Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-03-2019, 11:37 AM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,018
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Need die recommendaton for 45 ACP with heavy crimp

I need a recommendation for the best dies to use for my unusual situation. I’m just getting started into reloading and have a Hornady LNL on the way. My first objective is loading and also recrimping factory .45 acp, .45 +P and .45 Super. I have an unusual gun that requires a serious crimp.

First, even after some research, I’m still unclear on the difference between a collet crimp die, a taper crimp die and a factory crimp die for a straight walled auto cartridge, so any information on that would be helpful. I know a roll crimp is only for revolvers.

The info I have so far seems to indicate my best choice is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die, and if that is the case, I’d lean toward purchasing the Lee Precision Deluxe Carbide 4-Die Set which includes that crimp die. Is this the best choice? Any other factors and options I should consider?

On a related note, is there such a thing as too much crimp for this cartridge? If so, how will I know if I have reached that point?
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-03-2019, 11:50 AM
trackcage's Avatar
trackcage trackcage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Roseville
Posts: 1,777
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

If you crimp too much, you will have a severe line on the bullet. Obviously to test this you would need a bullet puller. Accuracy will suffer with too much crimp and you may be in a dangerous over pressure situation.

Case walls are generally 0.01" each side, so ideal crimp would be bullet diameter plus (0.01" x2). For 45 acp that would be .452+.01+.01=.472

What gun are you using that needs more crimp than that? Probably something else going on.

P.S., I use dillon dies which are a taper crimp in 45acp. Works for every gun I've ever fired my reloads in...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-03-2019, 12:35 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,408
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
is there such a thing as too much crimp for this cartridge?
It is written: There is no such thing as much crimp. There is a problem when it comes to 'where that is written and who said it'. And then there is that old research problem and how serious crimping has been tested.

Back in the old days before the Internet Lyman suggested crimping could be a bad habit. The reason they said that? "Crimping can reduce bullet hold" they said that before someone on the Internet invented neck tension. Even then I had tension gages; problem then and now tension gages do not measure tension in tensions, All of my tension gages measure bullet hold in pounds and the gages did not come with a pound conversion chart to tensions.

F. Guffey
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-03-2019, 2:55 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 10,220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

OP, asking for proper crimp style. Requires knowing what type pistol these [45acp+p and 45 Supers] will be fired in. To give a concise and proper answer.

Rimless semi auto cartridges. 45 acp and 45 Super. Headspace on the case mouth of the semi auto pistols they were designed to work in. And should only be crimped using a "taper crimp". Which leaves the case mouth exposed above the diameter of the bullet, so it can engage the "step" in the chamber as designed.

The exception to this headspacing/crimping rule for these rimless ACP type cartridges. Is that a "roll crimp" can be used if the cartridges are being loaded for a revolver that utilize "half moon or full circle "clips".

In such a revolver, roll crimp is preferred if the gun is heavy recoiling and unfired bullets "jump" forward in the cylinder when fired.

JM2c
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-03-2019, 3:23 PM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,018
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The pistol in question is a semi-auto Boberg XR45, and the reason for the heavy crimp is that the pistol has a unique feed mechanism that pulls the cartridge backward out of the magazine at the speed of the slide and then inserts it into the chamber. With an insufficient crimp, the inertia of the bullet causes the bullet to stay in the magazine while the brass is yanked backward. The chamber is like any other auto except there is no need for a traditional feed ramp because the round is inserted straight into the chamber rather than at an angle.

A still photo does not really do it justice, so here is a brief animation for those who might be interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TSva89jbNM
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-03-2019, 4:04 PM
baih777 baih777 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 5,662
iTrader: 121 / 100%
Default

You want a taper crimp die.
I use RCBS.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked.
I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows.
I'm Back.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-03-2019, 5:26 PM
bruce381's Avatar
bruce381 bruce381 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Millbrae, CA
Posts: 2,384
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
If you crimp too much, you will have a severe line on the bullet. Obviously to test this you would need a bullet puller. Accuracy will suffer with too much crimp and you may be in a dangerous over pressure situation.

Case walls are generally 0.01" each side, so ideal crimp would be bullet diameter plus (0.01" x2). For 45 acp that would be .452+.01+.01=.472

What gun are you using that needs more crimp than that? Probably something else going on.

P.S., I use dillon dies which are a taper crimp in 45acp. Works for every gun I've ever fired my reloads in...
100% correct why do you need a severe crimp, How do you know that?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-03-2019, 5:30 PM
kostner's Avatar
kostner kostner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 125
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

You want a taper crimp die have used them most of my life. Lee & Dillon both make dies that will outlast you.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2019, 10:10 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 10,220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Almost forgot.

Quote:
On a related note, is there such a thing as too much crimp for this cartridge? If so, how will I know if I have reached that point?
Yes, it is possible to over crimp with a taper die. Rule of thumb is to slowly adjust the die downward. Just enough to straighten the mouth wall back to "straight" to remove the expanding bell. This provides optimal "neck tension" to hold the bullet.

Any more than that, actually decreases neck tension. Due to the differences in the metallurgy of the two types of metal involved. Brass "springs back" when worked. Lead does not.

So if you over do the taper crimp. You compress the brass into the lead. The brass then springs back "just a little". But the lead stays compressed.

It is a balancing act.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-04-2019, 8:56 AM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,018
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Pacrat,

Thank you for that exceptionally clear explanation. Is this problem observable by eye or with a micrometer, or is it only in the only apparent in the firing?
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-04-2019, 4:05 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 10,220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
Pacrat,

Thank you for that exceptionally clear explanation. Is this problem observable by eye or with a micrometer, or is it only in the only apparent in the firing?
Back to the last line of my last post. "IT IS A BALANCING ACT"

Your situation raises some unique difficulties. Most semi autos suffer from possible bullet set back if neck tension isn't sufficient. Revolvers just the opposite. Your Boberg greatly accentuates the revolvers bullet jump problem. Due to the full length forceful rearward "JERK" of the cartridge during cycling.

I set taper crimp dies "by eye". But do so using visual aids in the process. I have a bright desk lamp with flexible neck over my bench. And use the edge of a small 6" steel ruler held along side the cartridge, with the light behind it. When any sign of light below the case mouth disappears. Case is confirmed straight. And I lock the die.

At this time with no actual experience loading for a Boberg. I can only advise, what "I would, and would not do". Relying on 50 yrs of experience.

I would definitely NOT LOAD, "nickel" plated cases for this pistol. Nickle is an exceptionally slick hard metal. That would contribute to bullet slippage. I would also NOT LOAD lubed cast bullets. Same goes with powder coated cast bullets. I suggest jacketed bullets. I would degrease them and the cases, in lacquer or paint thinner before loading. With good drying time beforehand.

If you use a vibratory case cleaner with media. I would give cases a good boiling water rinse to remove the powdery dust from cases.

A good lubricant free, interference fit, between a brass case and guilding metal jacket will contribute to better "bullet hold". I would also measure the expander button in the die. It should be .001-.002" smaller than bullet dia.

If all fails and you still get slippage. I would investigate "sealer" for the bullets. Like military ammo is loaded with.

Hope these observations/suggestions prove useful to you. In any case please let us know. Life is a learning experience.

Last edited by pacrat; 01-04-2019 at 4:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-05-2019, 3:58 PM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,018
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Interestingly enough, some of the least expensive ammo out there, Winchester White Box, is known to be completely reliable in this gun.
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-05-2019, 4:27 PM
mjmagee67's Avatar
mjmagee67 mjmagee67 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Free America, Idaho.
Posts: 2,771
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Too much crimp....yea when the case bulges below the crimp...yea it happens.
__________________
If you want change you have to put in your 2 cents, you can't just sit on the sidelines and whine.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-05-2019, 5:41 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 10,220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
Interestingly enough, some of the least expensive ammo out there, Winchester White Box, is known to be completely reliable in this gun.
Quite likely due to the reduced pressure/velocity of less expensive ammo.

Less pressure/velocity means "slower" slide movement. Slower slide, means the round in mag isn't being violently "jerked" rearward as fast.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-05-2019, 7:03 PM
mjmagee67's Avatar
mjmagee67 mjmagee67 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Free America, Idaho.
Posts: 2,771
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
Quite likely due to the reduced pressure/velocity of less expensive ammo.

Less pressure/velocity means "slower" slide movement. Slower slide, means the round in mag isn't being violently "jerked" rearward as fast.
I would necessarily say that's true. I've had several stock guns that didn't run well on my USPSA ammo but ran fine on and factory ammo I put in them. After a recoil spring change the guns run better.
__________________
If you want change you have to put in your 2 cents, you can't just sit on the sidelines and whine.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:27 PM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Bay of Los Angeles
Posts: 18,384
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Trial and error

Load some

Measure the coal

Load a magazine

Shoot 1
Remove magazine
Remove chambered round
Has the coal changed from recoil on the ones in the magazine
Has the coal changed on the one that was chambered after the first one was fired?


Reloading is a science.

Sometime the impulse from light bullets is sharper and pulls the unfixed rounds increasing coal

Sometimes heavy bullets are more impacted by hot loads.

Bring some calipers to the range and determine how much crimp is needed.

The magnums seem to be revolvers-
357
44
454 casul
500
The role crimp on a cases cartridge could be a factor...

But if you are staying within saami load / pressure specs, rcbs dies or lee dies will work just fine.
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs)

Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
(thanks to Jeff Cooper)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-06-2019, 3:29 PM
Scota4570 Scota4570 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,703
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

If you crimp way to much it will not head-space properly. IF you fire like that the case mouth will be pinched by the bullet to the chamber.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-06-2019, 6:48 PM
J-cat J-cat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: IE
Posts: 6,614
iTrader: 74 / 100%
Default

Overcrimping auto pistol rounds is counterproductive. Increasing friction between the case walls and the bullet is a better solution. I would wet tumble my brass, then spin a new bronze brush inside a sized and flared case using a power drill. This will score the brass and increase friction. Crimp lightly to remove the flare from the case mouth.

I would get a Lee universal expander die. It does not expand the case body, only flares the mouth with a conical expander plug. That way you’ll have max grip on the bullet. Typical expander dies expand the body of the case which reduces bullet pull. The Lee universal expander only flares. It is better for your application.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-06-2019, 7:41 PM
MajorCaliber MajorCaliber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,018
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

J-cat,

Thanks for that innovative solution to roughen the inside of the case. I am leaning towards using the Lee 4 die set which includes:

* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die

Would I be able to adjust that powder through expanding die to just expand the mouth? I will be using a Hornady LNL 5 station press.
__________________
I wish today's liberals could understand: You cannot be generous by giving away other peoples' money and you cannot demonstrate your virtue by your willingness to give up other peoples' rights.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more sense kcbrown makes.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-06-2019, 7:53 PM
LeadPilot's Avatar
LeadPilot LeadPilot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 589
iTrader: 57 / 100%
Default

I’d put this in station one...
https://leeprecision.com/undersize-s...ie-45-acp.html
Taper crimp does not hold the bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-06-2019, 9:33 PM
Metal God's Avatar
Metal God Metal God is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,836
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Am I the only one that thinks this is the wrong firearm to start your reload with ? OP do you have another 45acp you can load for first to get the basics down first then move to this exotic firearm ??

I agree this is going to be a trial and error thing . He’s going to need to load a few dummy rounds and plunk test with multiple crimps strengths to see how heavy he can crimp . This is why I think working with a different gun first to understand the general process first is a better way to start . Even 9mm or 40 S&W would work in understanding the basics of reloading first if a 45 is not available .

The other thing to ask would be. Is that firearm designed to fire standard factory ball ammo ? If so then maybe this heavy crimp thing is not as important as it seems it might be . Just a good strong crimp may work fine ???

Here's hickok45 reviewing the 9mm version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckyUmldwiDo
__________________
Tolerate
allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again

Last edited by Metal God; 01-06-2019 at 9:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-06-2019, 10:11 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Socialist Republic of SoCal
Posts: 10,220
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post

Would I be able to adjust that powder through expanding die to just expand the mouth? I will be using a Hornady LNL 5 station press.
I would suggest against that. From post #11. Followed by reasoning why it's not a good idea.

Quote:
A good lubricant free, interference fit, between a brass case and guilding metal jacket will contribute to better "bullet hold". I would also measure the expander button in the die. It should be .001-.002" smaller than bullet dia.
The as designed purpose of the "expander" is to make the case ready for proper seating. If not used, the ID of the cases will NOT be consistent. Therefore will not have a .001-.002" proper interference fit. The fit would vary due to the differences in case thickness.

Due to the previously mentioned "spring back" property of brass. Any more than .002" interference fit. The bullet will improperly act as the expander. And you will have sacrificed a consistent neck tension. But gained no more actual neck tension, or bullet hold, in the process due to the "springback".

Plus the increased force required to seat stubby pistol bullets, in the inconsistently undersized necks. Will cause them to seat crooked. And result in bulges in the finished round at the bullet base.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:28 AM
Russ661 Russ661 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Far north L.A. county
Posts: 94
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

I think trial and error is the way to go, there is a learning curve that you will have to work through. I've been using the same Lee dies to reload 45acp for over 40 years in a progressive press and here is what I know:
*The carbide sizing/decapping die will over size your brass, meaning the ID will be smaller than factory brass after you size it. Don't worry about it, it is only a thousandth or 2. It will be more apparent when resizing fired brass if the chamber of the pistol used to shoot it was on the large side.
*The powder thru expander die can be adjusted to put a very light flare in the end of your sized brass and that is what you want in order to promote insertion of the new bullet. There is no expander button used in these dies.
*The bullet seating die can be adjusted to just barely remove the flare put in the brass by the powder thru expander die.
*Chances are good that when you are done you will be able to see where the base of the bullet is in the case, especially if you are using .452 diameter bullets. This does not hurt a thing as long as there is no wrinkling or crushing of the case. When fired the case will form to the chamber walls and the ejected case will look absolutely normal. I'm assuming you are not going to be shooting these reloads in competition or using them for self defense so there is no real reason to seek absolute perfection at this point in your reloading career. IMHO, for a newbie reloader the result you want is safe ammo that goes bang at the appropriate time. Once you have mastered that you can progress into making more perfect reloads.

Last edited by Russ661; 01-07-2019 at 11:40 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-07-2019, 1:04 PM
J-cat J-cat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: IE
Posts: 6,614
iTrader: 74 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
J-cat,

Thanks for that innovative solution to roughen the inside of the case. I am leaning towards using the Lee 4 die set which includes:

* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die

Would I be able to adjust that powder through expanding die to just expand the mouth? I will be using a Hornady LNL 5 station press.
I would not use anything that expands the case walls. I would go with a flare only die.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:10 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy