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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
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  #10601  
Old 03-21-2019, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramynot View Post
I just finished the 4-day Marksmanship course and thought I'd give a report since it seems the course is still evolving and it seems some things are different from what others experienced.

First, we were on range 49 and at this range, there were no ammo cans and/or sand bags available for use. Fortunately I had a small gym bag in the truck and I stuffed it with whatever I could find, tarps, rags, etc. Even though it was near 80 deg on the first day of the course, I didn't stuff it with my cold weather gear because the forecast was for rain toward the end of the course and unfortunately... the forecast was correct.

The first two days were as others described with max shooting out to 200. Day 3 the rain, wind and cold came in and we started shooting out to 350. Shooting after lunch on day 3 went fairly quickly because many folks didn't come back!

Day 4 it was cold but fortunately no rain. We took the test, which as best I can remember was 2 shots each (see target that million_ants posted earlier in this thread):
35 yards off hand - 4" target top right
50 yards off hand - 5" target middle left
75 yards any position unsupported - 3" target top left
100 yards any position unsupported - 4" target top right
150 yards supported - 5" target middle left
200 yards supported - 6" target middle right
250 yards supported - 7" target upper middle
300 & 350 yards supported - 9" target lower middle

In our class we had one DG, which we heard was only the third DG of the course. He was an experienced precision rifle shooter who was a fantastic shot. He was using a 223 bolt gun shooting 55gr bullets! Pretty impressive he DG'd with those light bullets because when we took the test, the wind picked up and seemed to be around 10-12mph varying between 3/4 and full value. I managed to somehow G (someone must have shot my target...) and there were two other G's as well. I'm not sure what the other G's were shooting but I had a 308 bolt gun shooting 170gr bullets.

After the test we shot the playing card targets at 200 as someone else described. Then the real fun began. We got to shoot the steel half silhouettes from 400 and then shoot the small steel hanging gongs from 300. For the steel shooting we teamed up, with one person shooting and the other spotting for him/her. Lotsa fun.

As others have mentioned, the killer for the test is the off-hand shooting at 35 & 50 yards. Additionally I found going into the prone unsupported at 75 & 100 yards difficult because my 308 is so barrel heavy with a bull barrel. Much different from going into the prone with my AR.

Overall, another great course!
Ah-ha, there's the correct shooting sequence I could not remember!

Yes, heavy guns definitely are a liability on the offhand shooting part! Next time I'm coming back with a lighter gun. At the most, we shot 5 round strings, so the lighter barrel wouldn't hurt too much.
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  #10602  
Old 03-21-2019, 10:33 PM
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I can't remember if this was asked about the marksmanship class: are you to use holdovers or can you use the turrets?
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  #10603  
Old 03-22-2019, 1:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Instructors at weapon inspection will take all Glocks with aftermarket triggers to the armorer for a simulated drop test.

They basically bang the weapon on a rubber mat to see if the weapon goes click.



They've started doing this because many aftermarket triggers disable the internal safety features so they want to ensure the weapon is still safe.



No harm will come to the weapon.

What are you planning on shooting? Any modifications?


Frontsight gunsmithing will only install Agency Arms triggers. They have had a significant issue with other brands. It’s also the owner bunging up the install. I’ve seen them post pictures like the plunger spring in horizontal rendering it ineffective, installing set screws, etc. Really dumb stuff.


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Last edited by dad4mnc; 03-22-2019 at 2:42 AM..
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  #10604  
Old 03-22-2019, 6:06 AM
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Default I think the intent is to use holdovers

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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
I can't remember if this was asked about the marksmanship class: are you to use holdovers or can you use the turrets?
In the course I just took, there was no discussion about using your turrets. All of the discussion was about holdovers and for the folks with scopes, I saw many that had capped turrets. But I never heard them say you couldn't use your turrets. I used a Vortex Diamondback 4-12x which has external turrets and although I didn't use them, none of the staff came up to me to say I couldn't use them. I did see some folks fiddling with their scopes while setting up their for their shots so they may have been dialing in their elevation with their turrets.

I forgot to mention that one thing I liked about the class was there was a much greater variety of rifles than what you see in the Practical Rifle course. Some rifles even had wood stocks and weren't completely black! There were a couple of M1A's, someone brought out a lever gun, one guy had a beautiful old P17 Enfield in 30'06 that had been professionally sporterized sometime in the 60's, and someone else had a scout scope setup. For sighting systems there was the guy next to me using a rental AR with iron sights (he had a few hits on the steel silhouette the last day at 400 yards), red dots and ACOG's, hunting scopes without external turrets, and scopes with external turrets, parallax adjustment, etc. Pretty much everything.

Last edited by kramynot; 03-22-2019 at 6:13 AM.. Reason: Added info
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  #10605  
Old 03-22-2019, 6:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dad4mnc View Post
Frontsight gunsmithing will only install Agency Arms triggers. They have had a significant issue with other brands. It’s also the owner bunging up the install. I’ve seen them post pictures like the plunger spring in horizontal rendering it ineffective, installing set screws, etc. Really dumb stuff.




Yeah - in regards to Glock - I'd suggest just go with stock, especially for modifications that touch the internal safeties. If any mods are to be made - sights and grips at the most.

Even without modifications to either sights or grip, the pistol will be more than sufficient for the 4DDHG curriculum. They won't be a limitation to the shooter...

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  #10606  
Old 03-22-2019, 7:23 AM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
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A stock Glock is effective all the way through passing the Master's test.
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  #10607  
Old 03-22-2019, 7:59 AM
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These are from the Frontsight gun repair IG page



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  #10608  
Old 03-22-2019, 8:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
A stock Glock is effective all the way through passing the Master's test.
I wish I could say so, but, I have only gone through the 4DDHG last December. Hahaha...

Will be taking THG/ATHG in late May - and am intending to bring a stock service pistol.

Cheers!!




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  #10609  
Old 03-22-2019, 9:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
A stock Glock is effective all the way through passing the Master's test.
Correct!
A stock Glock is the most common weapon used to pass HCM.
Modifications are a disqualifier.

Do not look for an equipment fix to a training problem.
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  #10610  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramynot View Post
In the course I just took, there was no discussion about using your turrets. All of the discussion was about holdovers and for the folks with scopes, I saw many that had capped turrets. But I never heard them say you couldn't use your turrets. I used a Vortex Diamondback 4-12x which has external turrets and although I didn't use them, none of the staff came up to me to say I couldn't use them. I did see some folks fiddling with their scopes while setting up their for their shots so they may have been dialing in their elevation with their turrets.

I forgot to mention that one thing I liked about the class was there was a much greater variety of rifles than what you see in the Practical Rifle course. Some rifles even had wood stocks and weren't completely black! There were a couple of M1A's, someone brought out a lever gun, one guy had a beautiful old P17 Enfield in 30'06 that had been professionally sporterized sometime in the 60's, and someone else had a scout scope setup. For sighting systems there was the guy next to me using a rental AR with iron sights (he had a few hits on the steel silhouette the last day at 400 yards), red dots and ACOG's, hunting scopes without external turrets, and scopes with external turrets, parallax adjustment, etc. Pretty much everything.
That probably explains why so few people get Gs and DGs. It seems so imprecise. How did you guys gather data? How do they teach holding over?

The guy in your class DG'd is a precision rifle shooter. He most likely dialed the adjustments. Having taken the precision rifle course, I'd use the turrets. It's precise and repeatable.

Last edited by DRM6000; 03-22-2019 at 10:21 AM..
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  #10611  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:59 AM
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So taking the marks man course in two weeks. Is this something that can be completed with a standard 16 AR? Or would something more along precision lines be better alibi heavier. Stupid question but I need to give my light to my son to run.
Basically an 18” job rifle with their medium weight barrel. Was planning on running this opposed to my bolt gun due to being able to run heavier bullets.
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  #10612  
Old 03-22-2019, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
That probably explains why so few people get Gs and DGs. It seems so imprecise. How did you guys gather data? How do they teach holding over?

The guy in your class DG'd is a precision rifle shooter. He most likely dialed the adjustments. Having taken the precision rifle course, I'd use the turrets. It's precise and repeatable.
My sense from the discussions I had with others in the class is that the reason for the low number of DG's & G's was the closer off-hand and unsupported shots. To DG you can only miss 2 and to G you can only miss 5. You start the test with the 4 off-hand shots and then the 4 unsupported shots. I know I wasn't the only one who was out of DG contention before we even started shooting unsupported from the 100!

Data for bullet drops was gathered from numerous iterations of shooting at each distance then going up and measuring the drop. The standard for this course is built around 2 MOA, so not too precise. For the test, I think all targets are even larger than that. The 300 yard target is 9" plus a border, so approximately 3 MOA.

As for whether to bring a 16" AR, I'm a C&R / iron sights rifle shooter and after I left the Army 30+ years ago I haven't shot over 200 yards until I took this class. So I am woefully unqualified to make any recommendations. But when I go back for a skillbuilder, I wouldn't be taking a standard 16" barrel AR carbine. I think the only one I saw in the class was the rental. There were many AR platforms but it seemed they all had longer and heavier barrels and I'm not sure what caliber they were. When I go back, just like beanz2, I'll be opting for a lighter rifle without a bull barrel. It'll probably a bolt action in 308 shooting at least 168gr bullets. I'll be using the same scope, a Vortex 4-12x with MOA reticle. I dialed down to 4x for the 35 & 50 yard shots and used 12x for all distances after that. The MOA reticle with hashmarks every 2 MOA really helped when holding over for elevation.
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  #10613  
Old 03-22-2019, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
That probably explains why so few people get Gs and DGs. It seems so imprecise. How did you guys gather data? How do they teach holding over?

The guy in your class DG'd is a precision rifle shooter. He most likely dialed the adjustments. Having taken the precision rifle course, I'd use the turrets. It's precise and repeatable.
Just like allowing an isosceles shooter do his handgun class as long as he is hitting his targets, I bet they’ll leave you alone if you want to dial your turrets. But they do encourage the students to use hold overs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
So taking the marks man course in two weeks. Is this something that can be completed with a standard 16 AR? Or would something more along precision lines be better alibi heavier. Stupid question but I need to give my light to my son to run.
Basically an 18” job rifle with their medium weight barrel. Was planning on running this opposed to my bolt gun due to being able to run heavier bullets.
As long as your AR can do 2 MOA, I think the barrel length doesn’t matter. Not sure what barrel length was used for those dope sheets they give out, but you will see if you need more hold overs. Rather the gun, I’d worry more about the ammo. I went and tried a whole bunch of brands at my home range to see what my rifle likes, then I stuck to the same ammo for class.

My quest for a lighter rifle is just because I was really struggling with shooting offhand, but at the end it really boiled down to technique. I did start lifting weights for two months before class, but I don’t think it helped

What really helped for the longer distances was all the techniques they teach at Appleseed. Natural point of aim, shoot at respiratory pause, etc. I think taking Appleseed helped me a lot in this course.
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  #10614  
Old 03-22-2019, 2:55 PM
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Ok. I’ll scrub the idea of just taking a rack grade rifle. My 18” is kind of heavy but the 16” will be fine for my son. Both rifles run JP barrels and shoot well under 2”.
Not wanting to buy more scopes and stuff I’ll be running older 6.5x20 mil dot scope for this class on both guns. Looking forward to this class and to see how my son does with a slower pace.
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  #10615  
Old 03-22-2019, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Correct!
A stock Glock is the most common weapon used to pass HCM.
Modifications are a disqualifier.

Do not look for an equipment fix to a training problem.
I was under the impression the most common gun for the HCM was a 1911. Do you have a link to the list with the gun types? Also, not sure I remember the no modifications part either.
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  #10616  
Old 03-22-2019, 5:37 PM
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So, I have a few misc. low level memberships and some certs. If I convert them now just to get more than 1:1 later why do I have to pay "A one time, single payment of only $197, saving you $103."

This makes no sense. I have to pay to play his game?
Nobody?
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  #10617  
Old 03-22-2019, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
I was under the impression the most common gun for the HCM was a 1911. Do you have a link to the list with the gun types? Also, not sure I remember the no modifications part either.


When you take the class they give you a hard copy of the rules that describes unacceptable mods, etc.
I agree with LV - I see mostly glocks, other strikers. But def people run all kinds including 1911. Saw a revolver as well.
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  #10618  
Old 03-22-2019, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
I was under the impression the most common gun for the HCM was a 1911. Do you have a link to the list with the gun types? Also, not sure I remember the no modifications part either.
There is a list of the HCMs and the handguns they used on the FF forum. 1911s and Glocks are common.
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  #10619  
Old 03-22-2019, 6:25 PM
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I realize that this will be a highly variable number depending on many factors, but what would be a "reasonable" amount of ammo for a one day private HCMP?
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  #10620  
Old 03-22-2019, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
I realize that this will be a highly variable number depending on many factors, but what would be a "reasonable" amount of ammo for a one day private HCMP?


Yeah really depends on how much you want to do. 500?
If you practice multiples over and over you can really burn through it.
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  #10621  
Old 03-22-2019, 8:05 PM
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30 people have passed the test.
We know the weapon on 28 of them.

Glock 22 - 9
Glock 21 - 1
1911 - 5
Glock 34 - 7
XD .45 ACP - 1
Glock 17 - 2
H&K VP9 - 1
Glock 34 - 1
Glock 19x - 1
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  #10622  
Old 03-22-2019, 8:07 PM
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Can anyone share the new co-op link or whatever Dr Borat Piazza is selling?
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  #10623  
Old 03-23-2019, 7:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
30 people have passed the test.
We know the weapon on 28 of them.

Glock 22 - 9
Glock 21 - 1
1911 - 5
Glock 34 - 7
XD .45 ACP - 1
Glock 17 - 2
H&K VP9 - 1
Glock 34 - 1
Glock 19x - 1
Of course, the above listing is for the first time that the shooter passed the HCM test.

A few of us continue to train, and pass the test on a (semi-) regular basis.

I originally passed with a G22 (.40c), but have now switched over to a stock G17(9mm) as have the two other student HCM's that regularly take the test at FS.

The 9mm is less recoil and more "pleasant" to train with. You do lose 4 points for a periph, as it is minor caliber, but you can overcome that issue by just making your shots
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  #10624  
Old 03-23-2019, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Of course, the above listing is for the first time that the shooter passed the HCM test.



A few of us continue to train, and pass the test on a (semi-) regular basis.



I originally passed with a G22 (.40c), but have now switched over to a stock G17(9mm) as have the two other student HCM's that regularly take the test at FS.



The 9mm is less recoil and more "pleasant" to train with. You do lose 4 points for a periph, as it is minor caliber, but you can overcome that issue by just making your shots


I’ve been training with the 19, but I think I’m going to run a 17 the week after next. The grip doesn’t fit me as well but it is pretty nice to shoot.
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  #10625  
Old 03-23-2019, 8:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Correct!

A stock Glock is the most common weapon used to pass HCM.

Modifications are a disqualifier.



Do not look for an equipment fix to a training problem.


Does relieving the trigger guard on a Glock (Glock knuckle) count as a modification?


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  #10626  
Old 03-23-2019, 8:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pjose411 View Post
Can anyone share the new co-op link or whatever Dr Borat Piazza is selling?
https://www.frontsight.com/co-op/
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  #10627  
Old 03-23-2019, 8:47 AM
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Huh. I do t understand the coop. Basically gimme all your stuff that you can give or sell to your friends and you get more worthless renames credit points.
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  #10628  
Old 03-23-2019, 8:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
30 people have passed the test.
We know the weapon on 28 of them.

Glock 22 - 9
Glock 21 - 1
1911 - 5
Glock 34 - 7
XD .45 ACP - 1
Glock 17 - 2
H&K VP9 - 1
Glock 34 - 1
Glock 19x - 1
thanks Jedi. WOW, I didn't think it was that one sided.
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  #10629  
Old 03-23-2019, 11:11 AM
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I'll paste the current list below. I shoot an M&P Performance Center 9mm. Unfortunately my training schedule has gone to absolute crap over the last 9 months, that's going to take some time to overcome.

1. Dr. Ignatius Piazza (Glock 22)—Cert Date Unknown
2. Mr. Mark Flinn (Glock 21)—21 Sept 1997
3. Mr. Lawrence (Lenny) Boulton (Glock 22)—21 Sept 1997
4. Mr. Brad Ackman (1911)—30 Apr 2000
5. Dr. Paul Klausterman (1911)—Cert Date Unknown
6. Mr. Richard Sharrer (1911)—Cert Date Unknown
7. Mr. Jeff Hall (1911)—Cert Date Unknown
8. Mr. Wes LaHuillier (Glock 35)—15 May 2005
9. Mr. Noble LaHuillier (Glock 35)—10 Nov 2006
10. Mr. Gabe Nault (XD .45 ACP)—13 Jan 2008
11. Mr. Don Benfield (Glock 35)—13 Jan 2008
12. Mr. Roger Stubbs (Glock 35)—29 Jun 2008
13. Mr. Bill Kapeles (Glock 22)—21 Nov 2011
14. Mr. Rafi Sofair (Glock 22)—17 Nov 2013
15. Mr. Jonathan Reynolds (Glock 22 Gen 2)—20 Feb 2014
16. Mr. David Hollenbach (Glock 22)—17 Nov 2014
17. Mr. Kyle Hinkle (1911)—14 Dec 2014
18. Mr. Slavek Kasperowicz (Glock 17, 9mm MINOR)—5 January 2015
19. Mr. Timothy Sjobring (Glock 22)—18 February 2015
20. Mr. Wyatt Rakich (HK VP9, 9mm MINOR)—12 May 2015
21. Mr. Pierce Henkel (Glock 22)—24 May 2016
22. Mr. Philip Toppino (Glock 35)—22 Feb 2017
23. Dr. Rick Mantin (Glock 22)—11 Mar 2017
24. Mr. John Stoner (HK USP 9mm Tactical)—29 Apr 2017
25. Mr. Tim Hasey (S&W M&P .40 cal.)—2 June 2017
26. Mr. Shane Goldman (Glock 34)—13 Nov 2017
27. Mr. Zach McCormick (Glock 19X)—08 Jun 2018
28. Mr. Vince Losasso (Glock 17)—24 Nov 2018
29. Mr. Todd Tuschhoff (Glock 35)—15 February 2019
30. Mr. Peter Reece, Jr. (Glock 35)—28 February 2019
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  #10630  
Old 03-23-2019, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
30 people have passed the test.
We know the weapon on 28 of them.

Glock 22 - 9
Glock 21 - 1
1911 - 5
Glock 34 - 7
XD .45 ACP - 1
Glock 17 - 2
H&K VP9 - 1
Glock 34 - 1
Glock 19x - 1
Typo on the first G34 entry - should be G35.
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  #10631  
Old 03-23-2019, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjose411 View Post
Can anyone share the new co-op link or whatever Dr Borat Piazza is selling?
frontsight.com/co-op
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  #10632  
Old 03-23-2019, 4:21 PM
Mustard Mustard is offline
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Why am i surprised there aren't more g19's on the hcm list?
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  #10633  
Old 03-23-2019, 6:20 PM
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Jedi54 Jedi54 is offline
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Sight radius.
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  #10634  
Old 03-23-2019, 6:30 PM
Royal_Cake Royal_Cake is offline
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I haven’t been able to do better than 95 down with the G19, but so far it doesn’t seem like the gun has hindered me. But yeah thinking of trying the G17 for a while
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  #10635  
Old 03-23-2019, 7:43 PM
LV_G22 LV_G22 is offline
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I used my G23 in Handgun Combat Master for many years, as it was my EDC.

Eventually switched over to the full size G22 and now G17

I would recommend that you give the G17 a try....
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