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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-16-2020, 8:28 AM
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Denever Denever is offline
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Default Need recommendation for gun rights lawyer

I have a friend who's a rancher near Sacramento. He's never been in trouble in his life, until ...

He was driving around his property and he pulled up to talk to two guys in a truck who'd been working on the neighbor's land. It got testy, and one guy jumped out of the truck, ran toward my friend, and reached for him in a threatening way. My friend instinctively grabbed the .22 rifle he always has with him for coyotes, pointed it at the guy, and threatened to shoot him if the guy grabbed or punched him.

Jury acquitted on assault but convicted on criminal threat with a firearm, so he's lost his gun rights. He needs someone to help get them restored after he finishes probation.

There are a lot of gun rights lawyers out there. If anyone has a recommendation of who's good or who to avoid, please give me a name or two so I can help my friend. Thanks.
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Old 11-17-2020, 7:00 AM
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Old 11-17-2020, 3:49 PM
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I woulda let him hit me and shot him...
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Old 11-17-2020, 7:05 PM
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Adam Richards is a Sacramento lawyer that specializes in firearms law. He helped me with a ccw issue with a good result. I believe he is a calgunner as well.

He can be reached at 916-399-3486 or adam@ajrlaw.net

good luck

Ed
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Old 11-17-2020, 8:51 PM
darkwater34 darkwater34 is online now
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It is going to be tough because an assault charge involving a firearm. All the same good luck so a rattlesnake is guilty of assault if he rattles. Don't make any sense unless he fired the gun. Should appeal the case otherwise. I am not an attorney anything I state here should not be misconstured or interpeted as legal advice.
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:58 PM
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It's going to be tough for sure. Please have your buddy read "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca. Basically there are 5 elements all of which have to be cleared in order to have a successful self defense argument of which he failed at least 2, IMHO:

Innocence - Fail (He did initiate the confrontation)
Imminence - Pass (The guy charged at him)
Proportionality - Pass (Pulling the gun was probably correct)
Avoidance - Fail (He could have driven off and called the police)
Reasonableness - Maybe (His actions seem reasonable)

This is just my take. The jury probably looked at it a little differently. Now California law states that you cannot display a firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner (brandishing). Maybe that's what they got him on.
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Old 11-19-2020, 3:37 PM
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I hope your friend finds help. Seems a bit late. Should've been talking to a lawyer before trial.

BTW, is the such thing as insurance for this situation? I have a 6 acre property a few miles from anyone. I conceal carry on my property (since I'm now home all the time). There have been questionable people who have come onto my property. If I need to defend my family, is there some firearm insurance?
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Old 11-19-2020, 4:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denever View Post
I have a friend who's a rancher near Sacramento. He's never been in trouble in his life, until ...

He was driving around his property and he pulled up to talk to two guys in a truck who'd been working on the neighbor's land. It got testy, and one guy jumped out of the truck, ran toward my friend, and reached for him in a threatening way. My friend instinctively grabbed the .22 rifle he always has with him for coyotes, pointed it at the guy, and threatened to shoot him if the guy grabbed or punched him.

Jury acquitted on assault but convicted on criminal threat with a firearm, so he's lost his gun rights. He needs someone to help get them restored after he finishes probation.

There are a lot of gun rights lawyers out there. If anyone has a recommendation of who's good or who to avoid, please give me a name or two so I can help my friend. Thanks.
Michel & Assoc. is probably the preeminent gun rights law firm in the state. As said above, probably should have gotten a firearms lawyer to begin with...

https://michellawyers.com/
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2020, 4:36 PM
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2020, 9:15 AM
CPRAFAN CPRAFAN is offline
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Default Firearm insurance . . . USCCA

Check out: "The U.S. Concealed Carry Association Exists to Help Responsible Americans Like You" Members receive exclusive benefits such as self-defense education, training, and self-defense liability insurance1. Google for more info

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Originally Posted by One in the pipe View Post
I hope your friend finds help. Seems a bit late. Should've been talking to a lawyer before trial.

BTW, is the such thing as insurance for this situation? I have a 6 acre property a few miles from anyone. I conceal carry on my property (since I'm now home all the time). There have been questionable people who have come onto my property. If I need to defend my family, is there some firearm insurance?
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  #11  
Old 11-21-2020, 9:14 PM
intradubio intradubio is offline
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10 year ban, CA PC 29805. Buying insurance or getting a lawyer won't help but a pardon from the governor would. This is not legal advice.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2020, 9:23 PM
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10 year ban, CA PC 29805. Buying insurance or getting a lawyer won't help but a pardon from the governor would. This is not legal advice.
You're right on point here. And we have a Governor who ain't gonna issue a pardon under these conditions.

The only real avenue of relief is to overturn the conviction triggering the application of PC 29805. That's not an effort to be undertaken by amateurs.

I'll second the recommendation for Michel and Associates. They're the predominant law firm in this areas. Jason Davis is also quite good. Adam Richards is a member of this forum and frequently posts here.
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Old 11-21-2020, 9:30 PM
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I was going to delete my post but RickD427 followed up to it already. I wonder if maybe getting the 417 (if that what it was) expunged via 1203.4(a) after completing probation could be a possible way around the 10 year ban. Oops.
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Old 11-21-2020, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by intradubio View Post
I was going to delete my post but RickD427 followed up to it already. I wonder if maybe getting the 417 (if that what it was) expunged via 1203.4(a) after completing probation could be a possible way around the 10 year ban. Oops.
A PC 1203.4 expungment would not restore firearms rights taken away by PC 29805.

Please refer to the following provision, quoted from PC 1203.4(a)(2):

"Dismissal of an accusation or information pursuant to this section does not permit a person to own, possess, or have in his or her custody or control any firearm or prevent his or her conviction under Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800) of Division 9 of Title 4 of Part 6."
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Old 11-29-2020, 10:41 AM
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2020, 7:02 PM
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How much money does he have? This could take a long time.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2020, 8:52 PM
jeremiah12 jeremiah12 is offline
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You have been given the best information on gun rights attorneys.

Your friend has learned a lesson the hard way, the time to hire the very best attorney is when you are first charged. After the conviction, it is much harder to get a conviction overturned. For your friend to have his gun rights restored, that is what he needs.

My youngest brother was charged with a major felony in OR. He thought his court appointed attorney was inept so he refused to cooperate with him and provide him key information that would have allowed a good attorney to poke holes in the "victims" story. The victim was his half-sister who wanted my half brother in prison so she would be the sole inheritor to their grandparents sizable estate.

My youngest brother could have provided the names of family members that would have testified as to the motive of his half-sister and conversations she had with them that strongly suggested her claims were false.

My idiot brother decided he would wait for the appeals process because the judge and his attorney were against him.

He learned that the appeals process is not about introducing new evidence but about reviewing what happened at the trial court to determine if the process was conducted legally. If he chose to not cooperate and help provide the best defense, that was on him.

One of the points of the appeals process was to claim his original defense attorney did not provide an adequate defense. He did not win on that. That one might have lead to a new trial but as long as his attorney provided an adequate defense, that was good enough. It did not have to be the best, just adequate.

People who get caught up as a defendant in a criminal case want to believe they did the right thing and want their day in court. A top attorney will tell you up front how likely you will win and will also attempt to work out the very best possible plea deal. In this case it would have been a deal that did not include pleading to a charge that resulted in the loss of gun rights or one where gun rights would be restored after probation.

I live in an area with sketchy people all around the neighborhood. I live near an area that is infested with gangbangers and recently has had an influx of homeless that are living next to the nearby freeway or in the nearby parks. Thefts and assaults are skyrocketing.

Before I started carrying outside on my property, I consulted with a gun attorney. That is why I now have a fence completely encircling my yard. I have a few gates that I can lock so I have zones. I have to leave the pathway from the sidewalk to the front door open for mail and other deliveries so the rest of the yard is fenced off and access is limited by locked gates. I can carry behind those gates. When I am working in the front, I can close and lock the gate across the driveway so I can legally carry in that zone.

When outside, I cannot defend property with deadly force. I can only defend myself or my family if I do what I can to avoid a confrontation. So, in your friend's situation, he could have rolled up his window. Nothing demonstrates the intent of the other to commit assault than a broken window.

Your friend could have driven off. With cell phones being common, while driving off, call 911. I know he is on his property and retreating should not need to be done but in CA it is what it is.

Back up a bit further, just as the discussion started to get heated, he should have stopped engaging in it and said have a good day and left. Your ego is not worth the legal consequences. The bad guys have less to lose and know how to work the system.

The evidence that your friend did not feel he was in immediate danger was he threatened to shoot them if they continued. That is a threat and illegal.

A gun only comes into play when you can legally use it because the threat to your safety is immediate. You do not have time to do anything else but pull the trigger. That means no verbal warning and no warning shots. It means the other person is an immediate threat to you physical safety and life right now and the only response a reasonable person has is to shoot.

Remember, we are in CA and that reasonable person will be the members of the jury that is mostly anti-gun and has been taught by schools and other institutions to just run, hide, call the police, do anything but shoot.

If your friend instinctively reached for a gun in a heated discussion because someone got out of a truck and came over to him, he needs to retrain his instincts.

BTW, when I am carrying which is CC so I do not have to deal with neighbors or others calling reports of my carrying a gun on my property, which the police have to investigate, even if I go inside and disarm before they arrive and tell them to speak with my attorney and not answer their questions, it will still look bad if I have to use my gun later.

I also have my cell phone with me so if a bad guy tries to engage me, I can retreat behind a gate and lock it and then call 911. If need be I can also go into my home and make the call. They would have to jump the fence so I have enough time to get inside.

The gun is only to be used if the bad guy is an immediate threat to a loved one, which means he is going to harm that person within a couple of seconds or to me. It will not be the result of an argument because I do not engage in those. The second it turns from a pleasant discussion to something worse I wish the person a good day and say I am leaving. I do not respond to any taunts after that. I will not pull the gun in response to threats. It will only be to an action on their part that will cause my immediate harm.

The days of heated discussions are over. Too often they result in someone pulling a gun over hurt feelings.

I wish your friend luck. At this point he will need to spend big bucks and he needs the best attorney working for him. Even with that his chances of success are not that great in this state. Sometimes it is better to take the first punch so everyone can be clear that the bad buy is really the agressor. Even then, if you engaged in any sort of an arguement or heated discussion with him before that, you can easily be considered a mutual combatant. At that point the gun needs to stay put away.
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2020, 8:01 AM
seaweedsoyboy seaweedsoyboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
A gun only comes into play when you can legally use it because the threat to your safety is immediate. You do not have time to do anything else but pull the trigger. That means no verbal warning and no warning shots. It means the other person is an immediate threat to you physical safety and life right now and the only response a reasonable person has is to shoot.
...
If your friend instinctively reached for a gun in a heated discussion because someone got out of a truck and came over to him, he needs to retrain his instincts.
...
The days of heated discussions are over. Too often they result in someone pulling a gun over hurt feelings.
This^^^

You do not start ****, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk ****, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.

“From now on, when dealing with crazy or possibly violent people, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the **** down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk **** about your ladyfriend. You will let them call your mother a ***** and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego. You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you're going to pull it and kill him. And even if you don't go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you're going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone's life and yet you let your ego kill someone.

After backing down and trying to apologize, if you feel your life or that of a loved one is in immediate danger, put three rounds into his cardiothoracic vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision to kill himself."
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