Do sellers need RealID for PPT?

[jok5tr]

I was at Sportsman's Warehouse yesterday as the buyer, and we were turned away because the seller's driver's license said "Federal Limits Apply" and did not have another form of proof of lawful presence. I know that this is a requirement for buyers, but does it really apply to sellers as well?

[kemasa]

Not really, but would if the buyer is denied.

Update: I asked and was told that the same ID requirements apply to the seller as the buyer. It doesn't make sense to me since the seller doesn't have the same residency requirements with respect to documents.

[Spaffo]

Another reason to only PPT at a "no drama" FFL that doesn't make up more bs hoops to jump through.

[Master_Prestige]

That’s unfortunate. Even the greenhorns at Ammo bro’s and Turners know better than that.

[9mmContagion]

Heard it at a local FFL as well.. the guy was actually looking to just sell the gun to the shop and they turned him away for having FLA license. Seems dumb to me, since usually CA doesn’t care who’s selling, so long as it was never a stolen gun. One less store to do business with!

[ShooterDK]

I ran into this this past summer. I was trying to buy a CZ75-B from a seller. We met at a FFL in West Sacramento. That no transfers any more as shop was going to close shop. We went River City to do transfer. They said no go as seller had old ID. The seller had to drive back to Davis to get his passport. We agreed to meet up at Sportsman's Warehouse in Stockton. They told us the other shop was full of it. No seller did not need Real ID to do transfer. Processed the PPT. What a pain...

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by Master_Prestige

That’s unfortunate. Even the greenhorns at Ammo bro’s and Turners know better than that.

I am amazed Turner's does not require real ID from the seller.

[lexo98]

I was recently at Bass Pro as a buyer and they would not do the ppt because the seller had a PO Box address. They said because if I failed dros and he didn’t have the proper verified info available they would not be able to give him the firearms back. Maybe this was their reasoning.

[1681]

Originally Posted by 9mmContagion

Heard it at a local FFL as well.. the guy was actually looking to just sell the gun to the shop and they turned him away for having FLA license. Seems dumb to me, since usually CA doesn’t care who’s selling, so long as it was never a stolen gun. One less store to do business with!

That FFL deserves to be out of business for being dumb. All they had to do was to buy the gun from the seller and hold it for 30 days to make sure it's not stolen.

[1681]

Originally Posted by lexo98

I was recently at Bass Pro as a buyer and they would not do the ppt because the seller had a PO Box address. They said because if I failed dros and he didn’t have the proper verified info available they would not be able to give him the firearms back. Maybe this was their reasoning.

It's ironic that the big box stores like Bass Pro, Turner's, Ammo Bros, etc.. love to make up their own BS policies to make it harder for people to exercise their 2A rights.

[1681]

Originally Posted by I Swan

I am amazed Turner's does not require real ID from the seller.

Avoid Turner's, Ammo Bros, Bass Pro, Rifle Gear, etc.. like the plague when it comes to PPT.

They care more about protecting their own asses than protecting 2A rights with their BS policies.

[Eddy's Shooting Sports]

Originally Posted by 1681

Avoid Turner's, Ammo Bros, Bass Pro, Rifle Gear, etc.. like the plague when it comes to PPT.

They care more about protecting their own asses than protecting 2A rights with their BS policies.

It’s hard to blame them. There’s not a business in the world that likes having the price of their services dictated to them by the state....

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by 1681

Avoid Turner's, Ammo Bros, Bass Pro, Rifle Gear, etc.. like the plague when it comes to PPT.

They care more about protecting their own asses than protecting 2A rights with their BS policies.

What does Riflegear pull during PPT? I can't imagine subjecting myself to a PPT at Bass Pro.

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports

It’s hard to blame them. There’s not a business in the world that likes having the price of their services dictated to them by the state....

Nor do buyers and sellers like being forced to have to do a PPT in the first place. So if a FFL makes it harder than need be and scowls and has attitude guess where I won't be giving my large amount of non PPT business to?

It really does not need to take that long if you have a prepared buyer and seller and at a non peak time. I've done PPT's that take less than 10 minutes. It's also not super uncommon for me to give added business at a PPT at a place I normally don't go to.

My last one I spent $80 extra I know it wasn't much but was junk bin stuff the FFL got for free.

[Eddy's Shooting Sports]

Originally Posted by I Swan

Nor do buyers and sellers like being forced to have to do a PPT in the first place. So if a FFL makes it harder than need be and scowls and has attitude guess where I won't be giving my large amount of non PPT business to?

It really does not need to take that long if you have a prepared buyer and seller and at a non peak time. I've done PPT's that take less than 10 minutes. It's also not super uncommon for me to give added business at a PPT at a place I normally don't go to.

My last one I spent $80 extra I know it wasn't much but was junk bin stuff the FFL got for free.

I agree that dealers should not even need to be in the loop. Now that DOJ has a built a somewhat robust version of CFARS, there is no reason why they couldn't add a PPT functionality where the parties enter their info and the seller holds the gun until an approval is received. The only drawback is that if the seller is prohibited, the gun is still in their possession and DOJ would have to send their APPS goons after them. I'm guessing the statistics of denied sellers is minuscule though.

As for PPT buyers and sellers giving business to the FFL, this is sometimes the case and it is always appreciated, but more often than not, it is two sellers that come in and the FFL just happens to be an equidistant location for the two parties to meet. They rarely buy anything and often come in during peak hours with an entitled attitude that the FFL must under any circumstances do their PPT.

Hopefully someday one of the 2A organizations or even better, the NSSF, will push the DOJ to enact a more appropriate PPT method.

[kingransom]

Turner's Oxnard did this to my friend 2 weeks ago on Anderson lowers as a buyer. He paid for the Lowers and dros then they refused to run the dros until he returned with a certified birth cert which he had to spend extra money to order. They wouldn't accept his DMV reg or utility bill. Also refused to refund entire purchase so he was forced to spend Xtra $ to keep it moving forward. Just one additional reason I have boycotted Turner's for at least 7 years now. 80%of my many previous experiences with them have resulted in a complete hassle and hours wasted standing in the store waiting.

[9mmContagion]

Originally Posted by kingransom

Turner's Oxnard did this to my friend 2 weeks ago on Anderson lowers as a buyer. He paid for the Lowers and dros then they refused to run the dros until he returned with a certified birth cert which he had to spend extra money to order. They wouldn't accept his DMV reg or utility bill. Also refused to refund entire purchase so he was forced to spend Xtra $ to keep it moving forward. Just one additional reason I have boycotted Turner's for at least 7 years now. 80%of my many previous experiences with them have resulted in a complete hassle and hours wasted standing in the store waiting.

FWIW, as a buyer with “Federal Limits Apply,” you must have a birth certificate or passport to accompany the ID. That’s any FFL, not just Turners. The whole no refund thing is BS, and he should have never paid for DROS if they weren’t going to run it

[kingransom]

They didn't tell him that the i.d. was an issue until after he had paid. Very deceptive business practice. Thanks for clarifying the other part of it..

[TJW]

I was at Turner's just 2 weeks ago asking what I need as seller, they require a CA Real ID, U.S. Passport, or U.S. Birth Certificate. They will not accept a "Federal Limits Apply" CA Driver's License.

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports

I agree that dealers should not even need to be in the loop. Now that DOJ has a built a somewhat robust version of CFARS, there is no reason why they couldn't add a PPT functionality where the parties enter their info and the seller holds the gun until an approval is received. The only drawback is that if the seller is prohibited, the gun is still in their possession and DOJ would have to send their APPS goons after them. I'm guessing the statistics of denied sellers is minuscule though.

As for PPT buyers and sellers giving business to the FFL, this is sometimes the case and it is always appreciated, but more often than not, it is two sellers that come in and the FFL just happens to be an equidistant location for the two parties to meet. They rarely buy anything and often come in during peak hours with an entitled attitude that the FFL must under any circumstances do their PPT.

Hopefully someday one of the 2A organizations or even better, the NSSF, will push the DOJ to enact a more appropriate PPT method.

I can't speak for other people but I generally make buyers and some sellers come to me not some random FFL I rarely go to. Due to too many CGN flakes. Not going to be out so much time and gas if they flake.

I also almost always do at non peak time and will buy what I can. I do realize many don't have the courtesy to do so.

You never know. One FFL sold a $4500 gun to my PPT buyer that he had no idea the shop had until I told them to take it out from the back and show it to him. They knew we were serious no nonsense gun collectors.

[tbc]

Originally Posted by I Swan

What does Riflegear pull during PPT?

Riflegear also requires real ID from seller. I was the seller with FLA DL and was denied by them.

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by tbc

Riflegear also requires real ID from seller. I was the seller with FLA DL and was denied by them.

Lame. Probably an attempt to discourage PPT. Although there is always the issue of having a policy addressing what to do if the buyer is denied on a PPT and the seller can't DROS it back to themselves.

But would be fairly simple just to tell them to bring the proper documentation with their federal limits ID if they need to DROS it back to themselves.

[1681]

Originally Posted by I Swan

Lame. Probably an attempt to discourage PPT. Although there is always the issue of having a policy addressing what to do if the buyer is denied on a PPT and the seller can't DROS it back to themselves.

But would be fairly simple just to tell them to bring the proper documentation with their federal limits ID if they need to DROS it back to themselves.

This is just another BS policy made up by Riflegear, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry with some authority to confuse uninformed gun owners with more of their crap.

It's ironic that many of these so-called experts are our worst enemies when it comes to 2A rights.

The ATF only requires FFLs to collect SELLER's name and address, and CA PC section 28060 only requires FFLs to record:

(1) The name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm.

(2) Whether or not the person is a personal firearm importer.

per CA PC section 28250:

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the
purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the
dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm.

per CA DOJ's policy, a SELLER's background check is only required when a firearm is returned to SELLER after (30) 24 hours periods of the delivery/return period, or if the DROS is cancelled.

The purchaser from a Private Party transaction was denied, how can I request the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) to return the firearm to the seller?

The NTN for a seller will only be provided when the purchaser from a Private Party transaction has a status of "Undetermined," "Rejected," or "Denied" associated with the background of that particular DROS transaction. The dealer must contact the Customer Support Center at (855) 365-3767 for assistance to request the NTN number by providing the associated transactions DROS number and verifying the purchasers first and last name. If the corresponding DROS transaction is cancelled, or past the 30 24-hour delivery/return period, the associated seller NTN will no longer be valid, and the firearm will need to be DROSed back to the seller as a Return to Owner DROS transaction.

and currently there's no CA Penal Code that requires a SELLER to provide a valid picture ID or driver license, let alone a REAL ID to SELL a firearm.

[1681]

Originally Posted by TJW

I was at Turner's just 2 weeks ago asking what I need as seller, they require a CA Real ID, U.S. Passport, or U.S. Birth Certificate. They will not accept a "Federal Limits Apply" CA Driver's License.

Turner's is another gun store that I will not go to for any business. They act like some quasi government agency with their BS policies and "expert" attitudes, or act like they're doing gun owners a favor with their business.

and most of these so-called experts are the store assist. managers or managers themselves, which then will trickle down to the staff who will mirror their bosses' behaviors.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 1681

...
and currently there's no CA Penal Code that requires a SELLER to provide a valid picture ID or driver license, let alone a REAL ID to SELL a firearm.

Really? Perhap you want to look a bit more with respect to the requirements for a CA PPT.

Ignoring the reality of the FFL and making comments against them will only cause more problems, but feel free to get a FFL and show everyone how it shouldn't be done and hopefully as you learn, your opinion won't be changed.

[1681]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Really? Perhap you want to look a bit more with respect to the requirements for a CA PPT.

Ignoring the reality of the FFL and making comments against them will only cause more problems, but feel free to get a FFL and show everyone how it shouldn't be done and hopefully as you learn, your opinion won't be changed.

sounds like you know more about CA gun laws so maybe you can enlighten me with specific Penal code section on SELLER's ID requirement?

FFLs are not lawmakers or LEOs. They just need to understand and follow the laws correctly like the rest of gun owners, not making up more crap to make things more difficult for everyone. They should also be speaking up if they see issues with how gun laws are being interpreted/implemented since it's their livelihood.

CA FFLs are already given a leg up with the law requiring everyone to use their service when buying/selling guns, and no one forces them to become FFLs so stop giving them excuses for doing a bad job.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 1681

sounds like you know more about CA gun laws so maybe you can enlighten me with specific Penal code section on SELLER's ID requirement?



FFLs are not lawmakers or LEOs. They just need to understand and follow the laws correctly like the rest of gun owners, not making up more crap to make things more difficult for everyone. They should also be speaking up if they see issues with how gun laws are being interpreted/implemented since it's their livelihood.



CA FFLs are already given a leg up with the law requiring everyone to use their service when buying/selling guns, and no one forces them to become FFLs so stop giving them excuses for doing a bad job.

You can do the research yourself instead of wanting to be spoon fed. A dealer has to read a CA ID/DL, or military ID with duty orders. How can it be done without it? The CA DOJ has stated what is required, including additional documents when it says Federal Limits Apply on the front.

Yes, FFLs have to follow the laws and regulations. Unless you educate yourself, how can you say what they are doing is wrong? You may not like it, but you don't get inspected by the CA DOJ and BATF.

Leg up being forced to work for wages under the minimum wage? Oh, because you don't know all it takes and the expenses, it doesn't exist. You don't know, so it is bad.

So perhaps all the FFLs should close and then what will you do?

[1681]

Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports

It’s hard to blame them. There’s not a business in the world that likes having the price of their services dictated to them by the state....

I bet most businesses would love to have the state guarantees a customer base for their products/services.

[1681]

Originally Posted by kemasa

You can do the research yourself instead of wanting to be spoon fed. A dealer has to read a CA ID/DL, or military ID with duty orders. How can it be done without it? The CA DOJ has stated what is required, including additional documents when it says Federal Limits Apply on the front.

Yes, FFLs have to follow the laws and regulations. Unless you educate yourself, how can you say what they are doing is wrong? You may not like it, but you don't get inspected by the CA DOJ and BATF.

Leg up being forced to work for wages under the minimum wage? Oh, because you don't know all it takes and the expenses, it doesn't exist. You don't know, so it is bad.

So perhaps all the FFLs should close and then what will you do?

I've done plenty of research and even spoke with a CA DOJ rep, who could not tell me what PC applies to SELLER's ID requirement after he searched for it himself.

that's why I asked if you know the specific PC since you sounded like an "expert".

which business does not love for the state to guarantee a customer base for their products/services for free?

how much would they have to spend on ads if the state doesn't require everyone to use FFLs to buy/sell guns?

I bet you give bad cops a pass because they have a tough job, right?

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 1681

I've done plenty of research and even spoke with a CA DOJ rep, who could not tell me what PC applies to SELLER's ID requirement after he searched for it himself.

that's why I asked if you know the specific PC since you sounded like an "expert".

There is a CA PC which deals with the requirements for CA PPTs and the information required. A valid ID is required. CA DOJ has defined what is valid.

which business does not love for the state to guarantee a customer base for their products/services for free?

Most when the fee is limited to a small amount.

how much would they have to spend on ads if the state doesn't require everyone to use FFLs to buy/sell guns?

You mean like in free states? Not much actually, many free means of getting business by registering with sellers. CA PPTs are not that much business and certainly not much money, especially for all the time needed to deal with it, including all the paperwork to be stored.

I bet you give bad cops a pass because they have a tough job, right?

Nope, not at all. I see you like to make things up to attack. I have no problem with a valid complaint, but far too often it is a bogus complaint because the person doesn't have a clue as to everything that has to be dealt with, including being told what to do, even if it doesn't seem to follow the law, by the government. A prime example is the 1 in 30 exemption for modern firearms when the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE.

When the answer isn't known and it is hard to get an answer, what do you expect people to do? Do the safe thing or gamble with their business?

Did you know it was law to swipe the CA ID/DL at some point in the transaction? It doesn't matter if you know it won't work, you still have to do it.

[1681]

Originally Posted by kemasa

There is a CA PC which deals with the requirements for CA PPTs and the information required. A valid ID is required. CA DOJ has defined what is valid.

Again, which PC deals with SELLER's ID requirement?

Originally Posted by kemasa

Most when the fee is limited to a small amount.

You mean like in free states? Not much actually, many free means of getting business by registering with sellers. CA PPTs are not that much business and certainly not much money, especially for all the time needed to deal with it, including all the paperwork to be stored.

If someone believes he/she can earn a living with PPTs, they need to get their heads examined.

Many businesses spend lots of money to get potential customers into their doors just to look at their stuff, and PPT is a great way for FFLs to get that traffic for almost free.

Originally Posted by kemasa

Nope, not at all. I see you like to make things up to attack. I have no problem with a valid complaint, but far too often it is a bogus complaint because the person doesn't have a clue as to everything that has to be dealt with, including being told what to do, even if it doesn't seem to follow the law, by the government. A prime example is the 1 in 30 exemption for modern firearms when the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE.

When the answer isn't known and it is hard to get an answer, what do you expect people to do? Do the safe thing or gamble with their business?

Did you know it was law to swipe the CA ID/DL at some point in the transaction? It doesn't matter if you know it won't work, you still have to do it.

which law was that? or is it a policy/procedure created by some bureaucrats at CA DOJ (who are paid by taxpayers to be our "public servants").

Policies are not LAWS, and the people who work at CA DOJ or gun stores are not GODS.

They become GODs when average gun owners just bow down to their bad implementation of laws with bad policies/procedures so they can just survive another day.

and we all know LAWS and policies can be changed when there are enough people that want the change and are willing to fight for it.

It's ironic that CA "law abiding" gun owners have been losing more rights, while other minority groups like LGBTQ or undocumented immigrants are gaining more rights everyday.

[kemasa]

Regulations can be law when the law says that they can make regulations.

Go ahead, get a FFL and show everyone how it is done.

[kemasa]

BTW, I asked about the ID requirements for the seller and was told it is the same as for the buyer. Not sure if it is the official position of the CA DOJ, but it is what I was told by a person there.

Update: I asked another person and was told that the seller doesn't need the same ID requirements, BUT if the buyer is denied, then they would need it to get it back and if they don't have it, under the laws regarding a CA PPT, the firearm would have to be turned over to the police.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Regulations can be law when the law says that they can make regulations.

Go ahead, get a FFL and show everyone how it is done.

This is the part that consumers don't get. "but the PC says"

[1681]

Originally Posted by kemasa

BTW, I asked about the ID requirements for the seller and was told it is the same as for the buyer. Not sure if it is the official position of the CA DOJ, but it is what I was told by a person there.

Update: I asked another person and was told that the seller doesn't need the same ID requirements, BUT if the buyer is denied, then they would need it to get it back and if they don't have it, under the laws regarding a CA PPT, the firearm would have to be turned over to the police.

Here's what the actual CA Penal Code says about returning firearms to PPT sellers if buyers failed NICS:

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm.

and here's what CA DOJ says about the same thing:

The purchaser from a Private Party transaction was denied, how can I request the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) to return the firearm to the seller?

The NTN for a seller will only be provided when the purchaser from a Private Party transaction has a status of "Undetermined," "Rejected," or "Denied" associated with the background of that particular DROS transaction. The dealer must contact the Customer Support Center at (855) 365-3767 for assistance to request the NTN number by providing the associated transactions DROS number and verifying the purchasers first and last name. If the corresponding DROS transaction is cancelled, or past the 30 24-hour delivery/return period, the associated seller NTN will no longer be valid, and the firearm will need to be DROSed back to the seller as a Return to Owner DROS transaction.

Basically, there's no need to DROS the gun back to the seller if the gun is returned to the seller within the 30 24-hour delivery/return period.

and FFLs aren't law makers nor law enforcement officers.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 1681

Here's what the actual CA Penal Code says about returning firearms to PPT sellers if buyers failed NICS:

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm.

and here's what CA DOJ says about the same thing:

The purchaser from a Private Party transaction was denied, how can I request the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) to return the firearm to the seller?

The NTN for a seller will only be provided when the purchaser from a Private Party transaction has a status of "Undetermined," "Rejected," or "Denied" associated with the background of that particular DROS transaction. The dealer must contact the Customer Support Center at (855) 365-3767 for assistance to request the NTN number by providing the associated transactions DROS number and verifying the purchasers first and last name. If the corresponding DROS transaction is cancelled, or past the 30 24-hour delivery/return period, the associated seller NTN will no longer be valid, and the firearm will need to be DROSed back to the seller as a Return to Owner DROS transaction.

Basically, there's no need to DROS the gun back to the seller if the gun is returned to the seller within the 30 24-hour delivery/return period.

and FFLs aren't law makers nor law enforcement officers.

Not the complete information since you left out the part if it can't be returned to the seller. Also, it doesn't include anything about the ID requirements.

Nice snide comment about FFLs, but it is bogus as FFLs have to follow the rules, even if the rules are made up.

[1681]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Not the complete information since you left out the part if it can't be returned to the seller. Also, it doesn't include anything about the ID requirements.

Nice snide comment about FFLs, but it is bogus as FFLs have to follow the rules, even if the rules are made up.

The seller's ID requirements to be same as buyer is only needed if buyer failed NICS, and the gun was not returned to seller during the 30 24-hours delivery/waiting period since a DROS is then required for the seller. If the seller failed NICS check, then the gun goes to local PD for disposal.

Your info came from different FFLs and their understanding of the law, who tend to made up more crap policies to cover their own asses and force others to "obey" it.

Based on what I've seen, most FFLs do not understand this process and will give out BS information, which we don't need more of.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 10mmunderwood

Oaktree gun club and Big 5 Valencia refused to do Ammo PPT. Essentially denying your 2nd amendment right.

The 2nd amendment limits what the government can do, it doesn't apply to businesses. It is the government who created the law which violates your rights, not businesses. You don't have a right to demand what a business does.

[1681]

Originally Posted by 10mmunderwood

Oaktree gun club and Big 5 Valencia refused to do Ammo PPT. Essentially denying your 2nd amendment right.

and you have the right to deny them your business.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by 1681

The seller's ID requirements to be same as buyer is only needed if buyer failed NICS, and the gun was not returned to seller during the 30 24-hours delivery/waiting period since a DROS is then required for the seller. If the seller failed NICS check, then the gun goes to local PD for disposal.



Your info came from different FFLs and their understanding of the law, who tend to made up more crap policies to cover their own asses and force others to "obey" it.



Based on what I've seen, most FFLs do not understand this process and will give out BS information, which we don't need more of.

The seller doesn't have to fail the background check for the gun to go to the police.

My info came from different FFLs? Really? Try dealing with all the rules and regulations and see what happens if you don't do the safe thing.

Don't give out bogus information yourself.