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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #2281  
Old 05-26-2022, 6:17 PM
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How could you forget (toxic) masculinity being a mental health problem?!??! It's even listed.... You made it in 1.
Yes, that also fits in the chain reasoning as well as being lighter than a duck.
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  #2282  
Old 05-26-2022, 10:19 PM
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I think an Equal Protection challenge would have to identify a disadvantaged class of people. For example, if NY was granting permits to white applicants but not black applicants. I don't think there's anything in the record that would provide a basis for that (or other protected class such as sex or religion), so I don't think there is any way for the court to grant relief to the plaintiffs on the basis of Equal Protection. I would not be surprised if some of the opinions include something in their discussion of the history of gun control referencing the fact that many gun control restrictions were aimed at keeping the newly freed slaves from being armed, but that would not amount to an Equal Protection challenge to this current NY statute.
Organizations representing all those groups filed amicus briefs asserting that NY’s law as implemented deliberately discriminated against their demographic group in favor of wealthy, politically-connected elites. There are many landmark cases where SCOTUS cites an amicus brief in their opinion. This is true even if the parties to the case didn’t address that issue specifically.

They wouldn’t allow amicus briefs if they were limiting their analysis to arguments briefed by the parties. That is relevant at the District court level. Many landmark rulings deviate significantly from what was discussed in the initial trial.

Look at NAACP vs. Claiborne Hardware. The NAACP kept losing until the end of the appeals process. The Constitutional and Common Law issues changed quite a bit as it moved up the various court levels. The hardware store initially won its tort claim in state court.
  #2283  
Old 05-27-2022, 7:29 AM
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It could affect cases that are being held, but I don't think it'll change this opinion much or at all.
Agreed. They aren't going to emotionally respond by changing legal opinions.

We already know where the leftist zealot judges will rule so those sure aren't changing.
  #2284  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Foothills View Post
Organizations representing all those groups filed amicus briefs asserting that NY’s law as implemented deliberately discriminated against their demographic group in favor of wealthy, politically-connected elites. There are many landmark cases where SCOTUS cites an amicus brief in their opinion. This is true even if the parties to the case didn’t address that issue specifically.

They wouldn’t allow amicus briefs if they were limiting their analysis to arguments briefed by the parties. That is relevant at the District court level. Many landmark rulings deviate significantly from what was discussed in the initial trial.

Look at NAACP vs. Claiborne Hardware. The NAACP kept losing until the end of the appeals process. The Constitutional and Common Law issues changed quite a bit as it moved up the various court levels. The hardware store initially won its tort claim in state court.
The law changing is one thing, but an equal protection claim must rely on evidence in the record. That claim not having been asserted, there s no evidence to support it now.
  #2285  
Old 05-27-2022, 8:41 PM
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I have read everything out there and in my opinion it won't stop at red flag laws.
  #2286  
Old 05-29-2022, 7:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
States are free to enact red flag laws. Why do we need a federal law that merely duplicates those laws? Do we really want the federal courts to be in the business of adjudicating these claims/cases? As it is, most federal courts (and the federal district trial courts) have more business than they can handle. I have two cases where it is takes a year from the completion of briefing on a motion to get a decision from the judge. Yet pols want trial courts/magistrates to have trials in these cases within a few weeks of the issuance of a TRO? The system cannot handle the extra work without falling hopelessly behind, an issue that raises serious issues of due process.
Camel's nose under the tent is what they want. Merely making a few states this way isn't good enough for them.
This is aside from the obvious question on whether red flag laws pass any constitutional muster at all.
  #2287  
Old 05-29-2022, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
States are free to enact red flag laws. Why do we need a federal law that merely duplicates those laws? Do we really want the federal courts to be in the business of adjudicating these claims/cases? As it is, most federal courts (and the federal district trial courts) have more business than they can handle. I have two cases where it is takes a year from the completion of briefing on a motion to get a decision from the judge. Yet pols want trial courts/magistrates to have trials in these cases within a few weeks of the issuance of a TRO? The system cannot handle the extra work without falling hopelessly behind, an issue that raises serious issues of due process.
BOLDED .... Only because no one, has as of yet told them they can't.

Bottom line, for all the obsfucatory rhetoric, a RFL for all its supposed "protect the children" bovine excrement justification. Is nothing more than a de facto;

Denial of Rights, and punitive action, for a possible future criminal act.


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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
"Probable Cause" requires more than "Reasonable Suspicion". But RFLs give the power to the state to use RS as the basis for seizures of property.

Probable Cause requires evidence that a person HAS or IS, committed or committing a criminal act. NOT that they MIGHT sometime in the future commit a criminal act.

WHAT NEXT? All male children must be put to death at birth. Because they might sometime in the future commit a rape.
  #2288  
Old 05-29-2022, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
BOLDED .... Only because no one, has as of yet told them they can't.

...
Actually, the State of Oklahoma said that they can't and the Constitution of the Great State of Idaho makes in close to impossible. Art. I, Sec 11 states in part, "Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony."
  #2289  
Old 05-30-2022, 5:06 PM
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Are they releasing any opinions tomorrow?
  #2290  
Old 05-30-2022, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by homelessdude View Post
Are they releasing any opinions tomorrow?
Nothing is scheduled currently.

Last edited by abinsinia; 05-30-2022 at 5:23 PM..
  #2291  
Old 05-31-2022, 5:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
Actually, the State of Oklahoma said that they can't and the Constitution of the Great State of Idaho makes in close to impossible. Art. I, Sec 11 states in part, "Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony."
Could they then make an RFL stating that possession of a firearm by a "Prohibited Person" (including the subject of a restraining order) is a felony? At that point, the firearm would be being "used in the commission of a felony". I suppose that it comes down to what "used" means.
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  #2292  
Old 05-31-2022, 6:03 AM
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Not today!

Less than 4 weeks to go!



Currently the remaining dates for releasing opinions are:

June 06, 13, 21, 27

NB The Court can always add Opinion days anytime it wishes.
  #2293  
Old 05-31-2022, 7:15 AM
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Thank you. I wasn't sure how the holiday effected things.
  #2294  
Old 05-31-2022, 10:54 AM
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While it would be poetic for a June 6th decision.. I'm putting my money on June 27th, the last day...

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  #2295  
Old 05-31-2022, 11:22 AM
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The day after all the Justices have their CCW guns strapped up! and are on vacation (after the 24th).

Blue opinion order list days in June are 6th, 13th, 21st and 27th...I think the Dobbs v Jackson WHO order will be released last or with the NYSRPA v. Bruen order.
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  #2296  
Old 05-31-2022, 12:17 PM
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I’m still voting for after the 27th.
The Heller opinion was released on a Thursday.
  #2297  
Old 05-31-2022, 6:07 PM
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I know I’m a broken record but we all need to stop living our lives based on what Marxist usurpers in DC and 9 people in black robes tell us what’s “ok”.
  #2298  
Old 05-31-2022, 6:41 PM
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I know I’m a broken record but we all need to stop living our lives based on what Marxist usurpers in DC and 9 people in black robes tell us what’s “ok”.
Seriously. The biggest argument against abortion laws is they will just do it anyways. Maybe gun owners should adopt the same stance.
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  #2299  
Old 05-31-2022, 6:49 PM
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I know I’m a broken record but we all need to stop living our lives based on what Marxist usurpers in DC and 9 people in black robes tell us what’s “ok”.
We are doing what a lot of people with guns who follow their orders tell us what’s ok. That’s how it is.
  #2300  
Old 05-31-2022, 7:36 PM
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Rampant speculation from Volokh Conspiracy here, but at least kind of on topic. The court is way behind on releasing opinions, perhaps we wont have an answer by July 1st, afterall.
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  #2301  
Old 05-31-2022, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
...The court is way behind on releasing opinions, perhaps we wont have an answer by July 1st, afterall.
I'm not going to predict the date but I will predict that BRUEN and the abortion decision come out on the same date. The left only has 24 hours a day to run around with their hair on fire, and releasing both on the same day means they will have to split their time.
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  #2302  
Old 06-01-2022, 6:55 AM
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Seriously. The biggest argument against abortion laws is they will just do it anyways. Maybe gun owners should adopt the same stance.
Gun owners need to quit being so eager to do as their are told. Too many will proudly proclaim that they “follow the law”, like a bunch of regulatory compliance enthusiasts.
  #2303  
Old 06-01-2022, 7:38 AM
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Tell that to the judge and see if he thinks it's a good idea. Smart people always follow the law on the Internet.
  #2304  
Old 06-01-2022, 9:02 AM
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Gun owners need to quit being so eager to do as their are told. Too many will proudly proclaim that they “follow the law”, like a bunch of regulatory compliance enthusiasts.
Here's how that shakes out; as Patriots, we support our government and our laws. As Citizens, we support our society and our laws. As individuals we support each other and our laws.

Failure to do those things means we're neither Patriots or Citizens and are instead anarchists attempting to create chaos and overthrow our government and society.

So, which are you?
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  #2305  
Old 06-01-2022, 10:09 AM
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I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!



Less than 30 days to go!

  #2306  
Old 06-01-2022, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by lastinline View Post
Gun owners need to quit being so eager to do as their are told. Too many will proudly proclaim that they “follow the law”, like a bunch of regulatory compliance enthusiasts.
And on an open forum you would expect gun owners to admit to committing possible felonies by exercising their rights?
Sometimes people admit to following the law, because to do otherwise would draw attention their way.

There are many on here who exercise their rights the way they see fit without commenting opening.
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Old 06-02-2022, 9:04 AM
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Monday the 6th just flipped from Light Blue to Yellow! Opinions incoming!

  #2308  
Old 06-02-2022, 9:19 AM
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Here's how that shakes out; as Patriots, we support our government and our laws. As Citizens, we support our society and our laws. As individuals we support each other and our laws.

Failure to do those things means we're neither Patriots or Citizens and are instead anarchists attempting to create chaos and overthrow our government and society.

So, which are you?
By any of your definitions, none of the above. Just because one doesn’t support laws or government does not make them an anarchist; how many here support all these gun laws that government has imposed? How many here grudgingly follow, to the minimal amount possible, these gun laws, to keep the wolves at bay?….IMO, by your definition, the early American folks who rebelled against the British government were then not patriots, as they neither supported British laws or government.
Hopefully, this much anticipated ruling from SCOTUS will start things on a better path, but I’m not counting on it. We will see.
  #2309  
Old 06-02-2022, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lastinline View Post
By any of your definitions, none of the above. Just because one doesn’t support laws or government does not make them an anarchist; how many here support all these gun laws that government has imposed? How many here grudgingly follow, to the minimal amount possible, these gun laws, to keep the wolves at bay?….IMO, by your definition, the early American folks who rebelled against the British government were then not patriots, as they neither supported British laws or government.
Hopefully, this much anticipated ruling from SCOTUS will start things on a better path, but I’m not counting on it. We will see.
Ummn, all of us?

We don't have to agree with the law, but it is the law and we will work within the law to change it.

Unlike the anarchists who engage in civil disobedience, which is also known as criminal behavior and is something I do not support. I'm fairly certain that most here don't support as well. Since I'm a lawyer, I also can't advocate that anyone violate the law no matter how strongly they disagree with it.

As for the colonists; had the outcome gone the other way, they'd have all been hanged or shot as traitors. So, whether you're a patriot or a traitor depends on lot on who gets to write that chapter in history. Hanging all your hopes and future plans on wishful thinking is also one of those "last resort" kind of things which, at that time in our history, was all the colonists had left after England refused to obey its own laws. When your back is against the wall in that type of situation, there is no law to obey.
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  #2310  
Old 06-02-2022, 9:22 PM
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Reuters just put out this politically biased piece

https://apple.news/AzflxSY-DTMa-zxbhpUpN0g
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Old 06-02-2022, 9:37 PM
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I pray that J. Thomas is furiously rewriting drafts that are stricter and stricter against the Govt. for each time they bleat that they are going to take the guns away, in the last two weeks.

If nothing else, the idiot grabbers are going full retard when there is an active case at SCOTUS that could smack them down forever.
  #2312  
Old 06-02-2022, 11:14 PM
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I pray that J. Thomas is furiously rewriting drafts that are stricter and stricter against the Govt. for each time they bleat that they are going to take the guns away, in the last two weeks.
Agreed. Specifically, I hope they are trying to foresee and forestall many of the next round of obstructions which will focus on where you can carry and making it increasingly difficult, time consuming, and expensive to get a permit. As I've said before, as long as permits are required, CA will find a way to deny them. The only way we really get our rights is for SCOTUS to define a form a carry where a permit cannot be required, along with some strict and clear limits on the restrictions that can be placed on carry locations. CA will quickly try something like NY is already trying here. It's worth a read to glimpse our future:

https://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?de...Votes=Y#A08684

It applies to the state as a whole, but imagine the effect in NYC. Unless you are one of the very few wealthy individuals in the city who owns a car, you can't carry for self defense, or even transport it home from the initial purchase or to or from a gunsmith or a range unless it is walking distance. Nor can anyone take it anywhere 14 or more could conceivably be either before or after you get there. You can't ever take it out of the city hunting or somewhere where you can train or shoot. All of this applies, even if you DO somehow have a permit. The practical effect is close to a complete ban.
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  #2313  
Old 06-03-2022, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Rampant speculation from Volokh Conspiracy here, but at least kind of on topic. The court is way behind on releasing opinions, perhaps we wont have an answer by July 1st, afterall.
What accounts for the delay? Perhaps the Court is still somewhat slowed by Covid. Perhaps justices and their clerks have been diverted by the high volume of applications and orders on the "shadow docket." Perhaps the high number of contentious high-profile cases has slowed things down. Some have speculated that the recent mass shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde prompted rewrites in the much-awaited gun rights case. Perhaps there are shifting coalitions in one or more cases that kept them from being issued.
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Old 06-03-2022, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Rampant speculation from Volokh Conspiracy here, but at least kind of on topic. The court is way behind on releasing opinions, perhaps we wont have an answer by July 1st, afterall.
Oral arguments in Jackson were Dec 1. The leak indicated the opinion was written in February. Oral arguments in Bruen were Nov 3rd (I think), a month earlier. I would guess the opinion is a done deal at this point.
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Old 06-03-2022, 5:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
I pray that J. Thomas is furiously rewriting drafts that are stricter and stricter against the Govt. for each time they bleat that they are going to take the guns away, in the last two weeks.

If nothing else, the idiot grabbers are going full retard when there is an active case at SCOTUS that could smack them down forever.
My fear is that many of the lower courts will ignore Bruen the way they ignored Heller. With many judges, they have already decided the gun control law will stand and and it’s just a matter of crafting an opinion to justify their decision. I’m fully expecting Jim Crow type laws in blue states.
This will require SCOTUS taking cases and striking down laws that infringe. However, Alito and Thomas are both in their 70’s. Lose just 1 and we essentially have a 4-1-3 split on the court, which would require Roberts to defend the 2A, something he has been unwilling to do since Heller. I could see long term vacancies in the future if the president’s party doesn’t control the Senate
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Old 06-03-2022, 6:24 AM
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My fear is that many of the lower courts will ignore Bruen the way they ignored Heller. With many judges, they have already decided the gun control law will stand and and it’s just a matter of crafting an opinion to justify their decision.
We here in California would be back to business as usual, with an uptick in anti-gun laws being enacted. This will be a very strong test case to see what the lower courts will get away with, or what they are willing to try, despite what SCOTUS says. If those lower courts do pull shenanigans, and the various L.E. agencies go ahead and enforce, it will really convince me that the so-called “rule of law” for our society is meaningless, total BS, and all the lawyers in the world aren’t worth a hill of dog crap to do anything about it, because they continue to work within the system they so proudly uphold. At that point, they will have proven the constitution meaningless, insofar as the 2A goes, and it will truly be every man for himself, defined by the limits of the risks he is willing to take. We are just about there already, and this case will fully establish that one way or the other.
  #2317  
Old 06-03-2022, 7:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
I pray that J. Thomas OR J. Barrett is furiously rewriting drafts that are stricter and stricter against the Govt. for each time they bleat that they are going to take the guns away, in the last two weeks.

If nothing else, the idiot grabbers are going full retard when there is an active case at SCOTUS that could smack them down forever.
Corrected.

We don't know 100% for certain yet who will write the Majority opinion.

=8-|
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Old 06-03-2022, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Corrected.

We don't know 100% for certain yet who will write the Majority opinion.

=8-|
True, however given that this is something Thomas seems passionate about and given that he is close to retirement and Alito appears (but who knows) to be writing the opinion in Jackson, I have to think it’s Thomas. I have to believe that if you are an associate justice and you raise your hand and volunteer, Robert’s isn’t going to say “no”.
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Old 06-03-2022, 9:35 AM
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^ You also forgot that he wants to get back at Biden for the shenanigans at his conformation hearing. This has been simmering for 30 years, and now it’s payback time.
  #2320  
Old 06-03-2022, 10:08 AM
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Bloomberg has 33 cases yet to be released, there are only 18 business days overall left in June.
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