How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California

[winxp_man]

So after reading the first few pages of this awesome thread I have a question. I live in Sacramento county not the city though. Got my local business license but it has the statement "firearm sales" or "firearm resale" on it (the papers are at my shop it's why I can't say which). Is that good to go? Or do I need it to state "valid for the retail sale of firearms"

Thanks for any info. Great thread though!

[ugimports]

I think thats fine

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[Ferrum]

I see the requirements for a business license with the appropriate language. I live in an area that doesn't issue business licenses in unincorporated areas. On the counties website (Amador) the have a letter stating that no business licenses are required in these unincorporated areas. Would this letter suffice?

[kemasa]

That is the decision of the CA DOJ. I am not sure that a web page would work. You might need a specific letter for you.

I found the letter and it is vague. It does not say that you don't need a permit, which if you have, then that would not be a problem.

[Sparky21]

Whew! Thank you all for meticulously authoring and revising this thread. It was a huge help. CFD came in yesterday's mail!

[AKA15]

This was really good info and answered a lot of my questions. Thank you all!

[mike21]

Is there a thread on steps to take when closing down shop? I have another son on the way that's due in March. Along with my other son who will turn 2 in February I decided my family time is more important. I couldn't find the necessary steps on how to close shop and turn in any forms needed. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I'm a home based FFL dealer by the way.

[kemasa]

My suggestion is to just reduce what you do and not bother to close down. You don't have to do transfers or anything.Yes, there is an overhead cost, but that could be cheaper than having to deal with everything.

The BATF has an out of business office. You can ship all of your records to them or drop the off at a BATF office. If you call, they can tell you what to do.

[jlist]

Originally Posted by kemasa

You don't have to do transfers or anything.

I thought the FFLs were required to do transfers?

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by jlist

I thought the FFLs were required to do transfers?

They have to do PPTs during their normal business hours and only when the person does so as required by law (which is not typically done), not other transfers where the firearm is shipped.

[SonOfaDI]

Question:
so There are NO business requirements for a Curio & Relic FFL (C&R, 03 FFL)

Does that mean that # 1 and 3 below are not needed?

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

Thanx.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by SonOfaDI

Question:
so There are NO business requirements for a Curio & Relic FFL (C&R, 03 FFL)

Does that mean that # 1 and 3 below are not needed?

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

Thanx.

Since C&R is not legal for 'in the business' you could not get the additional business licenses.


But you do see the title for the thread - How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California - says this is about 'gun dealers', yes?

[ugimports]

I don't even think you need a COE. I got my FFL03 without a COE and only added on COE later when I was planning my actual FFL business. There may be reasons now people get COE with FFL, but they are not required for each other. You are also posting in the business FFL forum (not sure if you realized).

[dennis9288]

Such a helpful thread/discussion. Was just chatting about all of this with a friend this evening. Thanks all.

[Nefarious]

I've been entertaining the idea of becoming and FFL dealer in CA for well over a decade. Nothing huge and crazy, just a small little home based - term used loosely - operation. Back home in San Diego there are lots of options, here in the imperial valley only 2. One being the only gun shop here in town, and the other a small home based LEO ran FFL.

The amount of firearms my coworkers alone purchase, would keep me satisfied for my own little operation on the side.

Definitely need to sit down and re-read the OP. Maybe talk to the other small FFL here in town (much rather speak to someone 1 on 1)... and take it from there.

[upsdude]

I'm in the same boat. i'm curious how much has changed and what new hoops have been added to the process, especially with prop 63 being passed. i've gotten as far as talking to city hall about the 'permit to sell firearms' endorsement, which requires a commercial location, and i have to speak to the police department as well.

[ugimports]

Nothing has changed on how to become a dealer wrt to Prop 63. What is/isn't legal in terms of firearms has changed, but not anything related to the process of getting into the business.

[upsdude]

has anyone been able to do this as a part time gig/start off small sucessfully from a commercial setting? the language in my city's municipal code seems pretty clear-and i'm not getting my hopes up that they would make an exception if it explained that i'm not planning to have all sorts of foot traffic, would focus on the internet, etc.

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by upsdude

has anyone been able to do this as a part time gig/start off small sucessfully from a commercial setting? the language in my city's municipal code seems pretty clear-and i'm not getting my hopes up that they would make an exception if it explained that i'm not planning to have all sorts of foot traffic, would focus on the internet, etc.

Not sure exactly what you're asking.

I have been in business for 8 years from a commercial office (not zoned for retail). We choose to do it part time, but my wife, more or less, is there full time these days.

What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?

Also not sure what you're referring to in regards to foot traffic, etc..

[upsdude]

i'll answer in reverse :P with respect to foot traffic, the person in zoning that i spoke to was under the assumption i was trying to open a 'typical gun store' in my house. meaning that anyone would be able to drive up and just start browsing in my living room (which is obviously not what i'm trying to do.)my intention is to build a base through family members, and referrals.


What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?
-by starting off small i meant sticking to ppt's and transfers, appointment based transactions/sales. obviously would be much easier from my house, since theres no addtional rent to worry about. I'm not even sure if i should bother with ammo with prop 63 passing...i think i read a post about possibly having to install pillars?

by successful i mean being able to stick around for more than a few months and build a good customer base. i'm not trying to open up another turners or bass pro (though my brother inlaw does work for condor) but i would like to be able to have something that makes me some money, especially since this would be something i could do once i retire. but fontana seems to only allow for firearms sales from commercial spaces. i think the big sticking point is trying to get the 'for retail sales of firearms' to satisfy the CA DOJ's requirements-even though i'm in no way trying to open up a 'traditional' gun store.

i've been poking around some of the threads in the ffl section, and i'm in no way thinking i'm going to be making 6 figures in a couple years time. it would be nice, but i'm looking at this realistically.
i spoke to mary in FPD( she handles firearms dealer stuff) and said the most recent gun dealer they approved closed up in 8 months. patriot guns i believe?

i hope that cleared things up. if not i'll try again

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by upsdude

i'll answer in reverse :P with respect to foot traffic, the person in zoning that i spoke to was under the assumption i was trying to open a 'typical gun store' in my house. meaning that anyone would be able to drive up and just start browsing in my living room (which is obviously not what i'm trying to do.)my intention is to build a base through family members, and referrals.


What do you mean by "start off small" and what do you define as "successfully"?
-by starting off small i meant sticking to ppt's and transfers, appointment based transactions/sales. obviously would be much easier from my house, since theres no addtional rent to worry about. I'm not even sure if i should bother with ammo with prop 63 passing...i think i read a post about possibly having to install pillars?

by successful i mean being able to stick around for more than a few months and build a good customer base. i'm not trying to open up another turners or bass pro (though my brother inlaw does work for condor) but i would like to be able to have something that makes me some money, especially since this would be something i could do once i retire. but fontana seems to only allow for firearms sales from commercial spaces. i think the big sticking point is trying to get the 'for retail sales of firearms' to satisfy the CA DOJ's requirements-even though i'm in no way trying to open up a 'traditional' gun store.

i've been poking around some of the threads in the ffl section, and i'm in no way thinking i'm going to be making 6 figures in a couple years time. it would be nice, but i'm looking at this realistically.
i spoke to mary in FPD( she handles firearms dealer stuff) and said the most recent gun dealer they approved closed up in 8 months. patriot guns i believe?

i hope that cleared things up. if not i'll try again

All I do is what's in your bold. Does me business in a commercial space being around for 8 years mean successful to you? If so, then yes it's possible. I'm in a much higher people market though. To give you an idea I'm in Fremont (you can look it up on a map). We have a minority of customers that travel 30+ miles passing several normal LGS to come to us for transactions. A majority of our customers come to us within 15-20 miles again passing multiple LGS to get to us.

You have to do the math in your area to see if you'll survive. Clearly it's easier from home, but what the business license says vs what your city will permit you for are different things. My business permit says "Retail Sales of Firearms", but the city knows I don't do that. I was very explicit in my plan and how we would operate and it's spelled out in our conditional use permit as well.

Hopefully that answers what you're attempting to ask. Also, keep in mind, I was in the hole about 30k before I even opened up. Had to pay rent, permits, and fees just to go through the process to get my FFL. Also took me a year paying rent on a space I couldn't use until all my permits were in place. You may not have to go through that, but it's all part of your planning.

[upsdude]

well this gives me some hope, thanks for the response. did you get a business loan? and did you need to have a space while you were waiting for the clearances? or were you just doing because the location is what you wanted?

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by upsdude

well this gives me some hope, thanks for the response. did you get a business loan? and did you need to have a space while you were waiting for the clearances? or were you just doing because the location is what you wanted?

Cash savings is how I started.

You must have an address to get your license and apply for permits. Your landlord has to sign off knowing what you will do as well. I had limited choices. I had to secure the address and then start applying for licenses. Otherwise, what address would you plan on putting on your applications?

[upsdude]

good point lol

edit: is it just atf that visits or is it CA DOJ as well for inspections?

[upsdude]

i've been busy the past few days learning the joys of zoning regs in my city and cities nearby. talking to people in the planning department and hearing them gasp a little at the prospect of a firearms business is pretty laughable...but sell some dildos? suuure the city's open for business!! LOL

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by upsdude

good point lol

edit: is it just atf that visits or is it CA DOJ as well for inspections?

Both agencies are allowed to visit you 24x7. However, typically you will see them every 1-3 years depending on your size/number of issues. We're in the middle of our ATF audit now. Past 2 have had very low issue counts so they are on a 2-3 year cycle with us.

DOJ we're on a 3-4 year cycle with, again, due to very low issues during previous audits.

Our local PD / city reserves the right to inspect as well. However, I don't expect they do that sort of thing unless there's bad issues going on and they are looking for stuff to shut you down.

[upsdude]

just an FYI for those who might not know already:

BOE has an option to print out your sellers permit once you open your account. they still mail them out if you want. phone number for the riverside office is 951-680-6400. I was able to speak to a real person without waiting an hour for a call back.

CA DOJ has an option to apply for your COE online(requires creating an account). once you get your ati you just fill in the fields. https://cfars.doj.ca.gov/login.do

fsc application site
https://fcs.doj.ca.gov/login.do;jses...O.fcs_worker09 Requires COE first

ATF field office-located in santa ana
714-347-9150
this office covers san bernardino county. not sure which other counties are covered, if any. chances are when you apply your IOI will be out of this office. they're pretty nice about getting status updates and answering questions.


oh and i guess a general tip: If you have to get a local firearms endorsement, find out if there is a certain person in the planning department that handles that, get his/her contact info and introduce yourself. If you can get something in writing from planning/zoning that your business will be allowed, it can save some time during the atf application process since the agent won't have to hunt down people in city hall for information.

also, i sent in my application to ATF at the middle to end of june, they started processing the application on 7/06, and i had my interview on 7/21. from what i've read atf usually calls to schedule, but in my case the agent just showed up. i wasn't there the first few times (i'm just doing a 'lease hold' so i don't even have the key to the property yet).

last i checked my license 'should' be in the mail, got the COE app done sent in and now it's on to the city to apply for the business license.

[kemasa]

The CFARS web site is quite interesting, it does not allow for a "-" in an email address, nor a "+", both of which are valid characters for email addresses. Then again, the DES system does not allow for a "-" for a serial number even though the BATF says that a "-" is part of the serial number. Also, it does not allow for a "&" in the model, even that some models have that part of the name, then you are supposed to sign it under penalty of perjury, so the comment field can be used for those issues.

[SevenRedP]

I want to apply for an FFL Class 3 ( Curios and Relics) so I can have ammunition shipped to me in Calif. I have reviewed the requirements for for the FFL 3, and it doesn't seem a big deal because I would not be selling anything. But I can't find anything about requirements in CA. For regular FFL, I need business license, store front, etc. Do I need to do anything in CA for a Class 3?

I have searched through this thread, and couldn't find anything about this. I have also gone over the CA DOJ web site, and they don't mention the Class 3 except in passing ( don't need a business license ).

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by SevenRedP

I want to apply for an FFL Class 3 ( Curios and Relics) so I can have ammunition shipped to me in Calif. I have reviewed the requirements for for the FFL 3, and it doesn't seem a big deal because I would not be selling anything. But I can't find anything about requirements in CA. For regular FFL, I need business license, store front, etc. Do I need to do anything in CA for a Class 3?

For CA you also need a CA DOJ COE for ammo and to be exempt from the waiting period for C&R firearms and to be exempt from the 1 in 30. It isn't a business, so the rest isn't needed.

[Librarian]

TTAG has an article today - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...to-get-an-ffl/

Aside from leaving out the CA-specific bits, does this seem correct?

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Librarian

TTAG has an article today - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...to-get-an-ffl/

Aside from leaving out the CA-specific bits, does this seem correct?

Pretty much accurate, although the IOI doesn't know the local stuff. Getting the FFL is the easy part, all of the state and local issues can vary from easy to near impossible or in some cases flat out impossible. Try opening a FFL business in the city of Los Angeles, for example. Then you need to learn all the laws and issues, which takes a lot and is ongoing.

It is kind of like saying it is easy to open a restaurant because it is easy to learn to cook.

[audiophil2]

A little vague on the home based aspect. ATF cannot inspect your entire home unless you make your entire home your business. You can designate specific areas and that is all they can enter without a warrant.

The gunshow thing is not entirely correct either. If I pull a gun out of inventory for personal use I can sell it privately after holding it for 1 year off the books. ATF recommends putting it back on the books but it is not required.

The article leaves out the business structure and all the pros and cons for each type that have a big impact on FFLs.

[ronlglock]

Originally Posted by audiophil2

A little vague on the home based aspect. ATF cannot inspect your entire home unless you make your entire home your business. You can designate specific areas and that is all they can enter without a warrant.

The gunshow thing is not entirely correct either. If I pull a gun out of inventory for personal use I can sell it privately after holding it for 1 year off the books. ATF recommends putting it back on the books but it is not required.

The article leaves out the business structure and all the pros and cons for each type that have a big impact on FFLs.

Too bad FFL01s can’t pull off roster firearms out of inventory for personal use.

Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms

I have heard of it happening. Maybe they changed their procedures. I am checking up on this story right now.

I just had my ATF visit for an FFL-01. The agent would not make an appointment until I emailed these documents to him:

• Local (city) business license. Mine does NOT have "good for the retail sales of firearms" but I applied as a consultant/evaluator.
• CA resale license
• Filed documents of incorporation (my company is an LLC)
• Statement from my landlord approving a firearms business (home-based, so I sent him my tax bill to prove ownership)

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by ronlglock

Too bad FFL01s can’t pull off roster firearms out of inventory for personal use.

Well, it depends on what you mean by that, but a FFL can use an inventory firearm, so a FFL could take an off-roster firearm and use it as a demo gun or other things, but it has to be documented where the firearm is. The FFL just can't transfer it to their personal collection in CA since FFLs are not exempt from the roster.

I just had my ATF visit for an FFL-01. The agent would not make an appointment until I emailed these documents to him:

• Local (city) business license. Mine does NOT have "good for the retail sales of firearms" but I applied as a consultant/evaluator.
• CA resale license
• Filed documents of incorporation (my company is an LLC)
• Statement from my landlord approving a firearms business (home-based, so I sent him my tax bill to prove ownership)

Some of that is a bit of a problem since many cities won't issue a business license unless the person has a FFL. It was a long time ago, but I think my FFL was issued without requiring anything and no inspection, but I could not make use of it until I got all of the permits/licenses. Things have changed though.

[ronlglock]

Librarian — Many of the links in the first post need to be updated to the new OAG website.

[RedPandaGear]

Originally Posted by Librarian

In ADDITION to Permits and Politics ...

The State has requirements for storage of firearms and ammunition, and local governments may add to these:
Penal Code 29141 describes a 'secure facility'; that's in with manufacturers (Division 7, Chapter 2), but also mentioned in
Penal Code 26890 regarding storage of inventory firearms by ordinary FFLs (Division 6, Chapter 2); 'secure facility' is not defined in that chapter.

retail has its own, slightly different from manufacture

PC 17110
As used in Section 26890, “secure facility” means a building that meets all of the following specifications:
...

[Nwrigala]

Has anyone been able to acquire a valid business license in the city of los angeles and if so was it home based or did you lease a location. I'd like to develop an e-commerce site an operate from my home but I seem to be hitting road block after road block.

Finally if LA City isn't an option are there neighboring cities that you would recommend.

[tcobtm]

Are there any home based FFL dealer in unincorporated Fresno County that can provide me with some information regarding the permits required by Fresno County to start my home based gun business?

[Nardo1895]

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