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Old 12-20-2022, 9:31 PM
SinisterSilverado SinisterSilverado is offline
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Default Weird c&r listing

I'm not sure how vague I should be.
I was looking at a popular gun auction site. I came across a new 2022 colt gold gup that the seller lists he will ship as a c&r gun to California, if the FFL dealer will accept it.
I'm not as familiar as I should be with c&r laws, but I wouldn't think that gun would meet the criteria. I know there's a value from rarity clause, but I wouldn't think that would fall into that category.
I guess I should get to my question. Is this legal, or something that will raise red flags?
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Old 12-21-2022, 7:02 AM
CalifEd CalifEd is offline
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I have to show, to the FFL's satisfaction, that the incoming pistol meets the C&R rules.
I do my own verification on dates and other qualifications but I do not rely on the sellers word.
As far as the unique/rare criteria I think there has to be some recognized authority, like a museum, willing to provide their agreement.
I haven't had a problem but would guess that if the FFL did transfer it to me (a C&R/COE holder) and it turned out not to qualify, the DOJ would require I surrender it or sell it out of state, similar to a non-roster pistol being sold.
Also, I'm sure the FFL would have some splain' to do with the powers that be.
As for this 2022 Gold Cup, ask the seller how they come to their conclusion.
Once you get some info, call around and ask the FFL if they would accept the pistol with the documentation you have.
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Old 12-21-2022, 7:16 AM
Nardo1895 Nardo1895 is offline
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Some claim that the Colt Gold Cup National Match is specifically listed on ATF's list of C&R firearms. To my knowledge, ATF generally lists specific firearms that don't already meet the "older than 50 years" criteria, although some of the specifically listed hand guns do meet that criteria. Said another way; 50 year old firearms are automatically C&R and ATF has a list of C&R firearms than may not meet that 50 year criteria that are also C&R. Here are ATF's three criteria for qualifying as a C&R.

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Note that there there is a process for ATF to review and approve recognizing a firearm as C&R under criteria 2 and 3.

You can find the full description as well as the C&R listing here:

I believe people are relying on the listing at the top of Page 7 of the C&R List which says "Colt, National Match semiautomatic pistols, all S/Ns, in original configuration". I have heard that ATF and DOJ have claimed its not a C&R unless it also meets the 50 year old criteria.

My opinion - If its on the list it doesn't have to be 50 years old. However, is a Gold Cup National Match the same as a National Match? There are pre-Gold Cup National Match Colts, as well as Colts that were conditioned by the military as National Match pistols. I think DOJ/ATF are trying to say the Gold Cup isn't that same pistol and therefor isn't C&R unless its also 50 years old. Some FFLs appear to agree with ATF/DOJ, some don't, and I think some don't want the hassle even though they think its probably legal.

That's a risk you (and your FFL) need to decide if its worth taking. I have seen less than 50 year old Gold Cups for sale in CA as C&Rs, but that in itself doesn't mean its legal or hassle free. I had a customer who wanted one. I suggested he keep shopping and find one that was 50 years old. I didn't tell him no, I would not transfer it, but I strongly suggested we should both try and avoid that hassle. He found a 50 year old version so I never had to make the decision whether or not I'd be willing to transfer it. The second amendment side of me said yes, but the business side of me said its not worth the hassle/risk for a small transfer fee.

You might also want to ask your question on the C&R subforum. I suspect you'll get the full gambit of opinions there.
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Old 12-21-2022, 2:09 PM
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Quiet Quiet is offline
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What is listed by the BATFE as a C&R:
Colt, National Match semiautomatic pistols, all S/Ns, in original configuration.

The Colt National Match has different markings than the Colt Gold Cup National Match.

The current production Colt Gold Cup National Match is a different pistol than what is listed.

What some CA FFL dealers did in the past was to not include the Gold Cup designation and process it as a C&R exempt pistol due to the Colt National Match listing.

Previous thread on this topic

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

Last edited by Quiet; 12-21-2022 at 2:16 PM..
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Old 12-21-2022, 6:16 PM
SinisterSilverado SinisterSilverado is offline
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Thanks for the information. That's a little too far from the grey for me.
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