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  #41  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:35 PM
Calciferr Calciferr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajb78 View Post
Yes, yes you should. Cokebottle said OpLaw, not DROS.


Well thatís news to me. Iíve never seen anywhere that shipping a gun across state lines is allowed from the CA DOJ. Then yeah of course thatís not legal.

Is there a document this is written in it from the DOJ somewhere?



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  #42  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:36 PM
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Well, let us know how it goes for you.
I hope you are correct in thinking that you are not "manufacturing", and that you are not manufacturing an "unsafe" pistol.

If it does go through, and you let us know you will be doing all of us a huge favor.
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  #43  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:37 PM
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Will do.

Pictures in review now so we will see what happens.



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  #44  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:56 PM
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So your unsafe comment and me mentioning microstamping made me look back at some of the documentation they sent me.

Iíve attached the one here in question. It has no personal information.

Basically the semi section says needs microstamping which would be the only section I canít comply with so therefore making me have to do single shot to not fall under the unsafe categorization.

So I guess I might be wrong after all.

That being said pictures already submitted so we will see what they say.





Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
Well, let us know how it goes for you.

I hope you are correct in thinking that you are not "manufacturing", and that you are not manufacturing an "unsafe" pistol.



If it does go through, and you let us know you will be doing all of us a huge favor.



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  #45  
Old 09-30-2018, 9:57 PM
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Sorry that picture quality. Letís see if this is better.




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  #46  
Old 09-30-2018, 10:21 PM
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Here is the second page.

The thing that is troubling me is that last section about drop safety. It says 3 sample firearms must be submitted for testing. Both single shot and semi auto must meet it. So do I make 3 guns all with the same serial number they provided for testing? lol

This whole things seems unrealistic which is why when I first read it I thought it didnít apply to me.




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  #47  
Old 09-30-2018, 10:46 PM
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Yup. Now you can see why I am saying what I am saying.

They have effectively erased the difference between manufacturer and a builder for personal use.

As in they treat home builds as if we are building to distribute.

Look at the bottom of my post here: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...7&postcount=14
Seems to me that they have created a loop. You are not prevented from submitting a request for a serial number (after I imagine you paid the fee). Then you start going through the process which you seem to not be able to finish. They keep the fee, what we don't know if you can actually finish the process. Or if this will end in you self-incriminating yourself as having manufactured an "unsafe" pistol regardless of all the information you were given.
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  #48  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:05 PM
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Yup...

I see now. What bull****.

Guess worst case Iím stuck with a P320 frame I can never assemble, or worst case Iím thrown in jail.

That being said in worst case hopefully I get probation but I still get my gun rights taken away even thought Iíve never been to jail before. Worst I have is speeding tickets. I have no previous crimes record.

Iíll keep you all posted. If I go silent for more then a month Iím probably in jail fighting to get out to take care of my young 2 year old twins.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
Yup. Now you can see why I am saying what I am saying.

They have effectively erased the difference between manufacturer and a builder for personal use.

As in they treat home builds as if we are building to distribute.

Look at the bottom of my post here: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...7&postcount=14
Seems to me that they have created a loop. You are not prevented from submitting a request for a serial number (after I imagine you paid the fee). Then you start going through the process which you seem to not be able to finish. They keep the fee, what we don't know if you can actually finish the process. Or if this will end in you self-incriminating yourself as having manufactured an "unsafe" pistol regardless of all the information you were given.





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  #49  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:09 PM
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Did you get the S/N from DOJ?
Did you finish the build?
Did you engrave the S/N on it?
Were the pictures you provided to DOJ of the P320 in Semi-Auto config?
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  #50  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:14 PM
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Build finished
Engraved with SN, name, model, caliber, city and state as required by CA DOJ.
Pictures sent in were of frame only as I applied for frame only.

My guess is it will be approved and then if Iím caught with it built in a semi-auto form then Iíll be in trouble.

At least thatís what Iím hoping for now. Or it will be rejected as there isnít anything else on it yet. No trigger or anything just the metal frame completed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
Did you get the S/N from DOJ?
Did you finish the build?
Did you engrave the S/N on it?
Were the pictures you provided to DOJ of the P320 in Semi-Auto config?





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  #51  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calciferr View Post
Build finished
Engraved with SN, name, model, caliber, city and state as required by CA DOJ.
Pictures sent in were of frame only as I applied for frame only.

My guess is it will be approved and then if I’m caught with it built in a semi-auto form then I’ll be in trouble.

At least that’s what I’m hoping for now. Or it will be rejected as there isn’t anything else on it yet. No trigger or anything just the metal frame completed.


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Yeah, frame only should not get you in trouble.
But you may simply be stuck and unable to build it up.
Because there doesnt seem to be a legal way to do so.

So I guess it is a sneaky way for CA to take our money.
You want a serial number for a frame you plan to finish into 100%? No problem, send us your money, you still can't make it I to a functionally assembled gun.
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  #52  
Old 09-30-2018, 11:39 PM
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So is this the same for anything built before July 1st?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
Yeah, frame only should not get you in trouble.
But you may simply be stuck and unable to build it up.
Because there doesnt seem to be a legal way to do so.

So I guess it is a sneaky way for CA to take our money.
You want a serial number for a frame you plan to finish into 100%? No problem, send us your money, you still can't make it I to a functionally assembled gun.





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  #53  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:13 AM
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  #54  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calciferr View Post
So is this the same for anything built before July 1st?
I dont think so.

Builds before 7/1 were required to be registered. It was too late for them to kill those.

Builds after 7/1 appear to be treated as made for sale, as in you have to get them certified according to the letters they send to people.

So basically (and I am not sure how legal it is) they are killing the possibility of those builds because they are not treating them as "built for personal use".

I think we need to consult lawyers about the validity of the claims in those letters.
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  #55  
Old 10-01-2018, 1:01 AM
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That was a long way around to get to Mosinís original response. FWIW once Mosin said it wasnít possible, game over. Iíve been watching him build stuff longer then Iíve been on here.

It appears there is someone who can tell us first hand whatís going to happen.

I just hope you donít get in a ton of trouble. But it seems no matter what, that bell has been rung.




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  #56  
Old 10-01-2018, 6:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MosinVirus View Post
Ca views an unfinished frame or receiver as a firearm now I am not even talking about the whole polymer argument... I am talking about the whole 80% thing... the deadline, and the registration.

Many of you know I would love to build... but I am not seeing how I can continue to build and remain compliant.
Going back to this, was this the precursor parts bill, AB 2382?
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  #57  
Old 10-06-2018, 10:07 PM
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Since a few ppl have asked I'll update everyone.

CFARS still says "images in review"

Last edited by Calciferr; 10-06-2018 at 10:12 PM..
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  #58  
Old 10-08-2018, 4:55 PM
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Thanks for the update. I uploaded my pics for my frame on 10/1. I have the same status on CFARS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calciferr View Post
Since a few ppl have asked I'll update everyone.

CFARS still says "images in review"
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  #59  
Old 10-08-2018, 6:40 PM
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Default sse2

So, if I apply for a SN and build a single shot 1911 or 2011 I should be OK up to that point. But what happens when I convert the SSE2 pistol to a semi auto?
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  #60  
Old 10-08-2018, 7:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
So, if I apply for a SN and build a single shot 1911 or 2011 I should be OK up to that point. But what happens when I convert the SSE2 pistol to a semi auto?


Probably not, but who the hell knows now. Apparently the DOJ doesnít


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  #61  
Old 10-08-2018, 8:10 PM
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After June, I pretty much stopped all home builds. Did what I could before then and that was it. The new laws are way to murky for me, especially the 80% pistol builds.
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  #62  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:55 PM
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Ok... So Self engraved guns with a self created serial number made well before 7/1/2018 are okay?

DAMN I HATE THIS STATE!!! No, I hate the stupid laws in this state. Demonize the gun, yet its the texters that scare me DAILY! Car accidents DAILY... Shootings?! They have never affected me personally.
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  #63  
Old 10-09-2018, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CalArkansas View Post
Ok... So Self engraved guns with a self created serial number made well before 7/1/2018 are okay?


Nope


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  #64  
Old 10-09-2018, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalArkansas View Post
Ok... So Self engraved guns with a self created serial number made well before 7/1/2018 are okay?

DAMN I HATE THIS STATE!!! No, I hate the stupid laws in this state. Demonize the gun, yet its the texters that scare me DAILY! Car accidents DAILY... Shootings?! They have never affected me personally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnk518 View Post
Nope


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With technicality, no. It had to be a single shot pistol before 7/1/2018, and then you had to have converted it before 7/1/2018 with your own engraving and serial number before 7/1/2018, and registered before 7/1/2018.
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  #65  
Old 10-09-2018, 8:31 PM
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current consensus is the days of the 80% in CA are over. The DOJ has made it impossible now.


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  #66  
Old 10-09-2018, 9:09 PM
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For me there may be an answer. Consider the following. I give all of my 80% pistol frames to my son, who does not live in CA. He completes them, engraving them in full compliance with ATF requirements. He then gifts them to me and I DROS them as intrafamily transfers. What do you think?
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  #67  
Old 10-09-2018, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
For me there may be an answer. Consider the following. I give all of my 80% pistol frames to my son, who does not live in CA. He completes them, engraving them in full compliance with ATF requirements. He then gifts them to me and I DROS them as intrafamily transfers. What do you think?


It still wonít have 3.7 oz of steel in the frame, nor have identical examples been given to the DOJ for safety compliance. Also when I say DOJ I mean CA DOJ, ATF would only satisfy the federal side not CA (like tax stamps and silencers okay federally not in CA).

Plus it would simply be cheaper buying an actual Glock.

I might be wrong so if anyone else has solid info chime in.


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  #68  
Old 10-09-2018, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnk518 View Post
It still wonít have 3.7 oz of steel in the frame, nor have identical examples been given to the DOJ for safety compliance.
The polymer frame without the 3.7oz stainless may be a problem.
As for the DOJ testing, that is the process to get a gun listed on the roster (which requires microstamping).
Off-roster handguns may be transferred PPT, or interstate via intrafamilial. The problem would likely be the same as if you attempted a late vol-reg by way of pawn-and-return, since California now prohibits the transfer of self-built firearms.
Since the son is not a federally licensed 07FFL, and thus not a recognized manufacturer, California would likely reject the transfer.
It MIGHT slip through the cracks.

Quote:
Plus it would simply be cheaper buying an actual Glock.
This.
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  #69  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:13 PM
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Kalifornistan is really messed up. It is the reason I have left, the reason that I will never return and a reason why I may renounce my American citizenship


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  #70  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:33 PM
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WAY off topic but...We need ďPapersĒ to do everything now, passports to fly domestically. Multiple forms of Id to buy a gun, home, car, etc. you must comply or be denied.

And I have a sneaky feeling they want to unarm us. I think something like that happened like 80 years ago. But who knows maybe Iím just paranoid.


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  #71  
Old 10-10-2018, 12:44 AM
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Seems pretty clear that there are no new changes that have been made to 32000 since 2013 it looks like, and that didn't redefine what one could manufacture. The main thing that affects this was the 2014 bill AB1964 that applied to semiautomatic firearms temporarily or permanently modified to only fire a single shot.

The new serial number law doesn't affect the safe handgun list law; to be safe when you build from an 80% lower, you should get apply to get your serial number from the DOJ before you finish your lower, and companies like 80percentarms will sell you a lower with all the legally required identifying info on an 80% AR lower, for example.

You can technically manufacture a bolt action AR pistol with a maglocked sled mag and at least a 6" barrel. The gray area would be if it is considered "manufacturing" to later convert it to semiauto. With regards to that point, has anyone ever been charged for manufacturing an unsafe handgun? Since there have been people successfully registering their from-80%, bullet button AR pistols built between 1/1/2015 and 7/1/2017, would that not confirm that those pistols were built legally?

Furthermore, I don't see any new language added to pc32000 by AB1964 saying you can't remove safety features from handguns. There's a Calguns thread on the modifying/removing safety features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Agreed - yes, you can.

Once you have purchased the gun, you can use after-market replacements of those parts just as you can use after-market grips, barrels and springs.

The main points of contention here would be if (a) the word "manufacture" actually applies to 80% lowers (the letter Calciferr received from the DOJ appears to intentionally mis-reference the phrase "self-manufacture" in pc32000) and (b) if a perfectly legal (under the 2014 updated SSE) single shot pistol later converted into a semiauto is considered "manufacture".

Another interesting point to consider is that in AB 857, they make a point to add "manufactures or assembles" as opposed to just "manufactures" in the text. That maybe could indicate that there is a distinction between assembling and manufacturing, and that converting a legal single shot to semiautomatic would fall under the former.

PC32000
Quote:
A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
AB 857
Quote:
This bill would, commencing July 1, 2018, and subject to exceptions, require a person who manufactures or assembles a firearm to first apply to the department for a unique serial number or other identifying mark, as provided.
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  #72  
Old 10-10-2018, 4:10 AM
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Fóg Kali libtards
I dabbled in making a single shot slam fire rifle gun several years ago. Project was never completed. Met all Kali standards for barrel length Neighbor reported me and I was slammed with a felony charge. Plead guilty to a misdemeanor. Probation etc canít possess firearms there for 5 years. That state is the worst in the world
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Old 10-10-2018, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post

Since the son is not a federally licensed 07FFL, and thus not a recognized manufacturer, California would likely reject the transfer.
It MIGHT slip through the cracks.
First, to clarify my post. My 80% frames are metal 2011 frames.

Would you please explain your thoughts and reasoning on why you think that CA might reject the transfer. What do you think they would cite as authority to reject the transfer. Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.
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Old 10-10-2018, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
First, to clarify my post. My 80% frames are metal 2011 frames.

Would you please explain your thoughts and reasoning on why you think that CA might reject the transfer. What do you think they would cite as authority to reject the transfer. Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.
Your son's engraving would not represent a recognized licensed manufacturer (or any 07FFL), and transfer of self-built in California is illegal.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
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  #75  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Your son's engraving would not represent a recognized licensed manufacturer (or any 07FFL)
True

Quote:
transfer of self-built in California is illegal.
I did a search of my Calif. Codes using the terms transfer|sale|sold|sell & self & built|assembled|manufactured and only had 8 hits, only one of which referred to firearms. That one section was Penal Code section 23685 witch refers to self-inflicted gunshot wounds. So is your response based on a regulation or am I not using the correct search terms? Thanks again.
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  #76  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:42 PM
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Cokebottle is correct, and I donít know the code but you cannot transfer 80%.




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  #77  
Old 10-11-2018, 4:51 AM
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Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought the transfer restriction was on 80%'s that have CA DOJ serial numbers assigned to them? Basically anything manufactured or registered after 7/1/18.
How could a firearm manufactured in another state be subject to CA law at the time of manufacture?

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...er=3.&article=
Quote:
Originally Posted by PC 29180
[snip](d) (1) The sale or transfer of ownership of a firearm manufactured or assembled pursuant to this section is prohibited.[snip]
If it has a self assigned serial that was registered prior to 7/1/18, the firearm is exempted from PC 29180.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC 29181
Section 29180 does not apply to or affect any of the following:[snip]
(c) A firearm which was entered into the centralized registry set forth in Section 11106 prior to July 1, 2018, as being owned by a specific individual or entity if that firearm has assigned to it a distinguishing number or mark of identification because the department accepted entry of that firearm into the centralized registry.[snip]
Sightly OT, but how could one move to CA with self manufactured firearms after 7/1/18? Are they going to require you apply for a CA DOJ serial number when you register as a new resident now?

While I don't disagree that the CA DOJ won't have a hissy fit, and would probably find a way to reject the transfer, I don't see where they disallowed interstate, intra-familiar, transfers of a self manufactured firearm.
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Old 10-11-2018, 7:02 AM
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Well, give it a try. We all want to know, but none of us are willing to lose our rights as gun owners.

Keep us updated please, you are only one of two going forward since July 1 that have actually said they were going to do it.


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Old 10-11-2018, 7:29 AM
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Aren't intrafamiliar transfers meant to go though the CA dealer?

That is where there may be issues with home made firearms
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Old 10-11-2018, 7:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpier View Post
Fóg Kali libtards
I dabbled in making a single shot slam fire rifle gun several years ago. Project was never completed. Met all Kali standards for barrel length Neighbor reported me and I was slammed with a felony charge. Plead guilty to a misdemeanor. Probation etc canít possess firearms there for 5 years. That state is the worst in the world
Uhhhh...
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