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Need die recommendaton for 45 ACP with heavy crimp
I need a recommendation for the best dies to use for my unusual situation. I’m just getting started into reloading and have a Hornady LNL on the way. My first objective is loading and also recrimping factory .45 acp, .45 +P and .45 Super. I have an unusual gun that requires a serious crimp.
First, even after some research, I’m still unclear on the difference between a collet crimp die, a taper crimp die and a factory crimp die for a straight walled auto cartridge, so any information on that would be helpful. I know a roll crimp is only for revolvers. The info I have so far seems to indicate my best choice is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die, and if that is the case, I’d lean toward purchasing the Lee Precision Deluxe Carbide 4-Die Set which includes that crimp die. Is this the best choice? Any other factors and options I should consider? On a related note, is there such a thing as too much crimp for this cartridge? If so, how will I know if I have reached that point?
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#2
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If you crimp too much, you will have a severe line on the bullet. Obviously to test this you would need a bullet puller. Accuracy will suffer with too much crimp and you may be in a dangerous over pressure situation.
Case walls are generally 0.01" each side, so ideal crimp would be bullet diameter plus (0.01" x2). For 45 acp that would be .452+.01+.01=.472 What gun are you using that needs more crimp than that? Probably something else going on. P.S., I use dillon dies which are a taper crimp in 45acp. Works for every gun I've ever fired my reloads in... |
#3
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Back in the old days before the Internet Lyman suggested crimping could be a bad habit. The reason they said that? "Crimping can reduce bullet hold" they said that before someone on the Internet invented neck tension. Even then I had tension gages; problem then and now tension gages do not measure tension in tensions, All of my tension gages measure bullet hold in pounds and the gages did not come with a pound conversion chart to tensions. F. Guffey |
#4
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OP, asking for proper crimp style. Requires knowing what type pistol these [45acp+p and 45 Supers] will be fired in. To give a concise and proper answer.
Rimless semi auto cartridges. 45 acp and 45 Super. Headspace on the case mouth of the semi auto pistols they were designed to work in. And should only be crimped using a "taper crimp". Which leaves the case mouth exposed above the diameter of the bullet, so it can engage the "step" in the chamber as designed. The exception to this headspacing/crimping rule for these rimless ACP type cartridges. Is that a "roll crimp" can be used if the cartridges are being loaded for a revolver that utilize "half moon or full circle "clips". In such a revolver, roll crimp is preferred if the gun is heavy recoiling and unfired bullets "jump" forward in the cylinder when fired. JM2c |
#5
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The pistol in question is a semi-auto Boberg XR45, and the reason for the heavy crimp is that the pistol has a unique feed mechanism that pulls the cartridge backward out of the magazine at the speed of the slide and then inserts it into the chamber. With an insufficient crimp, the inertia of the bullet causes the bullet to stay in the magazine while the brass is yanked backward. The chamber is like any other auto except there is no need for a traditional feed ramp because the round is inserted straight into the chamber rather than at an angle.
A still photo does not really do it justice, so here is a brief animation for those who might be interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TSva89jbNM
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I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#6
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You want a taper crimp die.
I use RCBS.
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#7
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Almost forgot.
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Any more than that, actually decreases neck tension. Due to the differences in the metallurgy of the two types of metal involved. Brass "springs back" when worked. Lead does not. So if you over do the taper crimp. You compress the brass into the lead. The brass then springs back "just a little". But the lead stays compressed. It is a balancing act. |
#10
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Pacrat,
Thank you for that exceptionally clear explanation. Is this problem observable by eye or with a micrometer, or is it only in the only apparent in the firing?
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I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#11
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Your situation raises some unique difficulties. Most semi autos suffer from possible bullet set back if neck tension isn't sufficient. Revolvers just the opposite. Your Boberg greatly accentuates the revolvers bullet jump problem. Due to the full length forceful rearward "JERK" of the cartridge during cycling. I set taper crimp dies "by eye". But do so using visual aids in the process. I have a bright desk lamp with flexible neck over my bench. And use the edge of a small 6" steel ruler held along side the cartridge, with the light behind it. When any sign of light below the case mouth disappears. Case is confirmed straight. And I lock the die. At this time with no actual experience loading for a Boberg. I can only advise, what "I would, and would not do". Relying on 50 yrs of experience. I would definitely NOT LOAD, "nickel" plated cases for this pistol. Nickle is an exceptionally slick hard metal. That would contribute to bullet slippage. I would also NOT LOAD lubed cast bullets. Same goes with powder coated cast bullets. I suggest jacketed bullets. I would degrease them and the cases, in lacquer or paint thinner before loading. With good drying time beforehand. If you use a vibratory case cleaner with media. I would give cases a good boiling water rinse to remove the powdery dust from cases. A good lubricant free, interference fit, between a brass case and guilding metal jacket will contribute to better "bullet hold". I would also measure the expander button in the die. It should be .001-.002" smaller than bullet dia. If all fails and you still get slippage. I would investigate "sealer" for the bullets. Like military ammo is loaded with. Hope these observations/suggestions prove useful to you. In any case please let us know. Life is a learning experience. Last edited by pacrat; 01-04-2019 at 4:09 PM.. |
#12
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Interestingly enough, some of the least expensive ammo out there, Winchester White Box, is known to be completely reliable in this gun.
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#13
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Too much crimp....yea when the case bulges below the crimp...yea it happens.
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#14
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Less pressure/velocity means "slower" slide movement. Slower slide, means the round in mag isn't being violently "jerked" rearward as fast. |
#15
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I would necessarily say that's true. I've had several stock guns that didn't run well on my USPSA ammo but ran fine on and factory ammo I put in them. After a recoil spring change the guns run better.
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If you want change you have to put in your 2 cents, you can't just sit on the sidelines and whine. |
#16
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Trial and error
Load some Measure the coal Load a magazine Shoot 1 Remove magazine Remove chambered round Has the coal changed from recoil on the ones in the magazine Has the coal changed on the one that was chambered after the first one was fired? Reloading is a science. Sometime the impulse from light bullets is sharper and pulls the unfixed rounds increasing coal Sometimes heavy bullets are more impacted by hot loads. Bring some calipers to the range and determine how much crimp is needed. The magnums seem to be revolvers- 357 44 454 casul 500 The role crimp on a cases cartridge could be a factor... But if you are staying within saami load / pressure specs, rcbs dies or lee dies will work just fine.
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#18
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Overcrimping auto pistol rounds is counterproductive. Increasing friction between the case walls and the bullet is a better solution. I would wet tumble my brass, then spin a new bronze brush inside a sized and flared case using a power drill. This will score the brass and increase friction. Crimp lightly to remove the flare from the case mouth.
I would get a Lee universal expander die. It does not expand the case body, only flares the mouth with a conical expander plug. That way you’ll have max grip on the bullet. Typical expander dies expand the body of the case which reduces bullet pull. The Lee universal expander only flares. It is better for your application. |
#19
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J-cat,
Thanks for that innovative solution to roughen the inside of the case. I am leaning towards using the Lee 4 die set which includes: * Carbide Factory Crimp Die * Powder Through Expanding Die * Bullet Seat & Feed Die * Carbide Sizing Die Would I be able to adjust that powder through expanding die to just expand the mouth? I will be using a Hornady LNL 5 station press.
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights. The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes. |
#20
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I’d put this in station one...
https://leeprecision.com/undersize-s...ie-45-acp.html Taper crimp does not hold the bullet. |
#21
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Am I the only one that thinks this is the wrong firearm to start your reload with ? OP do you have another 45acp you can load for first to get the basics down first then move to this exotic firearm ??
I agree this is going to be a trial and error thing . He’s going to need to load a few dummy rounds and plunk test with multiple crimps strengths to see how heavy he can crimp . This is why I think working with a different gun first to understand the general process first is a better way to start . Even 9mm or 40 S&W would work in understanding the basics of reloading first if a 45 is not available . The other thing to ask would be. Is that firearm designed to fire standard factory ball ammo ? If so then maybe this heavy crimp thing is not as important as it seems it might be . Just a good strong crimp may work fine ??? Here's hickok45 reviewing the 9mm version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckyUmldwiDo
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#22
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Due to the previously mentioned "spring back" property of brass. Any more than .002" interference fit. The bullet will improperly act as the expander. And you will have sacrificed a consistent neck tension. But gained no more actual neck tension, or bullet hold, in the process due to the "springback". Plus the increased force required to seat stubby pistol bullets, in the inconsistently undersized necks. Will cause them to seat crooked. And result in bulges in the finished round at the bullet base. |
#23
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I think trial and error is the way to go, there is a learning curve that you will have to work through. I've been using the same Lee dies to reload 45acp for over 40 years in a progressive press and here is what I know:
*The carbide sizing/decapping die will over size your brass, meaning the ID will be smaller than factory brass after you size it. Don't worry about it, it is only a thousandth or 2. It will be more apparent when resizing fired brass if the chamber of the pistol used to shoot it was on the large side. *The powder thru expander die can be adjusted to put a very light flare in the end of your sized brass and that is what you want in order to promote insertion of the new bullet. There is no expander button used in these dies. *The bullet seating die can be adjusted to just barely remove the flare put in the brass by the powder thru expander die. *Chances are good that when you are done you will be able to see where the base of the bullet is in the case, especially if you are using .452 diameter bullets. This does not hurt a thing as long as there is no wrinkling or crushing of the case. When fired the case will form to the chamber walls and the ejected case will look absolutely normal. I'm assuming you are not going to be shooting these reloads in competition or using them for self defense so there is no real reason to seek absolute perfection at this point in your reloading career. IMHO, for a newbie reloader the result you want is safe ammo that goes bang at the appropriate time. Once you have mastered that you can progress into making more perfect reloads. Last edited by Russ661; 01-07-2019 at 11:40 AM.. |
#24
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