a presumed victim is confronted by 2 or 3 thugs that are approaching him and ask for his wallet or else, I don't see a problem with announcing to them that you are armed while moving your hand to your concealed weapon. Oftentimes, I would venture to guess, that's all it takes for the want-to-be robbers to abandon their plan, turn around, and run away. I can't imagine that the presumed victim would have to fire at them to avoid prosecution for PC417, yes?

This is the type of scenario that I am referring to. Or if the person is approaching aggressively and there isn't any way to get out and clearly they plan to use violence.

[robert101]

In the situation you describe pulling out your gun may be justified. There are numerous factors involved but if you have valid reason to believe your life is being threatened by multiple attackers - you have a very good reason to react to protect yourself.

If they have weapons that would solidify the argument. First priority is to disengage if not possible then you have to defend. Not all jurisdictions have a 'castle doctrine'.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel

Oftentimes, I would venture to guess, that's all it takes for the want-to-be robbers to abandon their plan, turn around, and run away.

For the most part you would probably be guessing wrong. The person who turns around and runs away was likely the person that was going to ask you for change or a cigarette. The thugs don't blanche at the sight of a gun and might even try to take it from you.

If you go down the road of reaching for a weapon, you darn well need to be prepared to use it.

[dphd]

Originally Posted by mej16489

For the most part you would probably be guessing wrong. The person who turns around and runs away was likely the person that was going to ask you for change or a cigarette. The thugs don't blanche at the sight of a gun and might even try to take it from you.

If you go down the road of reaching for a weapon, you darn well need to be prepared to use it.

I disagree. There are high statistics where a gun was used for self defense and a shot was never fired.

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control...on/#note-97-12

https://gunowners.org/sk0802htm/

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by dphd

I disagree. There are high statistics where a gun was used for self defense and a shot was never fired.

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control...on/#note-97-12

https://gunowners.org/sk0802htm/

I'm well aware that more often then not a shot doesn't need to be fired; but we weren't discussing 'all instances', the specific topic that I was addressing was 'the aggressively approaching group'

[vandal]

Craig Douglas suggested as part of an escalating response, verbalizing something along the lines of "Hey dude, back up, I don't want any trouble, I'm armed."

[Old_Bald_Guy]

Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel

"In a threatening, angry manner . . . "



If a presumed victim is confronted by 2 or 3 thugs that are approaching him and ask for his wallet or else, I don't see a problem with announcing to them that you are armed while moving your hand to your concealed weapon. Oftentimes, I would venture to guess, that's all it takes for the want-to-be robbers to abandon their plan, turn around, and run away. I can't imagine that the presumed victim would have to fire at them to avoid prosecution for PC417, yes?

In that situation, when 2 or 3 subjects are approaching and demanding your wallet and making it clear that they intend to do you harm if if don’t comply, why would you ever announce you’re armed *before* you draw?

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by vandal

Craig Douglas suggested as part of an escalating response, verbalizing something along the lines of "Hey dude, back up, I don't want any trouble, I'm armed."

I would not tell someone acting aggressively toward me that I am armed unless my weapon had "cleared leather" as my LEO friends like to say. And I would not draw my weapon unless I could show that I was in immediate fear of death or great bodily injury. Unfortunately, this does not provide room for displaying my weapon in an attempt to de-escalate the situation.

[ACfixer]

I just can't really see drawing to de-escalate. Maybe someone with a knife or a bat outside the 20' circle I guess? I don't know... YMMV, but I just can't see it ending well.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy

In that situation, when 2 or 3 subjects are approaching and demanding your wallet and making it clear that they intend to do you harm if if don’t comply, why would you ever announce you’re armed *before* you draw?

[baranski]

Originally Posted by dphd

This is the type of scenario that I am referring to. Or if the person is approaching aggressively and there isn't any way to get out and clearly they plan to use violence.

At that point they would likely be within 21 feet and you should be reacting, not announcing. If you see a weapon, announcing "drop the weapon" loud and repeating whilst drawing your weapon or having sights on target.


Respectfully I suggest seeking some training with a qualified and educated instructor. Then make sure you have carry insurance.

[caliberetta]

The only time my pistol would come out of the holster is if I'm already in a real life threatening situation. At that point, the least of my worries would getting in trouble for brandishing.

I realize that is easier said than done, but that's how I like to think about it.

In a situation where things are just right on the line, we can opt to put a hand on the grip of the gun and attempt to direct the situation without unholstering, much like the cops do.
.

[denpython]

Thread seems to be about CCW ,but what about inside one's home?
Is it OK to investigate suspicious events openly armed inside of home? That is not ' brandishing' right?
Thanks

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by denpython

Thread seems to be about CCW ,but what about inside one's home?
Is it OK to investigate suspicious events openly armed inside of home? That is not ' brandishing' right?
Thanks

Thread is about CCW since it is inside the CCW sub-forum

(warning I'm not a lawyer): I think you can walk around alone inside your house with a loaded gun in your hand everyday, all day and all night long even without a threat or anything suspicious.

I think you can even answer the doorbell with it in broad daylight (obviously not advised if it's the FEDEX guy or the neighbor's kid selling cookies).
.

[Foebia]

When things get warm just do a press check, dont make eye contact. J/k btw

[ACfixer]

Originally Posted by denpython

Thread seems to be about CCW ,but what about inside one's home?
Is it OK to investigate suspicious events openly armed inside of home? That is not ' brandishing' right?
Thanks

In your home the game changes significantly and California's castle doctrine actually isn't horrible. If someone comes in my home looking for trouble they'll find it and I'm not going to investigate with my Glock in a holster.

[denpython]

Thanks ACfixer,that is what I needed to know!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Rickrock1]

Tagg

[FresnoRob]

As others have said, I would never announce I’m armed unless my weapon is already out. For a simple pest who I don’t feel is a real threat I also carry pepper spray.

[eross24]

Originally Posted by FresnoRob

As others have said, I would never announce I’m armed unless my weapon is already out. For a simple pest who I don’t feel is a real threat I also carry pepper spray.

This.
Drawing your firearm is not a way to de-escalate a situation. It is possible that after you draw they may think better of advancing and leave but it should only be drawn at a point where you are willing to pull the trigger.
the vast majority of people are going to disengage once pepper gel comes into the picture and you now have the upper hand in trying to resolve the situation with an aggressive person using non lethal means.
if trying to talk them down, leaving the area, using pepper spray/gel doesn't stop them then you have a much better pathway towards using lethal force when it comes to Law Enforcement and courts are going to view.

[Brother_Hesekiel]

Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy

In that situation, when 2 or 3 subjects are approaching and demanding your wallet and making it clear that they intend to do you harm if if don’t comply, why would you ever announce you’re armed *before* you draw?

Let me try to answer that.

1) Nothing is really "clear" in a situation like this. If I'm out in the dark, a 61-year-old, walking my little dog in a remote area and 3 guys I perceive as a possible tread approach me, I can't be sure 'til the first one attacks me. By then it may be too late to draw. So I'd like to avoid becoming a victim, but I also cannot draw or even expose my weapon for the legal reasons stated. It's a mental barrier that may prevent a crime from happening.

2) Because really the last thing I want to do is shoot somebody. I will pull the trigger if I have to in order to save my own life, but it's not something I would put on the table of options from the start.

The question also is, when becomes "asking for change (money)" an attempted robbery? I'm sure we can make that determination, but at that point the perceived suspect may be well within my personal bubble, be able to touch me, get angry, etc.
I learned that while I cannot expose my weapon, it's okay to announce that you are armed once you feel threatened.

[Old_Bald_Guy]

My interpretation of the hypothetical you described, Br. Hesekiel, was that 2-3 male subjects were approaching and *demanding* your wallet “OR ELSE,” was that you were describing a robbery attempt. My specific question was why anyone would ever say, “Hey, I have a gun” in some kind of attempt to thwart what already appears to be a robbery in progress (based on how you described it) WHEN THE GUN IS STILL HOLSTERED.

In my opinion, telling someone you’re armed when it’s still holstered (especially telling 2 or 3 people who have established physical proximity and have already exhibited the key behaviors that define a violent felony with you as the intended victim) is a stupid act. Telling anyone at all you’re armed unless the situation justifies drawing the weapon and you’ve already done that seems less than bright.
.............


Edited 29 times or some such. Posted w/o sufficient caffeine on board.

[dphd]

I guess a clearer example is of an employee/instructor at the local range I go to was at a walmart and a guy started hassling him and was on a bicycle. The guy wasn't too close and pulled out a knife and the instructor told him that he was armed and the guy backed off, then the instructor called the police. I just didn't know if it was legal to inform someone that you are armed in a situation like that.

[eross24]

Originally Posted by dphd

I guess a clearer example is of an employee/instructor at the local range I go to was at a walmart and a guy started hassling him and was on a bicycle. The guy wasn't too close and pulled out a knife and the instructor told him that he was armed and the guy backed off, then the instructor called the police. I just didn't know if it was legal to inform someone that you are armed in a situation like that.

in a perfect world this would be a non issue.
in the world we are in now: the guy on the bike will tell Police he asked you for change and you told him "**** OFF I HAVE A GUN, GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY" or some crap like that.

you obviously should do what you feel is necessary if a threat is felt but remember that you will have to deal with whatever fall out may happen even if giving a warning works perfectly and it becomes a he-said-she-said thing.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by dphd

I guess a clearer example is of an employee/instructor at the local range I go to was at a walmart and a guy started hassling him and was on a bicycle. The guy wasn't too close and pulled out a knife and the instructor told him that he was armed and the guy backed off, then the instructor called the police. I just didn't know if it was legal to inform someone that you are armed in a situation like that.

You can TELL anybody anything. “I have a Black Belt” (hopefully, it’s a coordinated ensemble); “I’ve called the police” (and you haven’t), etc.

Your question pertains to “brandishing” which, as has been noted, doesn’t exist. Rather, we operate under the provisions of PC 417. So long as you don’t exhibit the weapon in a threatening manner, you’re clear. However, if you do so in self-defense, the statute clears you.

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows

If you feel threatened, you should be saying things like, “Please, leave me alone. I am in fear of my life.” “The three of you are younger and stronger than me and I am in fear of my life.” Say it often and loudly, perhaps with a, “Help; help.” Which others can hear. Saying it while your cellphone is dialed to 911 is also a good idea.

If you want to completely disengage, start shouting “Fire!” People won’t come out to stop a robbery or help, but they will sure as heck come out to watch a fire. That puts witnesses in the street..walk away.

[SnWnMe]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

Depending on how you word it, it could be considered a threat. And no matter what, the story that is relayed to cops will make it seem like it was said in a threatening manner. Without an audio recording or several neutral witnesses with excellent memories, when the cops show up all you have is a gun and someone saying you threatened to use it. How do you think that will go down at the IA CCW office?

Personally I'd want my firearm to be a surprise if it came down to needing it to save my life. I don't want a perp to know I have it unless and until I have my hands on it and it is clear of my holster. Otherwise you might get jumped for the gun while it is still in a holster under your shirt, before you ever have a chance to draw. Then you are in a fight for a gun.

^^^

I think of my CCW as a knife. Once you see it, that means it's too late to avoid it.

[Roering]

If you are being robbed then your life is being threatened. There are cases where people have complied with giving up their wallet/purses/etc. and have then been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc.

I would shout "GET BACK" while drawing. If they advance, shooting is justified.

First priority is that you live right?