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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #12201  
Old 09-18-2020, 4:31 PM
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Is it overkill to have a +6 Mag extension tube on a semi-auto shotgun in 2 Day Tactical Class?
What is the advantage of having matchsaverz vs none?

I have both pump and semi and I am not sure what to bring to my class next month. I was thinking of bringing the pump on the 2day Tac and semi-auto on the Skill Builder. The purpose is really to learn how to run both. Any thoughts?
  #12202  
Old 09-18-2020, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proglock View Post
Is it overkill to have a +6 Mag extension tube on a semi-auto shotgun in 2 Day Tactical Class?
What is the advantage of having matchsaverz vs none?

I have both pump and semi and I am not sure what to bring to my class next month. I was thinking of bringing the pump on the 2day Tac and semi-auto on the Skill Builder. The purpose is really to learn how to run both. Any thoughts?
Not overkill at all. Run it. Bring them both and have fun!
  #12203  
Old 09-18-2020, 9:07 PM
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@proglock, the biggest benefit (for me anyway) of the Matchsaver(z) was increasing speed in the Select Slug drill. You don't have to worry about grabbing the slug out of your holder (usually side saddle or belt holder for most people), indexing it, and inserting it. Instead you basically have it staged in in the Matchsaver(z) and just slide it the last inch into the chamber.
  #12204  
Old 09-19-2020, 8:06 AM
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Many would claim Matchsavers have no place on a defensive shotgun.
  #12205  
Old 09-19-2020, 9:19 AM
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Do tell.
  #12206  
Old 09-19-2020, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Many would claim Matchsavers have no place on a defensive shotgun.
If you train with something and keep it on your home defense firearm, I have a tough time following your logic.
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  #12207  
Old 09-19-2020, 11:35 AM
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Anyone using a padded vest/jacket for the 4-day tactical shotgun class?

I have a nice recoil pad on my 590A1, but 4 days seems like it might tear up my shoulder by the end of the class, and am taking the 4-day defensive handgun class right after.
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  #12208  
Old 09-19-2020, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paseclipse View Post
I've done RM using a Bushnell AR Optic 4.5-18 which is a bit of an overkill for the distances you shoot in this course. Mounted it on an AR.

Other things to consider which help a lot-

Bipod- for shooting prone at 150+ yard distances. A backpack will work too.
Sandbag- used to steady rifle while shooting prone with a bipod.
Sling- can be used to help steady the rifle in the standing and prone positions at 100 yards and less. I'd recommend a Magpul 2 point RLS sling.
Good quality match ammo- This is probably the biggest thing in RM and is often overlooked. You need a rifle and ammo combination that shoots better than 2 MOA.

Good luck! RM is a fun class
thanks for the input I am going to try my razor 1-6.A bit low on the magnification but worth a try-max 6x
  #12209  
Old 09-20-2020, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
thanks for the input I am going to try my razor 1-6.A bit low on the magnification but worth a try-max 6x
If you have good eyes, which I don’t, you may be fine with 6x. Razor is a good scope.

I ran my scopes on 3x when shooting 37.5 and 50 while standing unsupported. On my first time at RM, I forgot to change the magnification and still did OK at 150, but struggled at 200.

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  #12210  
Old 09-20-2020, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Many would claim Matchsavers have no place on a defensive shotgun.
When doing select shell drill, I can usually get a shot off in half the time of other shooters using a Matchsaver.

Giving yourself an advantage in a gunfight is always a plus!

Attachment 938324
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  #12211  
Old 09-20-2020, 7:21 AM
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Default Pump or Semi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Anyone using a padded vest/jacket for the 4-day tactical shotgun class?

I have a nice recoil pad on my 590A1, but 4 days seems like it might tear up my shoulder by the end of the class, and am taking the 4-day defensive handgun class right after.
My Benelli M4 is easy on the shoulder. (Mesa Tactical Stock with Limbsaver recoil pad) Using a pump, it would probably be helpful.
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  #12212  
Old 09-20-2020, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan301 View Post
When doing select shell drill, I can usually get a shot off in half the time of other shooters using a Matchsaver.

Giving yourself an advantage in a gunfight is always a plus!

Attachment 938324
I'm with you, I always try to optimize my setup for whatever the task is, Frontsight classes included. Why not set you weapon up to perform the drills as quickly and accurately as possible? I'd do the same for a hunt, a defensive scenario, or for a competitive event. Of course I try to maximize my skills but if in a class, competition, or a real life defensive situation, my opponent may be more skilled than me. If my equipment can enhance my performance and help me to win, I'm all for it.

@AAShooter - What's your rationale? I see no real difference between a receiver mounted sidesaddle and a matchsaver. In fact I'd say that you'd be hard-pressed to set yourself up better than a matchsaver for a select slug. Are you saying you prefer stock, unmodified weapons for defensive purposes? Is a sidesaddle ok? If so, why not a matchsaver? Due to them being borne out of the competition shooting scene rather than defensive? Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your thought process.
  #12213  
Old 09-20-2020, 3:54 PM
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Default Precision Rifle class: Questions please.

For those who have taken Precision Rifle, do I need a sling?

Most of the time the gun is down on the ground, right?

Is the sling just to carry it to weapon inspection, in and out of the car, etc?

I read somewhere in this megathread that PR weapons inspection is separate from the usual line? No rules on trigger weight and hand loaded ammo, etc?

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  #12214  
Old 09-20-2020, 4:22 PM
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When i took it no sling was needed.No ammo inspection.Rifles were carried in cases-it was about five years ago though.
  #12215  
Old 09-20-2020, 4:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
For those who have taken Precision Rifle, do I need a sling?

Most of the time the gun is down on the ground, right?

Is the sling just to carry it to weapon inspection, in and out of the car, etc?

I read somewhere in this megathread that PR weapons inspection is separate from the usual line? No rules on trigger weight and hand loaded ammo, etc?

.
It's up to you if you need a sling. It is not required when shooting. Just know that you will be setting up and packing up many times each day as you move to different firing lines at different distances. Some people case the rifle and some sling it. If you case it, it is considered safe as the muzzle is covered. You're free to put it in the people mover truck, leave it where ever on the ground, set it on the trailer, etc. If you sling the rifle, it stays with you (always pointed in a safe direction) as soon as the line is packed up to when you get the ok to set up.

As far a weapons inspections, the last few times I took PR, they didn't inspect the rifle. It's been a couple of years since I've taken the course so it may have changed, or not.

I have a sling on mine just because it's part of the weapon system.

Hand loads are permitted because it's part of a precision rifle weapon system. You can pick up your brass.

Trigger pull weights are not regulated. A fellow class mate had a trigger measure in ounces. He let me shoot his rifle and just the thought of taking the shot lit the round off.
  #12216  
Old 09-20-2020, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
It's up to you if you need a sling. It is not required when shooting. Just know that you will be setting up and packing up many times each day as you move to different firing lines at different distances. Some people case the rifle and some sling it. If you case it, it is considered safe as the muzzle is covered. You're free to put it in the people mover truck, leave it where ever on the ground, set it on the trailer, etc. If you sling the rifle, it stays with you (always pointed in a safe direction) as soon as the line is packed up to when you get the ok to set up.

As far a weapons inspections, the last few times I took PR, they didn't inspect the rifle. It's been a couple of years since I've taken the course so it may have changed, or not.

I have a sling on mine just because it's part of the weapon system.

Hand loads are permitted because it's part of a precision rifle weapon system. You can pick up your brass.

Trigger pull weights are not regulated. A fellow class mate had a trigger measure in ounces. He let me shoot his rifle and just the thought of taking the shot lit the round off.
Thanks, guys. DRM6000, if you were to do it again today, would you rather sling a 15 lb rifle or case it around?

You have to carry around your mat, ammo, etc., right? Do you bring your own spotting scope and tripod? Kestrel?

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  #12217  
Old 09-20-2020, 6:00 PM
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Last December, I commuted between Las Vegas and Pahrump for my training. I ran into quite a bit of construction traffic on Highway 160. Is all the construction completed now?
  #12218  
Old 09-20-2020, 6:28 PM
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Last December, I commuted between Las Vegas and Pahrump for my training. I ran into quite a bit of construction traffic on Highway 160. Is all the construction completed now?
From what I can gather on their Facebook site (Pahrump Road-Commuters Report group on FB) is that they're very close to finishing up, top coating, striping, guardrails, etc.


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  #12219  
Old 09-20-2020, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks, guys. DRM6000, if you were to do it again today, would you rather sling a 15 lb rifle or case it around?

You have to carry around your mat, ammo, etc., right? Do you bring your own spotting scope and tripod? Kestrel?

.
I'll still use a case/bag. IMO, the overall convenience to not have to carry the rifle whenever I'm not on the line is worth it. Oh, if you have one of those barrel/scope covers, it's considered safe like a case in that the muzzle is covered. It's a good solution if you shoot with a bipod.

When I finish shooting before others and have to move back to the next distance, I can case up and walk back to wait. If the rifle is cased, I can set it down with others downrange. If you're slung, you'll have to either move back with the entire group or move back and keep it slung until nobody is downrange. What I normally do is move everything back to the next line, drop my stuff off and go back to the firing line. When everybody is packing themselves onto the trailer, I'm already walking down to check my target with only my data book in-hand.

If you use a mat, don't take a padded one. It's too bulky and managing it gets old really fast. I use an Eberlestock magic carpet. It's thin and rolls up small. I put it between the rifle case handles and it's easy to move. Some guys have even more compact mats. Some people use a sniper bag/mat combo and that solution seems like a good one.

As for a case, I use a Eagle Industries rifle bag.

I shoot off a pack so I can pack some ammo in it as well as water and whatever else. You won't need to pack around a lot of ammo since you can get more at lunch or at break. 60 rounds or so should be enough each morning and afternoon. I don't think I've ever used the entire 250 rounds as stated in the requirements. The curriculum has changed since Phase 3 was built so I don't know the actual round count now. (Thanks to Phase 3, there is no more PR2. That was a fun course.)

You won't need a spotting scope. A Kestrel would be nice to bring if you have one. I don't. The instructor should have one and he'll call out the environmental conditions (DA, temp.) Remember to record it to build your data. He'll call out the wind speed, so use that to learn to read what it looks and feels like. I don't like to rely on one. One thing to bring, that I don't think is mentioned, is a shemaugh or something to cover your head and scope. It is very helpful when you're shooting into the sun.

You won't need to carry your gear very far since you'll have the truck and people mover. You will handle it frequently though. Don't pack too much, just what you need. Don't have a miserable time managing stuff for four days.

Have fun!
  #12220  
Old 09-21-2020, 8:08 AM
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Thanks DRM6000, your reply saved me lots of potential headaches. I plan on flying in and had planned to bring my Pelican case for the class. Now I’ll work on getting a soft case. As I’m using my daughter’s house in Henderson as a staging area, I’ll have one shipped there.

Will they have a spotting scope for anyone to use? Or only for the Rangemaster/instructors?

Thanks for the reminder for a dope book. I would have forgotten that one.

I’m committed to use a padded mat my daughter got me for Christmas. I did ruin her yoga mat during Rifle Marksmanship.

I’ll skip a sling then. One more item to get caught on the bipod legs

Do you find the ballistics program in the Kestrel of any use? I have one in my phone, but having to enter my passcode each time I use it is a huge pain in the neck.

I’ll use my Practical Rifle belt for the dump and ammo pouches then. The magazines (Tikka T3) are too short and too wide for the mag pouches.

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  #12221  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boswell View Post
Last December, I commuted between Las Vegas and Pahrump for my training. I ran into quite a bit of construction traffic on Highway 160. Is all the construction completed now?
There's still some but worst case is you slow down to about 35 mph for a few miles. The commute from Las Vegas Blvd & Flamingo was 55-60 min every day for 4 days.
  #12222  
Old 09-21-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cjbruin View Post
There's still some but worst case is you slow down to about 35 mph for a few miles. The commute from Las Vegas Blvd & Flamingo was 55-60 min every day for 4 days.
All should be done in mid to late October:
Quote:
The State Route 160 widening project on Mountain Springs is poised to finish by mid-to-late October. The project encountered some weather-related delays where the temperature fell too low for paving activities through the mountains. At this point, the remaining work entails hydroseeding 28 acres and performing the final open grade paving (a friction course finishing surface) and highway striping.
This is the main highway between Pahrump and Las Vegas Valley.
https://www.facebook.com/NyeCounty/

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  #12223  
Old 09-21-2020, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LRG View Post
@AAShooter - What's your rationale? I see no real difference between a receiver mounted sidesaddle and a matchsaver. In fact I'd say that you'd be hard-pressed to set yourself up better than a matchsaver for a select slug. Are you saying you prefer stock, unmodified weapons for defensive purposes? Is a sidesaddle ok? If so, why not a matchsaver? Due to them being borne out of the competition shooting scene rather than defensive? Not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm genuinely interested in your thought process.
I know of no professional firearms instructor that trains in defensive shotgun that equips their shotgun with them or recommend using them. Nor do I know of any law enforcement or military organization that uses them. They certainly come in handy for the skills test. I would love for someone to point out a respected trainer that recommends them for defensive shotguns. But in the end, it is your shotgun, your choice.

Personally, I run an 870 with ghost ring sights. Tritium front sight with an integrated Surefire weapon light and 2-shot extension. I have a side saddle on one of my guns . . . still not sure about them for me.

Last edited by AAShooter; 09-21-2020 at 3:08 PM..
  #12224  
Old 09-21-2020, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
I know of no professional firearms instructor that trains in defensive shotgun that equips their shotgun with them or recommend using them.

What about Frontsight? All the shotgun instructors there recommend them.
  #12225  
Old 09-21-2020, 3:12 PM
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What about Frontsight? All the shotgun instructors there recommend them.
That has not been my experience. Is that new? How many have them on their guns? Tell me Kevin Cress recommends them on defensive shotguns.
  #12226  
Old 09-21-2020, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
That has not been my experience. Is that new? How many have them on their guns? Tell me Kevin Cress recommends them on defensive shotguns.
I don’t remember all the instructors names. I took the class in January 2019 and was the only one with a Matchsaver. I asked if it was ok and they said “sure, why not”. I came back in June 2019 and took the skill builder. By then all of the semi autos had them. They are common at FS.

What are the issues with them in a defensive scenario? Why not use them?
  #12227  
Old 09-21-2020, 3:42 PM
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I think that is a far cry from all the instructors recommend them. But again, your shotgun, your choice.
  #12228  
Old 09-21-2020, 5:14 PM
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It is interesting to me because these are training scars. Because to pass the skills test, people are putting MatchSaverz on their guns. Before, the skills test had hostage shots, so people were running out to get Vang Comp shotguns for tighter patterns. I wonder what comes next. 200 yard slug shots and we all mount bi-pods to our shotguns?

Last edited by AAShooter; 09-21-2020 at 5:18 PM..
  #12229  
Old 09-21-2020, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks DRM6000, your reply saved me lots of potential headaches. I plan on flying in and had planned to bring my Pelican case for the class. Now I’ll work on getting a soft case. As I’m using my daughter’s house in Henderson as a staging area, I’ll have one shipped there.

Will they have a spotting scope for anyone to use? Or only for the Rangemaster/instructors?

Thanks for the reminder for a dope book. I would have forgotten that one.

I’m committed to use a padded mat my daughter got me for Christmas. I did ruin her yoga mat during Rifle Marksmanship.

I’ll skip a sling then. One more item to get caught on the bipod legs

Do you find the ballistics program in the Kestrel of any use? I have one in my phone, but having to enter my passcode each time I use it is a huge pain in the neck.

I’ll use my Practical Rifle belt for the dump and ammo pouches then. The magazines (Tikka T3) are too short and too wide for the mag pouches.

.
You really don't need a spotting scope. I've never seen anybody use one. Some people carry binos though (I did for finding targets from Sniper's Point and from other areas on the property which no student can probably do anymore.) You will usually shoot three shots, go to the target, plot your hits in your data book, take notes or whatever and tape. Repeat two more times for a total of three groups per distance. On the skills test, don't try look for your hits. If you have a miss, you might defeat yourself mentally. Remember, for DG, you can only miss one shot, IIRC. (It's a 50 point test. Standard school points deductions: -3 in the grey outside the thoracic for head box and -5 for a complete miss or in the white. -3 or -5 is still 90%+, but this is precision rifle. If you get -5 because of one in the white or one complete miss, you cannot DG. It's precision rifle, remember? Get your round on target.) I seem to be going off on a tangent...

I've never tried the Kestrel ballistics program. If you you have a ballistics app, by all means use it. The real data you gather can fine tune the data in the app. It's so much easier to find the solution. Instead of relying on the app for the solution, I try to come up with it on my own and use the app to check my work and then shoot to confirm. Apps are nice, but you still need to learn to read the wind. I haven't used an app where I can input the wind coming from three different directions at varying speeds between me and the target.

Can you disable the passcode on the phone for the duration of each day's class?

The course is great deal of fun and requires thinking and problem solving. The PR1, and especially PR2, courses are some of my favorites.
  #12230  
Old 09-21-2020, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
You really don't need a spotting scope. I've never seen anybody use one. Some people carry binos though (I did for finding targets from Sniper's Point and from other areas on the property which no student can probably do anymore.) You will usually shoot three shots, go to the target, plot your hits in your data book, take notes or whatever and tape. Repeat two more times for a total of three groups per distance. On the skills test, don't try look for your hits. If you have a miss, you might defeat yourself mentally. Remember, for DG, you can only miss one shot, IIRC. (It's a 50 point test. Standard school points deductions: -3 in the grey outside the thoracic for head box and -5 for a complete miss or in the white. -3 or -5 is still 90%+, but this is precision rifle. If you get -5 because of one in the white or one complete miss, you cannot DG. It's precision rifle, remember? Get your round on target.) I seem to be going off on a tangent...

I've never tried the Kestrel ballistics program. If you you have a ballistics app, by all means use it. The real data you gather can fine tune the data in the app. It's so much easier to find the solution. Instead of relying on the app for the solution, I try to come up with it on my own and use the app to check my work and then shoot to confirm. Apps are nice, but you still need to learn to read the wind. I haven't used an app where I can input the wind coming from three different directions at varying speeds between me and the target.

Can you disable the passcode on the phone for the duration of each day's class?

The course is great deal of fun and requires thinking and problem solving. The PR1, and especially PR2, courses are some of my favorites.
Do they still use the standard Front Sight target with the head box and chest cavity like we do in Handgun classes? I thought PR uses a unique target of it's own?

Wow, one miss or you're out of DG. But then if you do DG PR, what class beyond PR that do you get to take? How many days were PR1 and PR2? Was Precision Rifle Fundamentals a prerequisite class back then?

OK, no spotting scope nor tripod. Good, two less items to pack. Might as well as use the rifle scope itself to look at the target, right?

I probably can disable the password on my phone. I'm no teenager who knows these darn phones inside and out. I better ask my daughter LOL . My ballistics app is Ballistics Advantage. As far as I can tell, it only allows for one wind setting, but I've only used it up to 400 yd. Three different wind settings? I can barely read the wind during Rifle Marksmanship at a third or half the distance.

.
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  #12231  
Old 09-21-2020, 10:52 PM
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Do they still use the standard Front Sight target with the head box and chest cavity like we do in Handgun classes? I thought PR uses a unique target of it's own?

Wow, one miss or you're out of DG. But then if you do DG PR, what class beyond PR that do you get to take? How many days were PR1 and PR2? Was Precision Rifle Fundamentals a prerequisite class back then?

OK, no spotting scope nor tripod. Good, two less items to pack. Might as well as use the rifle scope itself to look at the target, right?

I probably can disable the password on my phone. I'm no teenager who knows these darn phones inside and out. I better ask my daughter LOL . My ballistics app is Ballistics Advantage. As far as I can tell, it only allows for one wind setting, but I've only used it up to 400 yd. Three different wind settings? I can barely read the wind during Rifle Marksmanship at a third or half the distance.

.
The target is the standard school target. That headbox seems small at distance, but it's not. At the distance you're required to shoot it at, it's like 1moa. (Side story: We were at 500 yards and we're waiting on some slower shooters. I felt like messing around and I said to the guy next to me "let's see if I can get a headshot." He says "yeah right". I took the shot. I center punched the 3x3.5 headbox. We go back to 500 and I tried again. The shot landed where a right eye would be. I felt pretty good.)

I think I read that there is another target to test and filter students out now. You need to pass to progress the to next day. I'm really not sure about that one.

As for misses, if you're one -3 in the grey (assuming it's not in the body when it should be in the head and vice versa), you DG.

If you DG PR1, there is no where else to go now. In PR2, we shot from all over the property including from the rappelling tower. It can't be done now since we used to shoot towards, into and over where Phase 3 ranges and the road leading to it are. We shot from behind the admin buildings and outside of Phase 2 as well. I attended the last class. (side story: We did a private PR class and we were shooting from Sniper's Point. We were shooting the targets on the PR range. The brown room ranged at 12xx yards at the first target was at 14xx yards. The guy I was shooting with could not miss the 14xx yard target with a .308 win. 16" rifle. Incredible. Stuff nobody will ever get to do again at FS.)

PR1 and PR2 were 4D classes. PR fundamentals was not part of the program at the time. DG in Practical Rifle was your ticket into PR1. I haven't taken fundamentals, but I imagine that stuff was covered on Day 1 of the old PR curriculum.

About the three wind directions thing: sometimes if you read the mirage and pan back and fourth to the target, you'll see the wind go from left to right up close, right to left midway and left to right at the target. And the speed will vary. Sometimes it's two directions. Sometimes I can figure out the solution, sometimes I can't. Fun stuff.

I really need to take PR in it's current form. I wonder if I still have what it takes.

I know I'm kinda wordy, but those were some of my favorite classes and I can remember a lot of it.

Last edited by DRM6000; 09-21-2020 at 10:54 PM..
  #12232  
Old 09-22-2020, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
The target is the standard school target. That headbox seems small at distance, but it's not. At the distance you're required to shoot it at, it's like 1moa. (Side story: We were at 500 yards and we're waiting on some slower shooters. I felt like messing around and I said to the guy next to me "let's see if I can get a headshot." He says "yeah right". I took the shot. I center punched the 3x3.5 headbox. We go back to 500 and I tried again. The shot landed where a right eye would be. I felt pretty good.)

I think I read that there is another target to test and filter students out now. You need to pass to progress the to next day. I'm really not sure about that one.

As for misses, if you're one -3 in the grey (assuming it's not in the body when it should be in the head and vice versa), you DG.

If you DG PR1, there is no where else to go now. In PR2, we shot from all over the property including from the rappelling tower. It can't be done now since we used to shoot towards, into and over where Phase 3 ranges and the road leading to it are. We shot from behind the admin buildings and outside of Phase 2 as well. I attended the last class. (side story: We did a private PR class and we were shooting from Sniper's Point. We were shooting the targets on the PR range. The brown room ranged at 12xx yards at the first target was at 14xx yards. The guy I was shooting with could not miss the 14xx yard target with a .308 win. 16" rifle. Incredible. Stuff nobody will ever get to do again at FS.)

PR1 and PR2 were 4D classes. PR fundamentals was not part of the program at the time. DG in Practical Rifle was your ticket into PR1. I haven't taken fundamentals, but I imagine that stuff was covered on Day 1 of the old PR curriculum.

About the three wind directions thing: sometimes if you read the mirage and pan back and fourth to the target, you'll see the wind go from left to right up close, right to left midway and left to right at the target. And the speed will vary. Sometimes it's two directions. Sometimes I can figure out the solution, sometimes I can't. Fun stuff.

I really need to take PR in it's current form. I wonder if I still have what it takes.

I know I'm kinda wordy, but those were some of my favorite classes and I can remember a lot of it.
Wow, looks like I really missed out on PR2. Oh well, no guarantee I’d DG the current PR class anyway LOL. When we DG Precision is when we branch out from Front Sight, right?

The wind reading issue really perplexes me. Doesn’t the proportion of the distance in which a particular wind force prevails affect the bullet flight? And how to account for wind shifts by the time you read the wind, figure out a solution, aim and actually fire? I know, I know, newb questions

Yes, I keep hearing about that mid-class test. Pass or go to remedial class. Headshots at 800? I can barely hit it at 7.5

.
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  #12233  
Old 09-22-2020, 7:09 AM
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It is interesting to me because these are training scars.
I hear ya on training scars or crutches. But remember Matchsavers do not replace the need to train port loading from side-saddle or belt holders. You still have to end up with a loaded gun on port load drills. Remember these are “shoot 2 load 2”.

On slug select drills it does give you some extra time to aim, but time is generally not a big factor in this drill.

They are an aid, not a replacement for training. In the last class I took, about the same number DG’d with pump guns having no MS as did semi’s running with MS. I did not DG my class in January because my hands got so cold the MS didn’t help. Training is still number one.
  #12234  
Old 09-22-2020, 11:11 AM
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That has not been my experience. Is that new? How many have them on their guns? Tell me Kevin Cress recommends them on defensive shotguns.
Cress did not mention them during the 2-day. I don't think anyone in the class had one. Seems like he wouldn't be a fan.
  #12235  
Old 09-22-2020, 12:13 PM
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Cress did not mention them during the 2-day. I don't think anyone in the class had one. Seems like he wouldn't be a fan.
The guy running the Benelli to my left had a match saver. But he was having so much trouble with his shotgun, not sure it helped. When the gun ran, he sure was fast on the second shot. :-)

Last edited by AR15fan; 09-22-2020 at 3:03 PM..
  #12236  
Old 09-22-2020, 12:25 PM
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The guy running the Benelli to my left had a match saver. But he was having so much trouble with his shotgun, not sure it helped. When the fun ran, he sure was fast on the second shot. :-)
Yep, they can be quick.
  #12237  
Old 09-22-2020, 2:54 PM
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The guy running the Benelli to my left had a match saver. But he was having so much trouble with his shotgun, not sure it helped. When the fun ran, he sure was fast on the second shot. :-)
Ah. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to him. I think you meant, when the "gun" ran, right? I don't recall him having issues.
  #12238  
Old 09-22-2020, 2:58 PM
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Ah. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to him.
So there WAS a Matchsaver in your class?
  #12239  
Old 09-22-2020, 3:03 PM
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Ah. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to him. I think you meant, when the "gun" ran, right? I don't recall him having issues.
Yes, you didn’t let me finish. The GUN. :-)
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Old 09-22-2020, 4:38 PM
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So there WAS a Matchsaver in your class?
So it seems. Though Cress never commented about using them. He doesn't have one on his gun.
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