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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 01-15-2020, 2:07 PM
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So, is the injunction hearing on the 29th still? Or, has it been rescheduled for 2/6? It seems like every time something happens, dates get pushed back. These add up. :/
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  #202  
Old 01-15-2020, 2:13 PM
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Am I reading correctly here... pushed back to 2/6/2020?

Edit: saw post above. Thinking it's pushed back as replies are due 1/30/2020
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  #203  
Old 01-15-2020, 2:17 PM
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Awesome!!!
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  #204  
Old 01-15-2020, 4:54 PM
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Since IANAL, can someone explain?
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  #205  
Old 01-15-2020, 9:17 PM
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For anybody asking this has to do with the "assault weapons" California has defined such as common use rifles with cosmetic features, Ar pistols, ak pistols and other such pistol in that variant and I'm also guessing handguns with threaded barrels? If we win we will be able to have whatever free America has such as regular ol ar/ak pistols without maglocks. If I'm wrong please chime in as I am not a lawyer
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  #206  
Old 01-15-2020, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
If we win we will be able to have whatever free America has such as regular ol ar/ak pistols without maglocks. If I'm wrong please chime in as I am not a lawyer
If we win it will be appealed, then we will lose. So, no.
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  #207  
Old 01-15-2020, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Garrett52 View Post
How would this work with ar pistols? If you own a semi auto ar pistol would you be able to remove the mag lock and run 10+ round mags?
Didn't you buy any 30 rounders during magazine freedom week?
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  #208  
Old 01-15-2020, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
If we win it will be appealed, then we will lose. So, no.
I doubt the CA-DoJ will want to repeat their experience appealing the magazine PI while the case is being litigated at the trial court.
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  #209  
Old 01-15-2020, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mandingo27 View Post
For anybody asking this has to do with the "assault weapons" California has defined such as common use rifles with cosmetic features, Ar pistols, ak pistols and other such pistol in that variant and I'm also guessing handguns with threaded barrels? If we win we will be able to have whatever free America has such as regular ol ar/ak pistols without maglocks. If I'm wrong please chime in as I am not a lawyer
The win you are defining would have to survive appeal. I would expect that the present ban on owning AWs would be enjoined, similar to how the ban on owning magazines with a capacity > 10 rounds was enjoined for the duration of the trial proceeding. Does the PI permit new purchases? Probably not. Conversions of featureless to featured would probably fly, since the PI would probably apply to the features that caused a rifle with the features to be banned.

One thing I am curious about - whether the magnets that circumvent the bullet button function would be legal under the PI, if it issues. Or, do you have to replace the bullet button in its entirety?
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  #210  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
The win you are defining would have to survive appeal. I would expect that the present ban on owning AWs would be enjoined, similar to how the ban on owning magazines with a capacity > 10 rounds was enjoined for the duration of the trial proceeding. Does the PI permit new purchases? Probably not. Conversions of featureless to featured would probably fly, since the PI would probably apply to the features that caused a rifle with the features to be banned.

One thing I am curious about - whether the magnets that circumvent the bullet button function would be legal under the PI, if it issues. Or, do you have to replace the bullet button in its entirety?
Does anyone still have bullet buttons? Since they no longer served their intended purpose mine came off. But I'd love to have my pistol grips back, please.
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  #211  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:55 PM
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Does anyone still have bullet buttons? Since they no longer served their intended purpose mine came off. But I'd love to have my pistol grips back, please.


My Tavor is dying to lose its fin grip and 4" muzzle break!
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  #212  
Old 01-15-2020, 11:04 PM
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If we win it will be appealed, then we will lose. So, no.
.... and then it'll be appealed, and so forth until SCOTUS grants or denies cert

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  #213  
Old 01-16-2020, 5:01 AM
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Tagged.
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  #214  
Old 01-16-2020, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
The win you are defining would have to survive appeal. I would expect that the present ban on owning AWs would be enjoined, similar to how the ban on owning magazines with a capacity > 10 rounds was enjoined for the duration of the trial proceeding. Does the PI permit new purchases? Probably not. Conversions of featureless to featured would probably fly, since the PI would probably apply to the features that caused a rifle with the features to be banned.

One thing I am curious about - whether the magnets that circumvent the bullet button function would be legal under the PI, if it issues. Or, do you have to replace the bullet button in its entirety?
A PI for one week, like freedom week would create havoc on the state since ALL GUNS under the category would be deemed legally obtained.

If the State won on appeal and up to SCOTUS, it would create a nightmare for the state since they could really only open up a new AW registration period again.
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  #215  
Old 01-16-2020, 6:24 AM
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Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
Didn't you buy any 30 rounders during magazine freedom week?
Whether you own any is irrelevant. You can't have more than 10 rounds in a fixed mag config, otherwise it becomes an AW.
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  #216  
Old 01-16-2020, 8:06 AM
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Whether you own any is irrelevant. You can't have more than 10 rounds in a fixed mag config, otherwise it becomes an AW.
Exactly, but this would change that. I guess I should hurry up and buy the ar pistols haha
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  #217  
Old 01-16-2020, 9:16 AM
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Key Events & Filings:

2020-1-15: NOTICE of Change of Motion Hearing as to [16-1] MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction Certain Claims in First Amended Complaint, [16-2] MOTION to Dismiss for Failure to State a Claim, [22-1] MOTION for Preliminary Injunction and Declaratory Relief: Motion Hearing reset for 2/6/2020 02:00 PM in Courtroom 5A before Judge Roger T. Benitez. Opposition briefs are to be filed no later than 1/23/2020. All reply briefs are to be filed no later than 1/30/2020. (no document attached) (gxr) (Entered: 01/15/2020)

2020-1-15: Minute Order issued by the Honorable Roger T. Benitez: DENYING 25 Motion to Stay Proceedings Pending Resolution of Related Appeals; DENYING 27 Ex Parte Motion to Stay re 16 Motion to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction Certain Claims in First Amended Complaint Motion to Dismiss for Failure to State a Claim, 22 Motion for Preliminary Injunction and Declaratory Relief Pending Ruling on Defendants' Motion to Stay. (no document attached) (gxr) (Entered: 01/15/2020)
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  #218  
Old 01-16-2020, 9:20 AM
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Exactly, but this would change that. I guess I should hurry up and buy the ar pistols haha
I like the thinking here....
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  #219  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:38 PM
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I like the thinking here....
Franklin has one on the roster.
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  #220  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:54 PM
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Franklin has one on the roster.
There are a few FFL's that can still manufacture them as well. You have to buy them complete though.
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  #221  
Old 01-16-2020, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TFA777 View Post
Whether you own any is irrelevant. You can't have more than 10 rounds in a fixed mag config, otherwise it becomes an AW.
Under Garrett52's hypothetical scenario, I believe the fixed magazine was part of the featureless configuration. If a PI enjoined the enforcement of AR 'features', wouldn't enforcement of the mag lock be enjoined?
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  #222  
Old 01-16-2020, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
A PI for one week, like freedom week would create havoc on the state since ALL GUNS under the category would be deemed legally obtained.
If we use the magazine ban PI as a model for an AW PI, my understanding is that no new AWs could be purchased, but enforcement of the features that make a firearm an AW would be enjoined. If I am correct, it would seem that folks who owned featureless firearms that could be converted into AWs, could make the conversion and be free from enforcement of the PC relating to AWs. But would new purchases of featureless firearms which are then converted to featured AWs be legit? If so, CA-DoJ would go apesh*t.

Quote:
If the State won on appeal and up to SCOTUS, it would create a nightmare for the state since they could really only open up a new AW registration period again.
If the State won on appeal at SCotUS (either through an outright win or through denial of cert from the CA9), how would that require them to open up a new AW registration period? I would expect their position to be that the folks who converted their featureless firearms to featured should just convert them back to featureless.

I think the ultimate nightmare scenario would be if the State lost at SCotUS. In that scenario, there basically would be no limit on purchasing AWs again (pre-2000 days).
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  #223  
Old 01-16-2020, 2:29 PM
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Do have a CA9 which is in fixed mag configuration. Any speculation as to whether those with RAW (BB or otherwise) should be hoarding lowers...per obligatory 30-days of course? BB especially are especially inconvenient. Even more so on AK and similar platforms.
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  #224  
Old 01-16-2020, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post

If the State won on appeal at SCotUS (either through an outright win or through denial of cert from the CA9), how would that require them to open up a new AW registration period? I would expect their position to be that the folks who converted their featureless firearms to featured should just convert them back to featureless.

I think the ultimate nightmare scenario would be if the State lost at SCotUS. In that scenario, there basically would be no limit on purchasing AWs again (pre-2000 days).
With a PI and the length of time it would take to get a SCOTUS decision i would venture to guess that the SCOTUS would allow people grandfathered in would not be subject to a taking by the state.

Not to mention, a SCOTUS ruling in favor of the state would leave open that law to the rest of the country and that ain't happening in todays court

Last edited by taperxz; 01-16-2020 at 3:15 PM..
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  #225  
Old 01-16-2020, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
If we win it will be appealed, then we will lose. So, no.
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Originally Posted by Transient View Post
.... and then it'll be appealed, and so forth until SCOTUS grants or denies cert
This. We want cases like this to get to SCOTUS to put an end to this that will cover the entire US, not just regions. Hopefully it gets there, and hopefully, RBG is not on the court when it arrives.
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  #226  
Old 01-16-2020, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
With a PI and the length of time it would take to get a SCOTUS decision i would venture to guess that the SCOTUS would allow people grandfathered in would not be subject to a taking by the state.
I could see SCotUS maintaining a PI until they could rule on the merits if they granted cert. But reversing before ruling seems highly unlikely.

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Not to mention, a SCOTUS ruling in favor of the state would leave open that law to the rest of the country and that ain't happening in todays court
Wait until the NYSR&PA case is decided. I don't like getting out in front of my skis. Roberts could still go squish or they could decide the case is moot.
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  #227  
Old 01-16-2020, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GunnEnvy View Post
My Tavor is dying to lose its fin grip and 4" muzzle break!

How many times have you burned the **** out of your thumb after a bunch of rounds? At least on an AR I can still wrap my thumb around with the proper fin or I can rest it on the shelf of the SI fin grip or the Exile machine miad grip backstrap fin. that X95 fin grip though just sucks balls. nowhere to put my thumb except sticking up in the air.
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  #228  
Old 01-16-2020, 10:10 PM
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Does anyone still have bullet buttons? Since they no longer served their intended purpose mine came off. But I'd love to have my pistol grips back, please.
Yes, lots of people still have bulletbuttons. That was the whole point of the recent AW Registration. You kept all your features but had to keep on the BB. Of course it does not mean much since a slight turn of a radlock BB and a 60 round drum makes the whole thing pointless. Also, anything purchased after 2014 is registered anyway
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  #229  
Old 01-16-2020, 10:12 PM
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Exactly, but this would change that. I guess I should hurry up and buy the ar pistols haha
You can’t buy them....
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  #230  
Old 01-16-2020, 10:23 PM
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Yes, lots of people still have bulletbuttons. That was the whole point of the recent AW Registration. You kept all your features but had to keep on the BB. Of course it does not mean much since a slight turn of a radlock BB and a 60 round drum makes the whole thing pointless. Also, anything purchased after 2014 is registered anyway
Of course, BB RAWs, how could I forget? doh!
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  #231  
Old 01-17-2020, 7:27 AM
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You can’t buy them....
Yes you can.

https://franklinarmory.com/amp/frank...lifornia-only/
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  #232  
Old 01-17-2020, 8:15 AM
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This.. and there are a few ffls that can still sell them legally in California. Fixed mag though
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  #233  
Old 01-17-2020, 8:17 AM
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This.. and there are a few ffls that can still sell them legally in California. Fixed mag though
The CA7 is a detachable mag bolt action ar pistol.
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  #234  
Old 01-17-2020, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Solidsnake87 View Post
The CA7 is a detachable mag bolt action ar pistol.
I meant that there are ffls that can still sell complete ar pistols they manufactured as fixed mag. They can be converted to semi-auto after purchase.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...ler-v-becerra/
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  #235  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Garrett52 View Post
I meant that there are ffls that can still sell complete ar pistols they manufactured as fixed mag. They can be converted to semi-auto after purchase.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...ler-v-becerra/
The DOJ now treats this as manufacturing an unsafe handgun, so I don't believe it's legal to do so. Anyone considering going down this road should think twice about it.
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  #236  
Old 01-17-2020, 2:29 PM
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The DOJ now treats this as manufacturing an unsafe handgun, so I don't believe it's legal to do so. Anyone considering going down this road should think twice about it.
No they don't. It specifically says "MAY" on the website because there is no PC that would prohibit someone from doing it.
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  #237  
Old 01-17-2020, 4:32 PM
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So category 1 AW are a no go?
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  #238  
Old 01-17-2020, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Echo4kilo View Post
Yes, lots of people still have bulletbuttons. That was the whole point of the recent AW Registration. You kept all your features but had to keep on the BB. Of course it does not mean much since a slight turn of a radlock BB and a 60 round drum makes the whole thing pointless. Also, anything purchased after 2014 is registered anyway
^^^^^^ this. All of my BBRAWs and fixed magazine firearms can be reverted to free state mode in about one minute each. If there is no time for that I can just grab one of my featureless rifles and pop a freedom week pmag60 into it and follow it up with a bunch of freedom week pmag 30s if needed.
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  #239  
Old 01-19-2020, 1:02 AM
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Tagged.
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  #240  
Old 01-19-2020, 7:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GunnEnvy View Post
My Tavor is dying to lose its fin grip and 4" muzzle break!
I don't think this will make SBR's legal in CA. You would still need a federal tax stamp and to get a tax stamp in CA you have to have a CA dangerous weapons permit, which CA will not give you and is not covered by the assault weapons law being challenged.
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