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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1561  
Old 04-10-2021, 12:23 PM
sparky1979 sparky1979 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bolt_Action View Post
Probably the same thing that took so long the first two times he ruled on cases similar to this one.
How long was it for him to give us the first freedom week?

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  #1562  
Old 04-10-2021, 1:59 PM
SpookyWatcher SpookyWatcher is offline
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I'm trying to find the actual trial date for that but can't.

I'm just tingling because the timing seems right.

The VERY Honorable Benitez has had this for two months now. And with regard to Biden's shenanigans and the corrupt left's agenda it seems ripe to drop the truth gavel in the next month.

I hope I'm right, and it spurs the SC to finally take a 2A case. Time for them to pinch it off and get off this sh**ter
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  #1563  
Old 04-10-2021, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SpookyWatcher View Post
The VERY Honorable Benitez has had this for two months now.
He's coming up on 1 month since the last filing (the state's response to his request for firearm sales numbers).

Not gonna lie though, I was definitely checking this thread every hour or so on Friday afternoon.
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  #1564  
Old 04-11-2021, 2:04 AM
AbrahamBurden AbrahamBurden is offline
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Pretty much praying for grandfathering of existing assault weapons without registration. If a cop really wanted to destroy you they could run the make/model/serial through DROS records and see that you acquired an "assault weapon" after Benitez's hypothetical "freedom week" for assault weapons, but if something like millions of assault weapons become legal overnight, I suspect that cops would be largely disinclined to harass random people at gun ranges just due to the resulting legal herd immunity and high likelihood of shaking down someone who would have a legal rifle, making that cop look dumb for wasting the prosecution's time and resources.

If Benitez gives us registration of ALL assault weapons (even ones without bullet buttons) for like 1 week, it's worth essentially nothing. Registration just targets yourself for being harassed by DOJ (see that one guy who got shaken down by cops for his AR pistol that he attempted to register) and given how badly the state bungled up the previous registration scheme, I doubt more than 4 figures of assault weapons would be registered successfully anyway.
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  #1565  
Old 04-11-2021, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AbrahamBurden View Post
Pretty much praying for grandfathering of existing assault weapons without registration. If a cop really wanted to destroy you they could run the make/model/serial through DROS records and see that you acquired an "assault weapon" after Benitez's hypothetical "freedom week" for assault weapons, but if something like millions of assault weapons become legal overnight, I suspect that cops would be largely disinclined to harass random people at gun ranges just due to the resulting legal herd immunity and high likelihood of shaking down someone who would have a legal rifle, making that cop look dumb for wasting the prosecution's time and resources.

If Benitez gives us registration of ALL assault weapons (even ones without bullet buttons) for like 1 week, it's worth essentially nothing. Registration just targets yourself for being harassed by DOJ (see that one guy who got shaken down by cops for his AR pistol that he attempted to register) and given how badly the state bungled up the previous registration scheme, I doubt more than 4 figures of assault weapons would be registered successfully anyway.
What do you mean by "legal herd immunity"?

Is this something that you're just making up, or can you cite to any legal authority establishing, or recognizing, such an immunity?
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Last edited by RickD427; 04-11-2021 at 9:25 AM..
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  #1566  
Old 04-11-2021, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AbrahamBurden View Post
Pretty much praying for grandfathering of existing assault weapons without registration.
Good luck on that.
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  #1567  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:02 AM
AbrahamBurden AbrahamBurden is offline
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
What do you mean by "legal herd immunity"?

Is this something that you're just making up, or can you cite to any legal authority establishing, or recognizing, such an immunity?
I mean that if say 95 out of 100 ARs with pistol grips and standard magazine releases become legal overnight, then in my view cops/DOJ will be largely disinclined to randomly harass people at the range to fish for the 5 out of 100 that are illegal (acquired/created after the "freedom week"). Of course you'd be screwed if they really turned the heat up and ran the serial numbers through DROS records, but what I'm saying is that a situation where they'd even check said serial numbers would become much more unlikely.

Herd "immunity" was an inaccurate term on my part for this phenomenon; dunno what one would exactly call this legally.
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  #1568  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
What do you mean by "legal herd immunity"?

Is this something that you're just making up, or can you cite to any legal authority establishing, or recognizing, such an immunity?
I think, and I could be wrong, he is trying to refer to something along the lines of one of the observations in United States v Black (4th Cir, 2013) that:

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The Government contends that because other laws prevent convicted felons from possessing guns, the officers could not know whether Troupe was lawfully in possession of the gun until they performed a records check. Additionally, the Government avers it would be "foolhardy" for the officers to "go about their business while allowing a stranger in their midst to possess a firearm." We are not persuaded. Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status...
...with the parallel being possession of an assault weapon (in a hypothetical situation similar to the current state of 'large-capacity magazines') having acquired it illegally would "not be the default status" to the extent that the officers could use it as reasonable suspicion to detain someone and investigate whether their possession of it was legal.

Anyway, that's what I thought he meant by it. I presume without knowing or claiming to be any kind of expert that the laws and case law here are, in effect, much much worse for the fourth amendment rights of firearm owners.
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  #1569  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AbrahamBurden View Post
I mean that if say 95 out of 100 ARs with pistol grips and standard magazine releases become legal overnight, then in my view cops/DOJ will be largely disinclined to randomly harass people at the range to fish for the 5 out of 100 that are illegal (acquired/created after the "freedom week"). Of course you'd be screwed if they really turned the heat up and ran the serial numbers through DROS records, but what I'm saying is that a situation where they'd even check said serial numbers would become much more unlikely.

Herd "immunity" was an inaccurate term on my part for this phenomenon; dunno what one would exactly call this legally.
OK, Now I understand you much better. Thanks for the response.

What you describe really isn't an "Immunity" but rather a commentary on the discretionary enforcement of law.

California has very pointedly rejected the concept that criminal statutes are intended to be enforced to the letter. The underlying philosophy is that criminal laws are written to provide the necessary tools so that enforcement agencies can accomplish proper law enforcement objectives. Please see Penal Code section 4, where this is spelled out in statute.
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  #1570  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:19 AM
Bolt_Action Bolt_Action is offline
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
California has very pointedly rejected the concept that criminal statutes are intended to be enforced to the letter. The underlying philosophy is that criminal laws are written to provide the necessary tools so that enforcement agencies can accomplish proper law enforcement objectives. Please see Penal Code section 4, where this is spelled out in statute.
This is interesting, I had not seen this before. Does this mean the concept of strict liability does not exist in CA? Has anyone ever used this section successfully as part of a criminal defense?
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  #1571  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AbrahamBurden View Post
Pretty much praying for grandfathering of existing assault weapons without registration.
I think there are 4 options:
  • He issues a narrow decision theoretically favorable to those who successfully registered a BBAW, but - unlike Freedom Week - he or the 9th Circus issues a stay such that there's no practical benefit to us until or unless SCOTUS picks it up.
  • He issues a wider decision theoretically favorable to everyone who owns a lower receiver at the time of his ruling, but again a stay - his or the 9th's - means there's no benefit to us for a long while, if ever.
  • His decision and self-imposed stay are befitting the name St. Benitez, but only apply to those with registered BBAWs. (Bullet buttons come off, but everyone else is out of luck.)
  • We win the lotto. His decision applies to everyone currently in possession of any lower receiver, and the stay is written such that we're grandfathered and can do whatever we want this side of the NFA.
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  #1572  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pratchett View Post
I think there are 4 options:
  • He issues a narrow decision theoretically favorable to those who successfully registered a BBAW, but - unlike Freedom Week - he or the 9th Circus issues a stay such that there's no practical benefit to us until or unless SCOTUS picks it up.
  • He issues a wider decision theoretically favorable to everyone who owns a lower receiver at the time of his ruling, but again a stay - his or the 9th's - means there's no benefit to us for a long while, if ever.
  • His decision and self-imposed stay are befitting the name St. Benitez, but only apply to those with registered BBAWs. (Bullet buttons come off, but everyone else is out of luck.)
  • We win the lotto. His decision applies to everyone currently in possession of any lower receiver, and the stay is written such that we're grandfathered and can do whatever we want this side of the NFA.
I believe you are conflating some cases here... this is a direct challenge to the AW ban and has nothing to do with the BBRAW fiasco.

The "lotto" scenario is the one that the complaint asks for (enjoinder of the enforcement of ANY AW law), it's really the only one on the table. I expect that's what we get, but it comes with an immediate stay of said enjoinder and a trip up the chain, presumably to a cert request to SCOTUS in a few years.

So, maybe we get our shot in the Big Show, but until that happens, expect no additional Freedom to be forthcoming.
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