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  #41  
Old 02-14-2020, 8:55 AM
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All kinds. Its widely known that 5.56 it not the 1 shot killer everyone wants to think. Can it yes.
I read a Story of a Special Forces team that that was dumping half mags of 5.56 in combatants and they kept fighting . A couple of the guys where running M1A in 7.62 and dropping guys in 1 shot.
Thats why I prefer a good M1a . Yes I own a Bunch of Ar-15 in multiple configurations. But if **** goes Down I'm grabbing my M1a.
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  #42  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
All kinds. Its widely known that 5.56 it not the 1 shot killer everyone wants to think. Can it yes.
I read a Story of a Special Forces team that that was dumping half mags of 5.56 in combatants and they kept fighting . A couple of the guys where running M1A in 7.62 and dropping guys in 1 shot.
Thats why I prefer a good M1a . Yes I own a Bunch of Ar-15 in multiple configurations. But if **** goes Down I'm grabbing my M1a.
M1As are heavy. Iím grabbing my AR-10 with 25 round mags.
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  #43  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
All kinds. Its widely known that 5.56 it not the 1 shot killer everyone wants to think. Can it yes.
I read a Story of a Special Forces team that that was dumping half mags of 5.56 in combatants and they kept fighting . A couple of the guys where running M1A in 7.62 and dropping guys in 1 shot.
Thats why I prefer a good M1a . Yes I own a Bunch of Ar-15 in multiple configurations. But if **** goes Down I'm grabbing my M1a.
556 is so much easier to carry. an ar15 is much lighter than any gun i can think of i would take as a second choice.

it is an obviously light round. it doe snothing to my steel plates other than pit them but my 7.62x39 or 308 knocks my plates off the hangers.
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  #44  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:26 AM
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Been reloading 223 for 15 years. Got the full gamut from 40 to 80 grain, FMJ, HPBT, polytip, spitzer, steel core, with and w/o cannelures. Loads differ depending on barrel and type of shooting.


Last edited by alpha_romeo_XV; 02-17-2020 at 6:28 PM..
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  #45  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
All kinds. Its widely known that 5.56 it not the 1 shot killer everyone wants to think. Can it yes.
I read a Story of a Special Forces team that that was dumping half mags of 5.56 in combatants and they kept fighting . A couple of the guys where running M1A in 7.62 and dropping guys in 1 shot.
Thats why I prefer a good M1a . Yes I own a Bunch of Ar-15 in multiple configurations. But if **** goes Down I'm grabbing my M1a.
You're talking fmj and target bullets out of 14.5 and 11.5 inch barrels, with a round that counts on high velocity. I don't have that restriction, so I have 16 and 20 inch barrels using bonded soft points, and barrier blind bullets when I need to punch through something.

Sure, if I thought I'd never have to carry the crap anywhere, one of my .308's would be better. But that's not what to OP asked.
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  #46  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:48 AM
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Interesting read, but you gotta read the whole article. All of his experience is with NATO (FMJ) rounds. Last paragraph he mentions Chris Kyle turned him onto some soft point 5.56 and it performed much better than the NATO stuff. He shot some deer with it and really liked how it performed. I remember reading another article about the Mk 262 ammo and how it's not a typical hollow point that mushrooms, but the open tip breaks off on impact and sends the bullet tumbling. The guy in that article said he and others shooting BGs with those were way more impressed with it than the NATO stuff, as well. Get you some good ammo, not FMJ, if you're shooting something other than paper and steel.
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  #47  
Old 02-14-2020, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Yeah. Reading that has me wondering about the true effectiveness of the Mk 262 ammo.

OTOH, a friend of mine has said for years that he used to hunt deer (whitetail I imagine) with his AR-15 and would drop them where they stood with a well placed shot---through the spine near the neck or shoulder---using 55gr handloads. But of course those were soft-point bullets.
shot placement is always the best in bringing down a target. but in combat, targets are moving and shooting at you. i'd take heed of what the author said, bring the heavy/heaviest sp/hp rounds. he has the logs to prove it.
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  #48  
Old 02-14-2020, 10:38 AM
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I keep a lot of 55gr. .223 for plinking and range use. Have a few boxes of 64gr. ranger soft points if needed.
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  #49  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:03 AM
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The combat medic who wrote that article talked about shooting people in the chest and watching them still in the fight - so the idea I had that his logs were supplying information that was being studied incorrectly - seems to be wrong.

I was thinking of those aircraft that came back from missions in WW2 with lots of damage to certain parts - leading people to believe those parts of the plane needed to be reinforced - instead of realizing that aircraft hit in other parts weren't coming back - so they were considering reinforcing the wrong parts of the planes. https://www.trevorbragdon.com/blog/w...wrong-solution

Taking a 223 square in the head at short range and surviving? Fired at an angle and deflected off the skull - ? Too bad more information was not provided on that part of his story.

Any ammunition choices recommended - ?
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  #50  
Old 02-14-2020, 11:35 AM
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Precisely 2,687 rounds, mostly 55 grain XM193 except for 100 rounds 62 grain SS109.
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  #51  
Old 02-14-2020, 3:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
that was pretty interesting to hear from somebody that saw so much.
he might be saying afghan soldiers and gang bangers aren't good shots as much as small calibers don't kill with one shot.
his example of a one shot kill .45cal was center sternum out the spine.
he didn't say anyone survived the same shot with 9mm.

that said, 5.56 isn't a one shot killer, perhaps because the military knows a dead soldier is one less combatant firing back, but a wounded soldier is 1-3 combatants not firing back, because they are dealing with the wounded guy.
Then the military should be using .22 LR weapons. Lots of wound potential.
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  #52  
Old 02-14-2020, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
M1As are heavy. Iím grabbing my AR-10 with 25 round mags.
A couple of trips to the gym a YEAR is all that is needed to make the M1A NOT heavy.
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  #53  
Old 02-14-2020, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
Then the military should be using .22 LR weapons. Lots of wound potential.
lol, i don't think the .22lr has enough gas to cross the battlefield,

.223 ain't all that much bigger, but has a lot more behind it.


Last edited by theLBC; 02-14-2020 at 6:21 PM..
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  #54  
Old 02-14-2020, 5:01 PM
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62 grains and heavier for me. Love the Federal GMM 69s. Have green tips stacked fairly deep but I’m another M1A guy. Nine 20 round magazines (1 in the rifle) with the H or Y harness and an azzpack isn’t all that heavy. Just flops around a little is all.

You get what you pay for with all ammunition. I’ve tried Federal black and green box cartridges that had me questioning giving up shooting altogether the groupings were so poor.
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  #55  
Old 02-14-2020, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
M1As are heavy. I’m grabbing my AR-10 with 25 round mags.
I'd bet a Ar 10 vs M1a is Very close in weight. Ar 15 depending on accessories is 7 to 10 lbs M1a Socom is 9.5 lbs with a empty mag.

Last edited by dozer wright; 02-14-2020 at 5:34 PM..
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2020, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
I'd bet a Ar 10 vs M1a is Very close in weight.
I should think nearly unnoticeable.
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  #57  
Old 02-14-2020, 5:40 PM
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Being new to the AR this year I have been running whatever to see what works best,yeah a old fart CAN learn new tricks.
I have used a AK with 30 round east german mags for the house since the early 80s and yeah the Garand is heavy and long for the house so I stick to the short suff,Mossberg 500 18inch and sleep with whatever pistol I feel like at the moment.Now I have 3 ARs I built this year so I am having fun learning a new platform.
Tacticle rifleman on you tube has real world usage of 556 and other calibers,he should know as a Green Beret.
Forgotten weapons on youtube has him shooting a M14 full auto.
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  #58  
Old 02-14-2020, 5:54 PM
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I have a few magazines loaded with Speer Lawman softpoint ammo, and a few more loaded with Hornady TAP rounds. Other than that I buy whatever I can find cheap as long as it is brass cased and feeds / functions reliably.
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  #59  
Old 02-14-2020, 6:06 PM
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Since the boating accident, nada...
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  #60  
Old 02-14-2020, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
You're talking fmj and target bullets out of 14.5 and 11.5 inch barrels, with a round that counts on high velocity. I don't have that restriction, so I have 16 and 20 inch barrels using bonded soft points, and barrier blind bullets when I need to punch through something.
That's also the reason why short barrels like that never appealed to me. Mine are in the 16-20" range.
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  #61  
Old 02-14-2020, 6:26 PM
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Anyone out there have a 1:9 twist barrel on their rifle? If so, in here it says that the much maligned M855 and the newer M855A1 ammunition actually shoot really well out of 1:9 barrels, which the M855 was actually designed to be used in. That is, if this discussion includes barrier penetration as part of self defense.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...all-cartridge/

Still, either of these bullets are only 62 gr in weight and don't expand at all. So maybe not worth thinking about.
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  #62  
Old 02-14-2020, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
I should think nearly unnoticeable.
That's pretty much my point. Ar 15 is 7 plus lbs depending on accessories a Ar10 is 9ish lbs I'd bet many here have Ar15/10s that are much heavier, a M1a is 9.5 to 10 lbs. If your so concerned about the ineffectiveness of 223/5.56 maybe time to step up. To a different caliber.
Just for Jiggles my Ar15 with Franklin billet upper/lower 1x6 heavy 16 inch barrel , Magpul stock and A Troy Handguard , back up sights and Pws cqb is just shy of 10 lbs unloaded.
My M1a Socom is 10 lbs unloaded. My M1a Socom in a Chassi with a 1x6 mount and magpul stock is 12.5 lbs

Last edited by dozer wright; 02-14-2020 at 6:45 PM..
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  #63  
Old 02-14-2020, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
The combat medic who wrote that article talked about shooting people in the chest and watching them still in the fight - so the idea I had that his logs were supplying information that was being studied incorrectly - seems to be wrong.

I was thinking of those aircraft that came back from missions in WW2 with lots of damage to certain parts - leading people to believe those parts of the plane needed to be reinforced - instead of realizing that aircraft hit in other parts weren't coming back - so they were considering reinforcing the wrong parts of the planes. https://www.trevorbragdon.com/blog/w...wrong-solution
Great observation and great article. Thanks! We don't know that the medic-author logged every single KIA and wounded in his area, or just the ones he personally observed or were brought to his base of operation. Might have been a lot of one-shot kills that never met his notice. We can't say.

Did anyone else read through the comments? I thought some of those were thought provoking as well.
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Old 02-14-2020, 7:22 PM
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Black Hills 70gr TSX is my go to ammo in 5.56
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  #65  
Old 02-14-2020, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
lol, i don't think the .22lr has enough gas to cross the battlefield,

.223 ain't all that much bigger, but has a lot more behind it.


Saying any military force has wounding the enemy as its main objective is about as silly a notion as I can imagine. This isn't paintball where a hit soldier is out of the game and stops playing when hit.
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  #66  
Old 02-14-2020, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
And not on a tablet either. But on a LT/Windows screen, you have to scroll for about 2 minutes to even know what it's a picture of.
I just take the picture and post it. Computer code is beyond my capabilities.

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  #67  
Old 02-14-2020, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
The combat medic who wrote that article talked about shooting people in the chest and watching them still in the fight - so the idea I had that his logs were supplying information that was being studied incorrectly - seems to be wrong.

I was thinking of those aircraft that came back from missions in WW2 with lots of damage to certain parts - leading people to believe those parts of the plane needed to be reinforced - instead of realizing that aircraft hit in other parts weren't coming back - so they were considering reinforcing the wrong parts of the planes. https://www.trevorbragdon.com/blog/w...wrong-solution

Taking a 223 square in the head at short range and surviving? Fired at an angle and deflected off the skull - ? Too bad more information was not provided on that part of his story.

Any ammunition choices recommended - ?
I didn't catch on to this until I saw your comment, then it clicked. A combat medic is a noncombatant. Why is a noncombatant talking about engaging in offensive activities? They are issued firearms for defensive purposes only. I'm starting to wonder about the credibility of this whole thing.


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  #68  
Old 02-14-2020, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
Then the military should be using .22 LR weapons. Lots of wound potential.
Wound potential =/= wound guarantee

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  #69  
Old 02-14-2020, 7:58 PM
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the take away from the author's perspective is that when you miss the vital organs, the heavier grain sp/hp will inflict greater damage and bleed faster.
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  #70  
Old 02-14-2020, 8:12 PM
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Interesting article. But like what was said in the articles last paragraph, it's not so much the "caliber" as it is the "bullet".
*Disclaimer; I've never used 5.56 on humans and I hope that I never have to. So the following are my opinions based on shooting, reloading, and popping the occasional coyote with various 223 loads over the years.
FMJ/ball rounds are far less lethal than anything that expands, whether that means soft, hollow, ballistic, whatever.
It's pretty common knowledge that the 62gr M855 is not an ideal round for soft targets. The steel penetrator, that was designed to pop Ivans body armor, over stabilizes the round and negates the tumbling. Making through and through wounds more common.
The 55gr XM193 was designed for 20" 1/12 twist barrels moving at ~3000+fps in order to induce yaw. But, when fired out of the more common 16" 1/7,8,or 9 twist barrels it becomes over stabilized, and again, negates tumbling.
The MK262 77gr OTM has a cult-like following and has a solid reputation as to it's lethality downrange.

Me personally, I try to stay stocked up on Hornady 75gr bthp bullets. With 8208 XBR powder they fly around 2600ish fps from my 16" 1/7 rifles. Accurate, and heavy enough to be a great do-all round for this caliber. They're moderately priced enough (~$75/500. Way cheaper than 77smk) so that I can load up on them and actually shoot them without feeling too guilty about the cost.
I also like Hornady's 55gr cannelured soft point bullets. Loaded with H335 powder these fly around 2800ish fps and are even cheaper (~$75/1000) to reload. This is a great plinking round that packs enough *** to be considered for HD.
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*Disclaimer; I'm only joking about the dems.

Last edited by nodnarb77; 02-15-2020 at 1:04 PM..
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  #71  
Old 02-14-2020, 8:14 PM
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There's variable not being addressed here that could make or break that claim. For example, speed ◊ weight = force. If the heavier bullet is able to get up to a speed that's sufficient then I see the potential. Lighter bullets get up to speed faster. This is where I foresee barrel length, powder, etc. all being relevant.

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  #72  
Old 02-14-2020, 9:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
I'd bet a Ar 10 vs M1a is Very close in weight. Ar 15 depending on accessories is 7 to 10 lbs M1a Socom is 9.5 lbs with a empty mag.
Empty mag isn't much good unless you're in a parade. If you're realistic compare them with a full load.
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Old 02-15-2020, 3:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Transient View Post
I didn't catch on to this until I saw your comment, then it clicked. A combat medic is a noncombatant. Why is a noncombatant talking about engaging in offensive activities? They are issued firearms for defensive purposes only. I'm starting to wonder about the credibility of this whole thing.


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I am pretty sure those medically trained members of those small teams are armed. They were in the Vietnam War and I would think the same is still true.
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  #74  
Old 02-15-2020, 3:35 AM
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I have a mixed of 223/556 mix inside a 50 cal can. Since I have 4 types of upper complete, the barrel 3 are 1:7 and other is 1:8 Most are from Wal-Mart and gun show so most of you guys know 223\556 theirs only a few type of Gr out so I'm not going to say what gr I currently used because I'm currently using what you guys are using. since I don't reload like some and I just buy ammo only. These three type fmj, hp, spj all these are currently in one 50 cal can. Most of my mags are load with SPJ and HP. However I load two mags of fmj... One in 30 and 20, The other three mags I load SPJ-Hp, SPJ-fmj and HP-fmj. Don't ask why but I just do it and most of The Gr are pretty close to one another.
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  #75  
Old 02-15-2020, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead View Post
I mainly have 55 and 62, but I was looking at this article and wondered what others here have with their AR 15s.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/me...can-hit-shoot/

*conus - Continental United States - oconus - Outside Continental United States
*Contiguous, not continental.
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  #76  
Old 02-15-2020, 6:49 AM
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*Contiguous, not continental.
I stand corrected, I saw this definition for OCONUS:

OCONUS = Outside Continental United States

and thought the "C" in CONUS would be the same.
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Old 02-15-2020, 7:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Empty mag isn't much good unless you're in a parade. If you're realistic compare them with a full load.
How is is it not a Good comparison. Even if the loaded M1a mag weighs double. The shooter is getting a better round. .
AR 30 mag weighs 1 lb a , 20rd a M1a mag 1lb 7 ounces. According to the Internet .
Very little differnce. I'll weigh mine later to confirm .
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  #78  
Old 02-15-2020, 7:17 AM
Ki6vsm Ki6vsm is offline
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Originally Posted by Transient View Post
There's variable not being addressed here that could make or break that claim. For example, speed ◊ weight = force. If the heavier bullet is able to get up to a speed that's sufficient then I see the potential. Lighter bullets get up to speed faster. This is where I foresee barrel length, powder, etc. all being relevant.
Actually, velocity related to barrel length was addressed. See post #45.
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  #79  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:23 AM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
*Contiguous, not continental.
Lower 48, eh.
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  #80  
Old 02-15-2020, 11:24 AM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
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Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
How is is it not a Good comparison. Even if the loaded M1a mag weighs double. The shooter is getting a better round. .
AR 30 mag weighs 1 lb a , 20rd a M1a mag 1lb 7 ounces. According to the Internet .
Very little differnce. I'll weigh mine later to confirm .
The thread is about 5.56.
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