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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
View Poll Results: [2019] Your Favorite Firearm Training Groups in SoCal | |||
Falcon Operations Group | 2 | 3.45% | |
Firearms Training Associates | 4 | 6.90% | |
Phoenix Tactical Solutions | 15 | 25.86% | |
International Tactical Training Seminars | 18 | 31.03% | |
Tactical Advanced Combat | 2 | 3.45% | |
The Academy of Saint Crispian | 12 | 20.69% | |
Direct Action Group | 3 | 5.17% | |
Trident Concepts | 2 | 3.45% | |
5 Arrows Tactical Training | 1 | 1.72% | |
Aztec Training Services | 3 | 5.17% | |
Civilian Arms Training | 2 | 3.45% | |
Top Gun Training Center | 1 | 1.72% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll |
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[2019] Your Favorite Firearm Training Groups in SoCal - POLL OPEN!!!!
2019 POLL NOW OPEN!!
Hello everyone, looks like it's time for a new poll to follow up the one we did last year. The poll will be open from today October 30, 2019 to January 28, 2020. Again like last year, vote for your favorite or pick as many as you want and if you wish tell us why. I have eliminated the groups which got zero votes last time and have incorporated a couple training groups that are advertising on Calguns. Polls are limited to only 12 so 6 are left out but all 18 are listed below with website links. If anyone has suggestions or recommendations on how to make the list more relevant and up to date please comment. Here are the websites for the various training groups listed in no particular order: Older Polls 2018 Poll 2018 Top 3 1. 12 Votes: Phoenix Tactical Solutions (PTS) 2. 11 Votes: Tactical Advanced Combat (TAC-1) 3. 11 Votes: International Tactical Training Seminars (ITTS) 2013 Poll 2013 Top 3 1. 50 Votes: TASC (The Academy of Saint Crispian / Stan Lee) 2. 46 Votes: FOG (Falcon Operations Group) 3. 25 Votes: ITTS (International Tactical Training Seminars) 2012 Poll 2012 Top 3 1. 60 Votes: TASC (The Academy of Saint Crispian / Stan Lee) 2. 41 Votes: FOG (Falcon Operations Group) 3. 25 Votes: ITTS (International Tactical Training Seminars) After Action Reports by Calgunners American Tactical Shooting Instruction (#13 on poll) https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR Vogel Dynamics (#19 on poll) https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE Last edited by Maespinosa; 11-19-2019 at 10:27 AM.. |
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Nice poll and potential "sticky" reference for questions like, "What schools are out there?"
That said, how do we know that those giving reviews, etc. are competent to judge the quality of instruction? Analogy - a 4.5-star rating across 2,000 reviews for a sushi restaurant in Oakland. When I tried it??? Doesn't even deserve one star (My background - living in a city where Tsukiji is just a 30-min subway ride). .... Better yet, the plaza martial arts schools teaching the "cool" stuff, but most likely useless in a self-defense (real fight) scenario. Yeah - they've got the reviews, they've got the students, etc. but is it something you would bet on? Another case in point - if you look at Yelp, most of the schools in the SoCal region have 4.5 to 5-stars. Are they all REALLY that good? To the point of recommendations - wouldn't it be good if we come up with criteria for judging "quality"...? Stuff like,
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WEGC - Shooting at 10-yards VS 20-yards - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7mdbNZ4j9U |
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 |
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I should be OK, right? I am in the Competition and Training sub-forum... _ |
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I agree with you of course...most ratings/reviews are so subjective as to be of limited usefulness. I think the subjects you suggested would be useful, especially if the reviewer's training and shooting background was included. To borrow your Yelp analogy, I remember going to a pizza restaurant based on a 4.5 star rating and hundreds of reviews. The pizza was mediocre and in hindsight the reviews were based on the price point being lower than average and, as a result, the clientele being younger with less exposure to varying levels of pizza quality. In other words, I think knowing the experience and expertise of the reviewer is important. I'd love to see a dedicated AAR (After Action Report) subforum that required the information you suggested plus the reviewer's training CV. Maybe we should collaborate on a format and see if we can get it established. Here are a few of mine, in hindsight I barely provided enough of my own training CV: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=AAR Something else that would be useful is an easy way to see which traveling instructors are coming to California. I believe that the local trainers who post regularly have to register as vendors for a fee. That makes sense since they are regularly using the forum as a marketing tool, but for the out-of-state trainers who may only teach one or two courses here a year, a monthly investment in calguns may not make financial sense. I would assert that the local shooting community and shooting popularity here in general would be better served if we made it easier for calgunners to find those classes and made it more likely that those trainers would continue to teach here. The solution could be a "Visiting Training Courses" sub-forum that allows independent out-of-state trainers to post two class announcements a year without needing to take on a sponsorship. Training booking agencies such as Aztec (who bring in mostly out-of-state trainers) would be treated as as local training company, and would therefore remain subject to the usual sponsorship if they wanted to announce courses.
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-31-2019 at 1:31 PM.. |
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I would like to address rodralig's and Stumpfenhammer's comments regarding the poll. Rodralig: Thank you for your comments as they are always welcome. Similar discussion along the same vane as your questions/points came up in last year's poll as well. It seems that your post touched on two main ideas: 1. The merits of rating systems 2. Recommendations to make this poll better. 1. Rating Systems It is true and widely well known that reviews read on websites like Amazon or yelp can be done by people who are both very well informed and those that are not very well informed on the subject they are reviewing. We all know to take these reviews found on these sites with a grain of salt and choose to make up our own minds. However, the pitfalls in rating type systems or structures does not invalidate their usefulness wholesale. If a person sees a review for a particular item or service on one of these websites with thousands of reviewers all giving a 5 star review then it is highly likely that item or service will in fact be better than an item or service which received a 1 star review also by thousands or hundreds of reviewers. Now I know you maybe thinking of the dishonest practices of some Amazon or Yelp vendors which pay people for good reviews or extort businesses for good reviews. However, we have to remember, this is Calguns we wont have that problem here at least to a large extent. The problem with rating based systems/structures rests in the sample size of votes or reviews. A larger number of voting participants (sample size) will give you a better indication as to the usefulness of the poll itself. A small sample size could indeed be misleading. Therefore the fix to this is simple. Encourage people to participate in the poll and if they feel the need speak their mind on the subject by posting on this thread. Simple. The spirit of this poll at least if I can speak for Ramzar is more to create an awareness of what people's options are and to give them some insights as to which options might be best. Before participating in this thread I had no idea some training groups even existed. People of course should find out for themselves but that is absolutely the point here isnt it. Calguns should encrougage more people of all levels to get training and help give them options in one place that is easy to read. 2. Recommendations: Your recommendations are great and I agree with them. Some training groups will be stronger in certain areas than others. That is why in the original post people are encouraged to go into detail to help people understand. The current vBulletin 3.8.9 which Calguns runs on only allows polls with 12 entries. I am not sure how to fit this level of detail into a simple quick poll. Stumpfenhammer Also thank you for your comments. Its seems that your post touched on three main ideas: 1. The merits of rating systems 2. After Action Reports 3. Visiting Instructors 1. Rating Systems (See my comments to Rodralig since my feedback is the same) 2. After Action Reports Great Idea!! I had a similar thought process as well and it ties in Rodralig's recommendations. I can link those reports to this poll for those wanting more detailed info. 3. Visiting Instructors The original posts back in 2013 as well as last year's did include more traveling instructors. They however did not get any votes and I removed them from the poll. Visiting instructors are great and are perfect for the more experienced shooter that feels they need the next level of instruction. However, most of us have jobs, families, and busy schedules which take precedence over our shooting. Therefore our training class selection has to bend to our schedule and not the other way around. Then there is of course the issue of cost. Visiting instructors at least as far as I have seen are a more pricey option since they are a scarce commodity in the region they are visiting. If I can find a class on a weekend I am free and can afford it, I would take it. I would think most people would follow a similar decision making process especially people newer to shooting though I could be wrong. As was mentioned earlier this poll is meant to give people options and insight as to where to start. Thanks for the comments guys.
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE Last edited by Maespinosa; 11-01-2019 at 11:12 AM.. |
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I would like to post about Application Tactical. I took the 360 CCW class and truly feel like I got a lot of useful information and training. Things I never thought about (like the 911 call and what to say etc). They get my vote this year.
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Been going to PTS for years now. I always learn something new, or have a really good refresher on stuff I've forgotten.
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You left out Artemis and Artifex in OC.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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One thing I would look at is the curriculum for their BASIC course if it is chock full of many different skills instead of fundamentals then they really are not going to be that good of instructors as it is impossible to teach that many skills for a basic course.
An example below is from one of the web sites above for a 2 day basic course. Quote:
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
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Wow didnt know these guys existed. Nice. They are added to the list.
Thanks to tanks. Tanks are you voting for these two? I can add +1 vote to both.
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE |
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Ok, so is there a recommendation for a home defense course or anything like this stuff for NorCal?
I've got a friend with a wife, wants to get trained. Location is NorCal. Suggestions?
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Active Army 1976-1986, Army Reserve 2005-2015, Afghanistan 2010-2011 http://www.thepolemicist.net/2013/01...t-for-gun.html https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ “This decision is a freedom calculus decided long ago by Colonists who cherished individual freedom more than the subservient security of a British ruler. The freedom they fought for was not free of cost then, and it is not free now.” - Hon. Roger T. Benitez, United States District Judge, March 29, 2019 |
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I would NOT recommend a tactics class for an absolutely new shooter with little confidence in their weapons skills. I would suggest some of the NRA handgun saget classes and look around for a 1st time shooter handgun class for the women.
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
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Stan with Saint Crispian (TASC) was a very good experience. I took Handgun 101-404 (4 classes). I learned a lot and practice some of the weapons manipulations I learned when I can. I also plan to do the Rifle courses and M.O.U.T. in the shoothouse when I am local again. The classes also won't destroy your wallet in the process.
I know people are tentative about signing up for these classes and use these threads to filter certain organizations because they don't want to waste both their time, ammo and most importantly, their money. Stan's classes are priced so that it's not a massive loss if you personally don't learn anything from his classes. I will admit I got bored with some of the content and the pacing of the 101 class as it is meant to introduce new shooters and we had some new shooters with us. However, it's always good to have a refresh from time to time to make sure you are always following safety rules. Things started picking up in 202 and then went really in-depth and complex in the 303 and 404 courses. You can also consider that a private range @ Burro is $120 just to reserve it and then each guest has to pay their own fee above the first 4. Use of the private range is included in Stan's class and the class is cheaper than if you reserved it by yourself. You get to do a lot of movement drills which you can't do on static ranges.
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Sorry, guys, but TASC is down in LA, not what I would consider NorCal, unless they have classes up here.
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Active Army 1976-1986, Army Reserve 2005-2015, Afghanistan 2010-2011 http://www.thepolemicist.net/2013/01...t-for-gun.html https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ “This decision is a freedom calculus decided long ago by Colonists who cherished individual freedom more than the subservient security of a British ruler. The freedom they fought for was not free of cost then, and it is not free now.” - Hon. Roger T. Benitez, United States District Judge, March 29, 2019 |
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https://centrifugetraining.com/ is top-notch
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I am looking at their calendar and I only see one California class between now and July 2020. Am I reading that right? |
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That said, although, a sub-forum may sound good for providing visibility into visiting instructors, etc. there are, IMO, far few for it to be an active forum. I would think that this forum in itself could be suited to the need (just need to have CalGunners post if they know anything, ie., like Rob Leatham/Larry Vickers' class in Janauary). Quote:
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PTS 5-Stars
My vote goes to PTS. PTS provides fantastic training for beginners and advanced shooters alike. Whether it is handgun, rifle, or shotgun, the instructors provide great personalized training. I have taken friends and family to PTS and everyone had a “blast!” :-P
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Bill Rapier / AMTAC is delivering a LOW-LIGHT TACTICS course (I believe at Burro Canyon just north of Los Angeles) December 12-13 (Thursday-Friday). https://www.amtacshooting.com
For those of you who have tried with no luck to get into Kyle Defoor's perpetually sold-out courses, I've been to both and they are on par (Bill was 16 years in DevGru).
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 |
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Agreed. I only realized after I started the poll. I will remove FOG for the next poll. I will add Academi to the list. Are you voting for Academi?
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE |
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Nope, I voted for ITTS, but I'm just curious about Academi.
I haven't trained with anyone on the list besides ITTS, but I've been to Aegis in San Diego (they were ok--seems like a shadow of what they once were), and John Lovell (Warrior Poet)--he's excellent, but is rarely out here. |
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@ PTS salting the poll and commentary with a couple zombie calgunners back from the grave..
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Last post prior to this was in 2014. Only other posts were for gun sales.
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 12-13-2019 at 10:44 AM.. |
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i mean "winning" this poll can lead to some extra students, but as a whole, does it really matter in the end? this is a "your favorite trainers" poll, not a "who is the best socal training outfit" poll. winning popularity contest doesn't mean they are the best training group. i mean if haley strategic did a visit class here, but didn't "win" the poll would any of us blow off getting a chance to get taught by the haley guys? nope, many would jump at the chance to get trained by them.
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Regardless of possible vote stacking, people need to see for themselves and get out to train before California follows Virginia which now wants to classify firearm training as a "Paramilitary Activity" and therefore a felony. Interesting read: https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/leg...e?201+ful+SB64
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE |
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Sorry OCEquestrian- NO ZOMBIE HERE
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Anyone else who is reading this post, please know that OCEquestrian is simply a hater trying to talk down a legit, fantastic training company. You can feel free to ignore his future posts as they are simply unreliable and obviously garbage. Thank you and happy training! PS-OCEquestrian, I would gladly meet you and show you the skills that I have learned at PTS. Classes are held every Saturday and when you see that the training and I are legit, you can apologize and remove your post. Thx |
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Nice job C-Bee for getting your family out to train. Trying to get any family to do that at the same time can be like herding cats.
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----------------------------------------------------- New Calguns Poll Posted!! Vote for your favorite Firearm Training Organization in Southern California HERE |
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I tried a raft of Southern California schools and decided on Phoenix because of the emphasis on safety, the small class size and individual instruction, the value, and the versatility of instruction. Everyone out there teaches the same fundamentals. Maani Golesorkhi takes it a step further by constructing drills that combine the various skills learned in new ways. That keeps the classes from becoming stale for people who've been attending for a while.
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