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  #1  
Old 04-03-2020, 10:46 AM
Burble74 Burble74 is offline
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Default Is The Mark of the Beast from Revelation upon us?

Apparently Bill Gates is now pushing for a “digital certificate” ,or mark, to brand people who’ve gotten the corona vaccine. Without it, one will not be allowed to partake in business. Sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast to me.



Any thoughts?

https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestne...is-vaccinated/

Revelation no matter which way it is sliced

https://biblehub.com/revelation/13-17.htm

Last edited by Burble74; 04-03-2020 at 11:01 AM..
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2020, 8:56 AM
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Revelation was about the time it was written in, not about today. All the boogey men in Revelation were alive in the first century and are long since dead.
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Old 04-06-2020, 9:08 AM
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Based on what you shared them maybe this virus is the great deception ?
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Old 04-06-2020, 1:48 PM
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No on all accounts.
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Old 04-06-2020, 1:53 PM
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CVShooter, go back an read Revelations. Wait a lil longer, see how WE are in the end of times . Too bad we can’t take our guns with us
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Old 04-06-2020, 1:53 PM
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Without this digital certificate tattoo you will be deny access to schools, stores, public transportation etc.

Its the norm in China where you need a QR code proving you have been vaccinated to travel and just move about. Its crazy.

The liberal left are pushing hard for this.
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Old 04-06-2020, 2:11 PM
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God only knows my man...
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Old 04-06-2020, 2:37 PM
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Matthew 24:32-34 New International Version (NIV)

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[a] is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
The fig tree represents Israel. In 1948, Israel sprouted back to life. (See Ezekiel’s prophecy of the dry bones coming back to life.) Israel sprouted and grew. It was the greatest fulfillment of prophecy in 2,000 years. We are that generation.
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Old 04-06-2020, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Revelation was about the time it was written in, not about today. All the boogey men in Revelation were alive in the first century and are long since dead.

No offense intended, but the Word is eternal. I understand that seems overboard, but sometimes the truth is so important.
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Old 04-06-2020, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Burble74 View Post
Apparently Bill Gates is now pushing for...



COULDN'T care less. He can become Secretary of the Treasury if he wants it bad enough.
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  #11  
Old 04-07-2020, 8:01 AM
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No offense intended, but the Word is eternal. I understand that seems overboard, but sometimes the truth is so important.
The Word (Logos) is eternal in orthodox Christianity but not the words (text). The Logos is Christ, according to John. The Bible, as we know it, wasn't even compiled and agreed upon for a couple hundred years after John died. The Word becoming flesh isn't the Bible coming to life in the form of Jesus. That would make the holy trinity into a quaternary being (4-in-one).

If you don't know the difference between the Logos and the text, read up on Gnosticism and the gnostic pantheon. John 1 addresses gnostic interpretations of the gospel and is trying to dispel those ideas from Christianity (while also making some concessions -- really interesting stuff). If you know nothing of Gnosticism, you cannot understand John or much of the first couple centuries of Christianity for that matter. This was THE intellectual and theological debate of its day. And it wasn't just in Christianity but also in Judaism and Hellenistic religions as well. Call it a theological corona virus of its time & place, so to speak.

And if you don't know the historical context of Revelation, you cannot understand what John is doing in Revelation. There's way more going on there than a simple reading of the text itself will show you.

Don't forget the 3 most important rules of Biblical interpretation:

1. Context
2. Context
3. Context
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Old 04-07-2020, 8:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brownfeathermedic View Post
CVShooter, go back an read Revelations. Wait a lil longer, see how WE are in the end of times . Too bad we can’t take our guns with us
Every generation thought they were in the "last days." Personally, I think they all hoped that they were. Here we are, 2k years later...

I figure it's like how we all think we're above average drivers or better than average shooters.

"This generation shall not pass..." And they all passed. A very long time ago.
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Old 04-07-2020, 8:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Every generation thought they were in the "last days." Personally, I think they all hoped that they were. Here we are, 2k years later...

I figure it's like how we all think we're above average drivers or better than average shooters.

"This generation shall not pass..." And they all passed. A very long time ago.
Except for the major fulfillment of prophecy that happened in 1948. It is a major marker on the historical timeline.
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:58 AM
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Except for the major fulfillment of prophecy that happened in 1948. It is a major marker on the historical timeline.
Right... You mean that time when a bunch of atheists and agnostics with Jewish ancestry set up a secular, communist state in Palestine because they were fed up with waiting for God's Messiah and figured, "F*&% this! We're doing it ourselves!" The event that Orthodox Jews still don't recognize as a fulfillment of anything? That event?

Orthodox Judaism and its predecessors is looking forward to a theocratic reign brought in by a human being chosen by YHWH to restore the Davidic monarchy. Theodore Herzel, the major leader of the modern Zionist movement was no such man. Neither was David Ben Gurion, their first Prime Minister. Herzel was atheist. Ben Gurion was agnostic. They all set up a democracy, not a theocracy. And the state has been, from day 1, secular. They are WAY more secular than we are. Until you spend some time there, you'll never really get it. It's easy to fantasize about what it is from a distance. It's another ball of wax to live there -- even just for a short while.

So how about that prophecy? John was looking forward to an end of persecution in his time. Times were tough & he was exiled, as you probably know. Christianity, largely just another Jewish sect at the time, was having a hard time. The Jewish leadership rejected them & wanted to hunt them down. The Roman empire thought they were just another treasonous band of zealots & were eager to stamp them out. It's easy to give up hope and John was trying to give them hope by showing them that there were spiritual events happening that were going to ultimately make their struggle worthwhile. Jesus's would return any day and prove them all right. He borrowed from Daniel (pseudo-Daniel) and even from Canaanite mythology (Jesus vs Satan = Ba'al vs Yam). It's a message of hope meant to show how events today would play out if they just hung on a little longer.

You can find similar messages and apocalyptic styles in the Bible itself (Daniel, Zechariah) where the events described are CURRENT events, not really future events. It's even here in the Americas. Read BLACK ELK SPEAKS. I suspect that Black Elk was influenced by Christianity to a large degree, as was Wavoka, the founder of Ghost Dance religion. But I don't know that. Similar situations prompt similar messages of hope mixed with apocalyptic stories. Desperate people need something to hold on to. And when you're face-to-face with the extinction of all that you hold dear, messages like theirs can really help rally the troops.
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Right... You mean that time when a bunch of atheists and agnostics with Jewish ancestry set up a secular, communist state in Palestine because they were fed up with waiting for God's Messiah and figured, "F*&% this! We're doing it ourselves!" The event that Orthodox Jews still don't recognize as a fulfillment of anything? That event?

Orthodox Judaism and its predecessors is looking forward to a theocratic reign brought in by a human being chosen by YHWH to restore the Davidic monarchy. Theodore Herzel, the major leader of the modern Zionist movement was no such man. Neither was David Ben Gurion, their first Prime Minister. Herzel was atheist. Ben Gurion was agnostic. They all set up a democracy, not a theocracy. And the state has been, from day 1, secular. They are WAY more secular than we are. Until you spend some time there, you'll never really get it. It's easy to fantasize about what it is from a distance. It's another ball of wax to live there -- even just for a short while.

So how about that prophecy? John was looking forward to an end of persecution in his time. Times were tough & he was exiled, as you probably know. Christianity, largely just another Jewish sect at the time, was having a hard time. The Jewish leadership rejected them & wanted to hunt them down. The Roman empire thought they were just another treasonous band of zealots & were eager to stamp them out. It's easy to give up hope and John was trying to give them hope by showing them that there were spiritual events happening that were going to ultimately make their struggle worthwhile. Jesus's would return any day and prove them all right. He borrowed from Daniel (pseudo-Daniel) and even from Canaanite mythology (Jesus vs Satan = Ba'al vs Yam). It's a message of hope meant to show how events today would play out if they just hung on a little longer.

You can find similar messages and apocalyptic styles in the Bible itself (Daniel, Zechariah) where the events described are CURRENT events, not really future events. It's even here in the Americas. Read BLACK ELK SPEAKS. I suspect that Black Elk was influenced by Christianity to a large degree, as was Wavoka, the founder of Ghost Dance religion. But I don't know that. Similar situations prompt similar messages of hope mixed with apocalyptic stories. Desperate people need something to hold on to. And when you're face-to-face with the extinction of all that you hold dear, messages like theirs can really help rally the troops.
Friend, are you speaking as an Orthodox Jew? Because Orthodox Jews are still looking for Elijah to come before Messiah. But if you had read the Bible, you would know that Jesus addressed that. The Scriptures are the authority, not Black a Elk Speaks or any other secular writing, not you, not I. I’m citing what the Bible says about the subject.

What human in history was destroyed and came back to life again?

What nation in history was destroyed and came back to life again?

Check out Ezekiel 37. I’ve copied a portion of it for you below.

Quote:
11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.”
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Friend, are you speaking as an Orthodox Jew? Because Orthodox Jews are still looking for Elijah to come before Messiah. But if you had read the Bible, you would know that Jesus addressed that. The Scriptures are the authority, not Black a Elk Speaks or any other secular writing, not you, not I. I’m citing what the Bible says about the subject.

What human in history was destroyed and came back to life again?

What nation in history was destroyed and came back to life again?

Check out Ezekiel 37. I’ve copied a portion of it for you below.
Haha! No. I'm not orthodox anything, let alone an Orthodox Jew. It's way too weird a cult for my irreverent tastes. Thankfully, Judaism isn't evangelistic. Not only do I respect that they respect others but I think it would be a really tough sell anyway.

What human? Well, lots. Allegedly. Christians weren't the first to come up with that story. That story is old and almost universal. The only thing different is the characters and some of the detail. I know you think that the Jesus story is unique and that he defied the laws of both biology and physics. I kindly disagree. Forgive me if I remain skeptical on that point.

What nation? Technically, none. The modern state of Israel has almost nothing to do with the Davidic monarchy of old. Okay, so it's an ethnically Jewish state. So what? Do we think that Italy is the same today as the Roman empire just because it's made up of Italians? That the Ming Dynasty of China lives because China is full of Chinese people? Nations rise and nations fall. The names change, the style changes but the people endure. There were always Jews living in Palestine, even before 1948. An outside contingent of exiled Jews used the postwar period as an opportunity to re-create a Jewish state. We helped them. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Not all Jews were in favor of it. Some still aren't. But being ethnically Jewish is not the same as being religiously Jewish. If the God of the Torah were to weigh in, as he supposedly did in the minor prophets, there would be no room in "His" land for the modern state. The fact that the modern state of Israel doesn't really care what God says about it is proof enough that it is not the fulfillment of any prophecy in my book. Far from being critical of it, I actually respect it all the more for their secular stance & pragmatic "do it anyway" kind of mindset. I think we can learn a lot from it.

But this is all way off topic. If you want to find out what John was talking about with the "Mark of the Beast," you'd be better off looking for what it may have been back then instead of trying to read tea leaves and forecasting the future. Humans, after all, are terrible predictors of the future.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:33 PM
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Revelation was about the time it was written in, not about today. All the boogey men in Revelation were alive in the first century and are long since dead.

Sorry man, but you’re wrong. The book of Revelation is prophetic, it tells of a time to come. Jesus loves you and He died for your sins. I hope you come to know His forgiveness like I have. Take care.
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Old 04-08-2020, 12:47 PM
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CV Shooter is pretty much right on with his reference to the modern state of Israel. Theodore Herzl and the British Empire started working on this not long after WW1. With the end of the Nazi Holocaust, and Jews desperately needing somewhere to go, Palestine was the answer. It was the ancient land of the Israelites, and Jerusalem is the capital. Some wanted the Jews to go to Madagascar off the coast of East Africa believe it or not. Modern Israel is born of the United Nations. It is a place of refuge for Jews throughout the world. However, belief in God, gods, messiahs, etc. are not a requirement to be an Israeli. Israel is a very secular country. Abortion, legal, gays in the military, ok, women drafted, why not, abortion, too? Some of the biggest problems facing Israel is the divide between the secular Israeli, and the Orthodox living there. You can see incidents of Orthodox spitting on women of buses if they don't sit in the "women only" area. Jews are very diverse. Many Sephardic Jews, or Middle Eastern Jews, are closer to the Arabs in customs than to Westerners. The Askenazi Jew, or European Jew, very different since they lived in Europe for a very long time.

Last edited by louie; 04-08-2020 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 04-08-2020, 1:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
The Word (Logos) is eternal in orthodox Christianity but not the words (text). The Logos is Christ, according to John. The Bible, as we know it, wasn't even compiled and agreed upon for a couple hundred years after John died. The Word becoming flesh isn't the Bible coming to life in the form of Jesus. That would make the holy trinity into a quaternary being (4-in-one).

If you don't know the difference between the Logos and the text, read up on Gnosticism and the gnostic pantheon. John 1 addresses gnostic interpretations of the gospel and is trying to dispel those ideas from Christianity (while also making some concessions -- really interesting stuff). If you know nothing of Gnosticism, you cannot understand John or much of the first couple centuries of Christianity for that matter. This was THE intellectual and theological debate of its day. And it wasn't just in Christianity but also in Judaism and Hellenistic religions as well. Call it a theological corona virus of its time & place, so to speak.

And if you don't know the historical context of Revelation, you cannot understand what John is doing in Revelation. There's way more going on there than a simple reading of the text itself will show you.

Don't forget the 3 most important rules of Biblical interpretation:

1. Context
2. Context
3. Context

I don't see your connection with Gnosticism. One of the problems with tying this to gnostics is that gnostics is a little-defined belief system that has a number of strains with little doctrinal clarity. Even Luther has been called a gnostic. I get that material is "bad" and spiritual is "good" and the idea of "enlightenment" (an extreme oversimplification) but that doesn't have a lot to do with the nature of the Word of God. Personally, my belief is that the Word of God is eternally valid because God never changes and for the same reason it is 100% reliable ... though you or I might not understand at a given point in time. I certainly agree, however, in the concept of the Trinity.
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Old 04-08-2020, 1:37 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM6MbUFzrro

The elites and democrats want it very bad and will use any deception or crisis to its advantage

I’ll leave it hear.
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Old 04-09-2020, 5:50 AM
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Default The Fig Tree Prophecy

Israel – A fulfillment of Prophecy

The fig tree is used throughout the OT to represent when Israel is in their land and right with the Lord. The olive tree is also used of Israel - but is used in a spiritual sense.

I personally believe that many of Jesus' statements are references to the OT, Talmud and Temple that His Jewish listeners knew and were familiar with.

For example John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." Did you know that the gates leading into the temple were called “the way” (eastern gate) “the truth” (Nicantor gate) and “the life” (door into Holy Place)?

Thus, we know that 1948 and 1967 are significant prophetical dates. I believe in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus mentions the times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:20-24). Immediately after, He says to learn of the parable of the fig tree. In the ears of His listeners, they would have tied these two things together. They knew and understood that when "every man sits under his own fig tree" was speaking of the future Kingdom of the Messiah.

This is not an either/or interpretation. It is both/and. The fig tree budding tells us what season we are in. It also tells us that when they Jews are again living in Israel - we will know that the times are near.

If the fig tree parable is meaning the signs, then we truly cannot place ourselves with any accuracy on a time line. If the fig tree in the parable stands for Israel then we can put ourselves within a certain part of the line.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. -- Matthew 24:32-33 (see also Luke 21:29-33 and Mark 13:28-30)

There is two different ideas about this parable. The first is that in several places in the bible the 'fig tree' is a symbol of the Jewish Nation. As such this passage indicates that with the sprouting of leaves (rebirth), we know that summer is nigh.

The same thought could be used for the verse in Matthew 21 when Jesus curses a fig tree when he is nearing his crucifixion.

Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. -- Matthew 21:19

Could this be symbolism of Israel denouncing the messiah and the result of such denial? I can't say. But if it isn't meant to be such, it's still an interesting thought!

This ‘fig-tree parallelism’ can be carried over to recent history: “It's branch become tender and put forth leaves.“ Miraculously, this tiny nation of Israel is quite prosperous today and they are recorded to have the 3rd largest military in the world. And despite their enemies’ best efforts they don't appear to be 'wilting' any time soon.

I want to pause here for a moment. Like a lot of things with the study of prophecy, we should make sure to look at all possibilities within a passage. As such, allow me to present the following:

The other idea about Matthew 24:32-33 is simply that this passage states that when 'all these things' - meaning all of these signs (that we haven't gotten to yet in this study, including the rebirth of Israel) - signify the beginning of the end.

The main reason for this belief is that the Luke passage mentions the fig tree and all trees.

The other reason here is that Christ describes many things, some of which we know from the book of Revelation occur in the Tribulation. With this in mind, it may indeed be that Christ was talking about THAT generation within the Tribulation. I’ll let you make up you own mind on this issue, but regardless with all we have been studying, it is an exciting prospect in either case.

Before we move on, let’s take a moment to look at the word generation within those passages.

In the words from Matthew, " Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. "

Which Generation?

The one that sees these signs.

Isn't that Generation Alive today?

Yes, I believe it is.

How long is a Generation?

GOOD QUESTION!

Is it 50 years? 100 years? Can we define it? Not sure... But I will offer the following obscure Psalm 90 written by Moses. In which Moses writes:

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten (70); and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years (80), yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath." -- Psalms 90:10-11


Now how is that for curious?

The question now to ask is when did this prophetic countdown begin?

Did it begin with the birth of the Nation in 1948 or the regaining of Jerusalem in 1967? Or is it some other sign Christ mentions prior to his announcement of the final Generation in these passages?

That question I cannot answer, and perhaps we are not supposed to know. All we do know is that we are warned to 'Watch'.

”Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” – Matthew 24:42

If it was just these passages to consider with deciding if these are the end times, we would be left with much speculation. As there could be arguments for either side. However, lucky for us, God gives us other signs and warnings to serve as signs to the final generation. God wants us to know and recognize the generation. As mentioned above and several times throughout the New Testament, God wants us to Watch and be ready and lucky for us, he told us in several other passages, what to watch for.

Also considered that the fig tree prophecy could be related to these two verses:

When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. (Hosea 9:10)

Then the word of the LORD came to me: “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land.’” (Jer. 24:4-6)

Could this be about the return of good figs back to the holy land, which happened in 1948?

Quote:
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
G3850
parabole¯
Thayer Definition:
2c) a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life, by which either the duties of men or the things of God, particularly the nature and history of God's kingdom are figuratively portrayed.

Jesus could have said "notice the fig tree, when you see leaves..." He didn't. He said, "Now learn the parable of the fig tree..." This tells me there is more to it than just noticing that all these events point to something about to happen. I believe He used the fig tree on purpose.

Notice that Thayer says of parables that they are often used to explain the kingdom. Every time you see the word kingdom, you can translate that - Jesus Christ's literal reign on earth. The context of Matt 24 is the end times and Jesus is explaining what to look for, as a general landmark so we would know what generation it would be.

So why did Jesus use the fig tree as His example? Remember - when on earth Jesus was a Jewish rabbi and would have used examples well known to Jewish people. A brief survey of the tanakh (Old Testament) shows that when the fig tree is used as a symbol it is in reference to the Jews being in possession of their land. When the fig tree is blooming - the Jews are in Israel and all is right with the world.

Quote:
Jdg 9:10 And the trees said to the fig tree, You come and reign over us.
Here, Israel wanted a king like all the other nations. They were finding it too hard to maintain a loose confederacy and raising up a judge every time they were attacked.

Quote:
1Ki 4:25 And Judah and Israel lived safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beer-sheba, all the days of Solomon.
Quote:
Son 2:13 the fig tree puts forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, My love, My beautiful one, and come away.
Interesting verse. Speaking of the bride and groom going away when the fig tree blooms. I think it's prophetic.

Quote:
Joe 1:6 For a nation has come up on My land, strong and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he has the jaw teeth of a lioness.
Joe 1:7 He has laid My vine waste and splintered My fig tree. He has stripped it and cast it away; its branches grow white.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice. For Jehovah will do great things.
Joe 2:22 Do not be afraid, beasts of the field; for the pastures of the wilderness grow green; for the tree bears its fruit, and the fig tree and the vine yield their strength.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, sons of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God. For He has given you the former rain according to righteousness, and He will cause the rain to come down for you, the former rain and the latter rain in the first month.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths; for the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
When the fig tree droops - Israel has been bad - God takes them out of the Land. When the fig tree blooms, Israel is forgiven and in the Land.

Quote:
Mic 4:3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, And they shall not still learn war.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit each one under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be no trembling; for the mouth of Jehovah of Hosts has spoken,
Israel will be in the Land during the reign of the Messiah.

Quote:
Zec 3:9 For behold! I will bring forth My Servant the Branch. For behold the stone that I have set before Joshua: On one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its engraving, says Jehovah of Hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, says Jehovah of Hosts, you shall call, each man to his neighbor, to sit under the vine and under the fig tree.
When Messiah appears, He will remove iniquity of the land in one day. Then the Jews will dwell in their Land securely.

CONCLUSION

I think it is fairly safe and doctrinally sound to say that the parable of the fig tree that Jesus used in Matt 24 has to do with the Jews dwelling safely in Ha'Eretz (the Land). This is the landmark sign He wanted us to note - when you see Israel again as a nation (1948) - this is the generation that will see all these things come to pass. This doesn't allow us to pinpoint a day or hour - no man knows that - but it does give us a ballpark idea of when to start putting all the clues together. Let us lift up our heads for our redemption draweth nigh!
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Old 04-09-2020, 6:13 AM
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Revelation was about the time it was written in, not about today. All the boogey men in Revelation were alive in the first century and are long since dead.
Where did you get your understanding? Have you even read it?
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Old 04-09-2020, 6:34 AM
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very interesting discussion!
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Old 04-09-2020, 8:34 AM
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To CV Shooter, you sound like a " PRETERIST " , do you consider yourself to be one ? Usually a PRETERIST sees ALL of the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 135 AD and Matthew ch 24, Luke ch 21, and Mark ch 11 fulfilled in 70 AD. Do you fit into this view/category ? Nor ragging on you, just asking.

Psalm 1
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Old 04-09-2020, 8:40 AM
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I don't see your connection with Gnosticism. One of the problems with tying this to gnostics is that gnostics is a little-defined belief system that has a number of strains with little doctrinal clarity. Even Luther has been called a gnostic. I get that material is "bad" and spiritual is "good" and the idea of "enlightenment" (an extreme oversimplification) but that doesn't have a lot to do with the nature of the Word of God. Personally, my belief is that the Word of God is eternally valid because God never changes and for the same reason it is 100% reliable ... though you or I might not understand at a given point in time. I certainly agree, however, in the concept of the Trinity.
John 1 is all about addressing the Gnostic thread within budding Christianity. Here's a wiki on the basics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(...sm)#Valentinus

Reread John 1 but rather than interpreting "Logos" as "Word," substitute the original "Logos" as you read:

"In the beginning (En arche) was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.... Then the Logos became flesh and lived among us."

This is John saying that the Logos of Gnosticism was, in fact, Jesus, begotten (emanated from) God who became flesh in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. Gnostics, especially the Docetic branch of Gnosticism, hated the physical world. The Docetic gospels had Jesus only appearing on earth since he could not be contaminated by actual flesh. The grass wouldn't even bend under his feet as he walked. John is putting that one to rest. To him, the Logos didn't just appear on earth. It became flesh and lived as a human. Unlike Paul, John actually knew Jesus personally during his life on earth. So he is fit to give this testimony.

En arche, in Greek, translated as "In the beginning" could also be a reference to the "God" of the Gnostic pantheon, Arche, Monad, Proarche, etc. This divinity is impersonal but is the original source of everything. It's a very Platonic diety -- perfect in all ways including no needs or want of worship. It doesn't create but simply emanates other divinities, which later give birth to the earth and humanity.

Truly, some things are best understood without translation. Once we move into English, people substitute in English meanings of Beginning, Word, etc. which aren't necessarily what the author intended. Again, 1. Context, 2. Context, 3. Context.

Gnosticism was taking over Christianity, reinterpreting it as a Hellenistic & Platonic religion instead of a Jewish religion. John was definitely among the more dualistic gospel writers (dualism is not traditional Judaism) but he didn't go as far as the Gnostics. Gnosticism was a heresy he was not ready to accept. So he wrote his own account of Jesus's life (The Gospel of John).

By the time he's writing Revelation, he's giving people hope within his view of good vs evil, light vs darkness, Jesus vs Satan. It's his own perspective. And it's an effective one during times of heavy persecution. It was intended to give people hope by offering a window into the spiritual realities that are shaping events in the physical world right now (Now = John's time). By uncovering these realities, the author hopes to offer hope and strength to endure persecution and difficulty today.

There are a number of ways to interpret the mark of the beast. Personally, I lean toward the view that it was probably Nero or Domitian. Not being able to buy or sell without the mark seems to fit perfectly with the dominance of Rome's economic system, which required using their coinage. Many Jews thought that using Roman coins was a form of idolatry or was simply a concession of Rome's authority. Remember the money changers in the temple? Remember the discussion of rendering to Caesar what is Caesar? Context.

Thinking that the mark of the best or Revelation in general is somehow about us today is, in my mind, a very self-centered view of history and religion. It's not about us. It's about them. Learn about them and you'll know what they were saying and why. There can be parallels and applications from there but it always starts with them, not us. I see it the same way I see some idiotic questions, such as, "Have you even read the Bible?" It's a comment (not a question) that says little about me and a ton about the author.

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Old 04-09-2020, 8:47 AM
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To CV Shooter, you sound like a " PRETERIST " , do you consider yourself to be one ? Usually a PRETERIST sees ALL of the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 135 AD and Matthew ch 24, Luke ch 21, and Mark ch 11 fulfilled in 70 AD. Do you fit into this view/category ? Nor ragging on you, just asking.

Psalm 1
I'd lean that direction. But remember, I'm not a Christian. And I don't fall in line with any particular camp. Most interpretation camps have good ideas but end up taking things too far. I'm very comfortable with contradiction, paradox and even changing my mind. You can't do that when your academic reputation is on the line. I have no loyalties to intellectual ideas -- it's just fun mental exercise.

I see John as a message of hope for people of its day. The rest is just detail.
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Old 04-09-2020, 9:30 AM
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Where did you get your understanding? Have you even read it?
I know right? Maybe he read part of it and does not realize that the events described towards the end of Revelation mean the end of the world as we know it, and the establishment of a new Heaven and Earth that are eternal.

You know, I saw a show on the History Channel several years ago, that took this premise towards Revelation. Made it all analogy to the current persecution under the Emperor Domitian (who's name I may have misspelled but whatever) and if you never read the actual letter itself... well then the History Channel's spin on it would seem legit. I think it was narrated by the same actor who played Benjamin Sisko on Deep Space 9
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Old 04-09-2020, 10:00 AM
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The fig tree represents Israel. In 1948, Israel sprouted back to life. (See Ezekiel’s prophecy of the dry bones coming back to life.) Israel sprouted and grew. It was the greatest fulfillment of prophecy in 2,000 years. We are that generation.



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Old 04-09-2020, 10:18 AM
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Kokopelli is CORRECT. Louie, Israel IS the product not of the UN, but from the proclamation made on radio that Israel IS the nation of Israel, Truman then
recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. The proclamation was broadcast by David Ben Gurion across the middle East. Snagglepuss, I was born in 1943 and
I am likewise part of that generation.

Psalm 1

Last edited by Garand Hunter; 04-09-2020 at 10:19 AM.. Reason: sentence structure
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Old 04-09-2020, 1:16 PM
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John 1 is all about addressing the Gnostic thread within budding Christianity. Here's a wiki on the basics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(...sm)#Valentinus

Reread John 1 but rather than interpreting "Logos" as "Word," substitute the original "Logos" as you read:

"In the beginning (En arche) was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.... Then the Logos became flesh and lived among us."

This is John saying that the Logos of Gnosticism was, in fact, Jesus, begotten (emanated from) God who became flesh in the form of Jesus of Nazareth. Gnostics, especially the Docetic branch of Gnosticism, hated the physical world. The Docetic gospels had Jesus only appearing on earth since he could not be contaminated by actual flesh. The grass wouldn't even bend under his feet as he walked. John is putting that one to rest. To him, the Logos didn't just appear on earth. It became flesh and lived as a human. Unlike Paul, John actually knew Jesus personally during his life on earth. So he is fit to give this testimony.

En arche, in Greek, translated as "In the beginning" could also be a reference to the "God" of the Gnostic pantheon, Arche, Monad, Proarche, etc. This divinity is impersonal but is the original source of everything. It's a very Platonic diety -- perfect in all ways including no needs or want of worship. It doesn't create but simply emanates other divinities, which later give birth to the earth and humanity.

Truly, some things are best understood without translation. Once we move into English, people substitute in English meanings of Beginning, Word, etc. which aren't necessarily what the author intended. Again, 1. Context, 2. Context, 3. Context.

Gnosticism was taking over Christianity, reinterpreting it as a Hellenistic & Platonic religion instead of a Jewish religion. John was definitely among the more dualistic gospel writers (dualism is not traditional Judaism) but he didn't go as far as the Gnostics. Gnosticism was a heresy he was not ready to accept. So he wrote his own account of Jesus's life (The Gospel of John).

By the time he's writing Revelation, he's giving people hope within his view of good vs evil, light vs darkness, Jesus vs Satan. It's his own perspective. And it's an effective one during times of heavy persecution. It was intended to give people hope by offering a window into the spiritual realities that are shaping events in the physical world right now (Now = John's time). By uncovering these realities, the author hopes to offer hope and strength to endure persecution and difficulty today.

There are a number of ways to interpret the mark of the beast. Personally, I lean toward the view that it was probably Nero or Domitian. Not being able to buy or sell without the mark seems to fit perfectly with the dominance of Rome's economic system, which required using their coinage. Many Jews thought that using Roman coins was a form of idolatry or was simply a concession of Rome's authority. Remember the money changers in the temple? Remember the discussion of rendering to Caesar what is Caesar? Context.

Thinking that the mark of the best or Revelation in general is somehow about us today is, in my mind, a very self-centered view of history and religion. It's not about us. It's about them. Learn about them and you'll know what they were saying and why. There can be parallels and applications from there but it always starts with them, not us. I see it the same way I see some idiotic questions, such as, "Have you even read the Bible?" It's a comment (not a question) that says little about me and a ton about the author.

We disagree, but we likely come from a different place and that is nature of things. Different experiences can lead to different conclusions. Would you describe your belief system for me in as much detail as you are willing? But please keep it simple because I am a simple man. I am interested to learn about your actual beliefs and how they arose. Thanks.
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Old 04-09-2020, 3:27 PM
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The ideas in the New Testament in particular ...Bible yes were written with specific audiences in mind. Some are letters, accounts, and parables and so forth. But the ideas chosen by the church were universal in their teachings and they decided, since their ordination gave them authority, what belonged in the collection of scripture and what did not. Remember these were the church fathers who wrote the New Testament in fulfillment of Jesus instructions to spread the gospel. They were not perfect, no man is, but Jesus put men in charge of the society he officially created in the upstairs room with a group of 200 people I believe was the number needed to create a new society within the Jewish community....now made up of Jews and gentiles. He officially placed his apostles in charge of spreading the gospel, forgiving (or withholding) mens sin, serving others, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, casting out actual demons, etc and recruit more “priests” we are all called to be “priests” as Christians.

Thus the teaching of the gospel is intended to be universal. History has a way of repeating , from what we have learned over time, and thus teachings of scripture can always be applied to issues of any time, because there are universal truths and morals that remain objectively right and do not change with the times.

One thing about having your own individual interpretation, is that it may or may not be universal...or may not jive with the original intention. Like saying I hav my interpretation of Shakespeare, but it’s different than shakespeares. ....the teaching of Christ is universal which is why you can make the claims others have predated or teach the same....no problems there...what’s true is always true. And say what you will about Christ not being unique, but there’s a reason it’s CHRIST and not Osiris or any other mythological character who had profound influence on the lives and deaths of the martyrs in the first 100 years. It was His resurrection that caused 6million out of 7 million of His fellow Jews to believe In the end that He was the Mashiach after all

I too have no problem with paradoxes or ironies, neither does the church. Jesus put men in charge, it’s the equivalent of mom and dad saying we are leaving your older brother in charge, he’s not perfect amd he will mess up, but that’s on him to teach you what I’ve taught and to write it down so that it’s never forgotten. and you are to listen to him while I’m gone because it’s the best way for you all to grow spiritually and learn to continue teaching the generations after you ....

Christianity is NOTHING if not universal. Christ was God after all, and if the God of the universe had anything important to tell us, IMPORTANT ENOUGH to HUMBLE HIMSELF by becoming one of us, and Being tortured to death, it was not to teach us lessons in science or math or about the geography of the galaxy or history of man, but about the relationship between us and God, the LOVE AND MERCY He has for us NOW. And whether or not we accept and repent , He has paid the price for our inequity through His Death and Resurrection. That His teaching is for our own benefit in the bigger picture..the biggest picture of all, eternity.


This Holy Week is the best time to remember that when Christ died for us, nobody knew that He was the spotless lamb, the favored And only Son of God, the most innocent human being ever to bear the load of and become the embodiment of sin of the world from the beginning til the end of time.
(It actually brings tears to my eyes, when I think about how alone Jesus felt on that cross, abandoned by His Best friends, in His humanity, through the physical pain of all His visible wounds His skin shredded to ribbons by scourging, including his hidden wounds, like his shoulder, likely had nausea and suffered hunger too.)

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Old 04-10-2020, 6:29 AM
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Apparently Bill Gates is now pushing for a “digital certificate” ,or mark, to brand people who’ve gotten the corona vaccine. Without it, one will not be allowed to partake in business. Sounds an awful lot like the mark of the beast to me.



Any thoughts?

https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestne...is-vaccinated/

Revelation no matter which way it is sliced

https://biblehub.com/revelation/13-17.htm
OP! What an exciting time to be alive and have nothing to fear! I believe we are living in the generation that will see Jesus return for His people. Many prophecy's have been fulfilled as written in the previous posts. Israel is something to keep an eye on. Bill Gates?! Crazy to see him emurge and be involved in what's to come. I believe Jesus will return before we have to worry about the Mark. I recently dusted off Tim LaHayes "Are We Living in the End Times" from 1999, great book!
POST #21 nails it
God bless
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:42 AM
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We disagree, but we likely come from a different place and that is nature of things. Different experiences can lead to different conclusions. Would you describe your belief system for me in as much detail as you are willing? But please keep it simple because I am a simple man. I am interested to learn about your actual beliefs and how they arose. Thanks.
I have no interest in writing some sort of gospel according to CV.

But I have enough education and experience to offer some perspective on Christianity, its history and its texts. Far from simple arm-chair readings, I have formal education, a family lineage of ministers going back several generations and a semester-worth of study at a graduate university in Jerusalem.

I wouldn't dream of telling anybody what to believe. But I can confidently tell you quite a bit about the Bible, Christianity, ancient Near Eastern history, American Protestantism and a host of related topics. If you or anybody else here feel that Jesus and the gospel gives you the biggest sense of meaning in your life, I applaud you for finding something that works. It's a good system and it's not my place to convince you otherwise. But if somebody wants to say that, according to some passage in an ancient text, Trump is the anointed of YHWH or that Revelation is all about us today, I will disagree and provide evidence to the contrary. If you want to tell me that anything else other than Christianity is wrong, I will absolutely disagree with you. If anything, I respect Christianity enough to not let it be usurped by people whose only education is from Sunday School or their own, personal reading of the Bible.

We gun owners know for a fact that there is no substitute for good training. No armchair warrior can compete in the real world with a skilled, trained fighter. Yet, when it comes to religion, that's all some people think they need -- casual familiarity and passion are all one needs to understand the divine. I think those people simply don't know what they don't know. They mistake belief for knowledge and, in proclaiming knowledge, give their own belief system a bad name. I wouldn't consider myself among the professional academics or ministers who are truly knowledgeable about these things. But I've spent enough time under their tutelage to respect what they do and can offer some insight for those who are open to learning something rather than simply proclaiming something.

But if you or anybody else feel that I'm just another idiot on the internet, they're probably more right than not. In such cases, I can be kindly ignored. After all, I'm just another guy on the internet.

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Old 04-13-2020, 11:47 AM
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Interesting ...
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Old 04-13-2020, 1:59 PM
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The book of Revelation is a revealing of Jesus and His work for mankind throughout human history during the great controversy between good and evil from the beginning to the very end.

Couple quick thoughts:

1) the Bible should be used to interpret itself.
2) The books of Daniel and Revelation are companion pieces.
3) Revelation contains many references to old testament passages so the whole Bible must be used to interpret.
4) Revelation is written in cycles. 7 churches, 7 seal, 7 Trumps. The structure of the book is important to its understanding.

With that being said a quick overview of the mark of the beast has everything to do with the controversy of whom we worship and give our allegiance to. Revelation 13 starting in verse 11 it describes a beast that comes up out of the land about the same time a former beast receives a deadly wound (A beast in prophecy = a kingdom/power). It cause the people to worship the first beast that was wounded and to build an image to the previous beast. All who obey receives the Mark of the Beast everyone else is destined to be killed. So, the Mark of the beast is in opposition of the Seal of God. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. He also said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9. So essentially the mark of the beast and the seal of God are about how we worship God. By mans decree of how to worship or by spirit and truth and the word of God, the Bible.
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Old 04-16-2020, 8:40 PM
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I always wondered... what if we just get it on our left hand instead of right hand or forehead?
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:14 PM
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Thinking that the mark of the best or Revelation in general is somehow about us today is, in my mind, a very self-centered view of history and religion. It's not about us. It's about them. Learn about them and you'll know what they were saying and why. There can be parallels and applications from there but it always starts with them, not us. I see it the same way I see some idiotic questions, such as, "Have you even read the Bible?" It's a comment (not a question) that says little about me and a ton about the author.
I think you’re right on about understanding context, and that a historical understanding gives us better insight and a richer, more rounded read of The Bible. But...

To to offer a little push-back- isn’t it fractal? John may have been writing about something specific in his time to express a truth that’s universal and resonates out...

Maybe there was a specific mark of his time that he was naming...and maybe he’s simultaneously naming a mark that we could face? Not just his time, but all time, and therefore our time.

Personally, it wouldn’t matter if we thought we could say with certainty that “yes, John was absolutely referencing “X” of “Y” time.”

The warning still helps me make sense of the wacky, upside-down world I’m living in. And I think you’re wrong to suggest that anyone believing that John could have possibly been writing of our time in this sense is “reading tea leaves” or has “a self-centered view of religion”

CVS Shooter, side question- are you a mason? Or theosophist? Or some other esoteric, as-above-so-below school-ist?

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But I have enough education and experience to offer some perspective on Christianity, its history and its texts. Far from simple arm-chair readings, I have formal education, a family lineage of ministers going back several generations and a semester-worth of study at a graduate university in Jerusalem...

...If anything, I respect Christianity enough to not let it be usurped by people whose only education is from Sunday School or their own, personal reading of the Bible.

We gun owners know for a fact that there is no substitute for good training. No armchair warrior can compete in the real world with a skilled, trained fighter. Yet, when it comes to religion, that's all some people think they need -- casual familiarity and passion are all one needs to understand the divine. I think those people simply don't know what they don't know. They mistake belief for knowledge and, in proclaiming knowledge, give their own belief system a bad name. I wouldn't consider myself among the professional academics or ministers who are truly knowledgeable about these things. But I've spent enough time under their tutelage to respect what they do and can offer some insight for those who are open to learning something rather than simply proclaiming something.
I’ve gotta point it out, man- this comes across with strong air-of-superiority feel. Along with a big dose of dismissiveness.

I might be projecting a tone that isn’t there, or misreading what you’re writing -so I apologize if I am- but this reads like over-confidence (arrogance, really) in you’re experience and education. And implies that someone who hasn’t hailed from a lineage of ministers or has a doctorate from studying in Jerusalem, or has a mere “armchair” experience of the Bible is less “knowledgeable,” has “lesser” wisdom/experience of The Bible, God, Logos, or Christ.

Did you mean that? I can’t think that you did.
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On wrestling with ego and sin- ”Not only am I not above it, I’m swinging haymakers in the pigsty sometimes”

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Last edited by Grouchy Bear; 04-16-2020 at 11:29 PM..
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:47 PM
tsmithson tsmithson is offline
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Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob also know as Israel had twelve son’s. The twelve tribes of Israel. The olive tree or vineyard represents all the children of Israel not just Judah. The tribes of Israel are scattered throughout the earth.

I definitely believe these are the last days before the return of Jesus Christ.
Christian’s are in for another ruff ride through history.
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Old 04-17-2020, 7:46 AM
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RAMCLAP RAMCLAP is offline
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In those cities throughout the empire where they practiced emperor worship you had to go through a gate to get to the agora. In order to enter you had to woship the emperor and then the priest would take ash from the sacrifice and smear it on your forehead or hand. Then you could enter. Obviously Christians could not participate so they would have to buy and sell on the black market. Even going to the agora and refusing to woship would mark you out for pesrecution. That is the Mark of the Beast. It happened a long time ago.
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Psalm 103

Last edited by RAMCLAP; 04-17-2020 at 9:33 AM..
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Old 04-17-2020, 8:32 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouchy Bear View Post
I think you’re right on about understanding context, and that a historical understanding gives us better insight and a richer, more rounded read of The Bible. But...

To to offer a little push-back- isn’t it fractal? John may have been writing about something specific in his time to express a truth that’s universal and resonates out...

Maybe there was a specific mark of his time that he was naming...and maybe he’s simultaneously naming a mark that we could face? Not just his time, but all time, and therefore our time.

Personally, it wouldn’t matter if we thought we could say with certainty that “yes, John was absolutely referencing “X” of “Y” time.”

The warning still helps me make sense of the wacky, upside-down world I’m living in. And I think you’re wrong to suggest that anyone believing that John could have possibly been writing of our time in this sense is “reading tea leaves” or has “a self-centered view of religion”

CVS Shooter, side question- are you a mason? Or theosophist? Or some other esoteric, as-above-so-below school-ist?



I’ve gotta point it out, man- this comes across with strong air-of-superiority feel. Along with a big dose of dismissiveness.

I might be projecting a tone that isn’t there, or misreading what you’re writing -so I apologize if I am- but this reads like over-confidence (arrogance, really) in you’re experience and education. And implies that someone who hasn’t hailed from a lineage of ministers or has a doctorate from studying in Jerusalem, or has a mere “armchair” experience of the Bible is less “knowledgeable,” has “lesser” wisdom/experience of The Bible, God, Logos, or Christ.

Did you mean that? I can’t think that you did.
Somewhat, yes. I absolutely mean what I said. You can call me elitist or arrogant or whatever you want -- which are all common insults toward those who halfway know what they're talking about and can write in complete sentences. Hell, I've been called worse before so I can let it go.

Freemasons? Ha! No Illuminati for me. As I've said before, I don't adhere to any religious dogma, school of thought or tradition. But we're way off topic. PM me on any questions you have of me personally. I may or may not answer them. After all, we're all just gun nuts on an internet forum -- hardly the place to lay one's deepest sentiments for public scrutiny. Publicly, I prefer to keep things on-topic and I am not the topic of this thread.

As a side-note, kudos for the fractal reference. Mandelbrot is also among my intellectual heroes.

Last edited by CVShooter; 04-17-2020 at 8:34 AM..
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