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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #81  
Old 03-01-2021, 10:40 AM
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No ... I'll just remove the face diaper FIRST ... then, pull, point, and fire!
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  #82  
Old 05-18-2021, 4:53 PM
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Yes, this horse has been well and truly beaten well past death. But...

Things are about to change...

15 June, California moves out of the COVID levels, and masks are no longer *required.* However, many people will still wear masks for reasons that still apply, such as not vaccinated, compromised immune system, etc.

AFTER 15 June, do we believe that all of the COVID exceptions that allow CCW holders to wear masks AND carry concealed will still apply? That is, can I continue to wear a mask AND carry after 15 June?

And, if those exemptions still apply, does this essentially negate practical enforcement of PC 25300(a)?

Katie
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  #83  
Old 05-18-2021, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Yes, this horse has been well and truly beaten well past death. But...

Things are about to change...

15 June, California moves out of the COVID levels, and masks are no longer *required.* However, many people will still wear masks for reasons that still apply, such as not vaccinated, compromised immune system, etc.

AFTER 15 June, do we believe that all of the COVID exceptions that allow CCW holders to wear masks AND carry concealed will still apply? That is, can I continue to wear a mask AND carry after 15 June?

And, if those exemptions still apply, does this essentially negate practical enforcement of PC 25300(a)?

Katie
There never was a "COVID Exception" to PC 25300(a) and therefore no issue of whether any such non-existent exception will continue to apply.

PC section 25300(a) is poorly worded. It defines the crime as wearing a mask while carrying a firearm "so as to hide the person's identity." Many would like to read the section as having the intent or purpose of hiding identity, but that's not what the section says.

But there is a need to apply some level of common sense to enforcement, so long as the mask is worn for the purpose of COVID protection, I don't see anyone enforcing the section.
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  #84  
Old 05-18-2021, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by splithoof View Post
Yet again, Calguns manages to grow a forest of concern out of a seedling in a sidewalk crack. If you are not committing some obvious crime, hide your piece and go about your business. The way some folks around here create their own problems makes me wonder how they ever leave their houses without written contracts from every single imaginable government official that ever lived.
You mean you're not toting all of California Penal Code in a rollaway suitcase everywhere? Dang. I've been doing it wrong for years!
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  #85  
Old 05-22-2021, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Yes, this horse has been well and truly beaten well past death. But...

Things are about to change...

15 June, California moves out of the COVID levels, and masks are no longer *required.* However, many people will still wear masks for reasons that still apply, such as not vaccinated, compromised immune system, etc.

AFTER 15 June, do we believe that all of the COVID exceptions that allow CCW holders to wear masks AND carry concealed will still apply? That is, can I continue to wear a mask AND carry after 15 June?

And, if those exemptions still apply, does this essentially negate practical enforcement of PC 25300(a)?

Katie
Nothing's changed. The statute indicates the wearing of the mask, "...so as to hide the person's identity".

"So as to" is an idiom with a known and recorded, common usage meaning.

Free Dictionary: so as to: In order to; with the intention of.

Dictionary.com: In order to,

ESL: The idiomatic phrase “so as to” means in order to perform some kind of action that will have an effect on object or person.

English Study Page: use the structure of “so as to” to declare our goal or purpose.

Longman Dictionary: so as to do something; formal in order to do something

Power Thesaurus: in order to; conj.: purpose, aim; in order to

Synonyms.com: with the objective/purpose/aim to.... (do something)

If your purpose or aim is to hide your identity, then you have a problem. If not, you don't. How do you tell the difference?
Not my job.
On with life.
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  #86  
Old 05-25-2021, 6:59 AM
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I'm not applying common sense as I'm reading verbatim the law. It clearly states that an intent to hide identity is a material part of the law. That is real simple for me. All of those that desire to hold true to a miss-interpretation and don't feel comfortable understanding the intent - go for it.
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  #87  
Old 05-25-2021, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
^ - this

- the INTENT of the mask is to hide the identity

- again, law is not dumb.. it's sense and reason... if you are not INTENDING to hide your idenity then you can mask all you want with a CCW

- the intent of the law is to add more punishment to masked armed CRIMINALS...

- common sense people!
That's what's spelled out in an Arizona statute.

Last edited by DaveInOroValley; 05-25-2021 at 8:10 AM..
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  #88  
Old 05-25-2021, 7:53 AM
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Assumption: It is incredibly likely that at some point (probably MANY times) in the last 15 months, CCW holders have worn a mask during a traffic stop, and declared their status as a CCW holder (as required by some counties).

Fact: In 15 months, there has not been a single reported incident of law enforcement arresting or harassing PPE wearers with CCWs in CA.

Conclusion that can be reasonably drawn from above assumption & fact: The letter of the law is vague; it is unclear if one could be held in violation of it for wearing PPE while CCW. Some say yes, some say no. So, like most things in life, it is a risk that theoretically might exist. But the evidence suggests that the risk is incredibly small, such that it has never been reported to be a problem by anyone, ever. So you can either choose to walk on eggshells, which is your right, or you can continue doing what you believe is right, knowing that there's a tiny (but remotely possible, in theory) risk that it could get you in trouble.

My opinion, worth every penny you're paying for it: Nearly all LEOs will appreciate the courtesy of your wearing PPE in their presence, and will not harass you for it even if you have a CCW, as long as you remain respectful to them and abide by other laws. Furthmore, even if you were hypothetically charged by the officer for violation of the CCW face covering law, it is incredibly unlikely that a DA will try to press that charge in today's political/pandemic climate. But, of course, JMHO, IANAL, YMMV, etc. etc. And one can also reasonably assume that the risk (however big or small it is) is probably different in some areas of CA than in others. Some jurisdictions are known to be hostile to 2A, while other jurisdictions have outright said they consider PPE to be an exemption to the face covering law and will not charge anyone for violating it.
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Last edited by CandG; 05-25-2021 at 8:10 AM..
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  #89  
Old 05-25-2021, 9:09 PM
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@CandG, I wish, once again, this BB software had a Like or +1 button.

Thank you for the post. I think it sounds quite reasonable.

Katie
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  #90  
Old 05-29-2021, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
so as to hide the person’s identity

sounds to me as it comes under intent the mask you wear is intended to be used as plague protection

"so as to" is in the dictionary as meaning "In order to"

are you wearing the mask in order to hide your identity?


of course a good loop hole would be to write clearly your name on the mask
Best answer… law requires intent.
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  #91  
Old 05-29-2021, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCCW View Post
Best answer… law requires intent.

Well, to be clear, a few people dispute that, including the Librarian multiple times in this thread, starting with Post #20: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...6&postcount=20

Katie
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