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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 05-12-2021, 9:46 AM
JoyfulJoker JoyfulJoker is offline
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Default Trigger pull weights

This is an experiment I did in response to a comment in a pulled thread that said “ the first thing they do in a shooting incident ( good or not) is check trigger pull weight.”

This was a result from the age old discussion about lots of conventional wisdom and allusions to not altering your CCW , but no one finding evidence of a single case where a modification was used to get a conviction in a good shoot. This conventional wisdom seems to have originated with Masaad Ayoob.

What this experiment shows is that just training with your gun alters it from the manufacturer’s original specification as it wears in. I train with my main CCW as often as I can for obvious reasons.

So I did an experiment because this is my CCW ( P-01). I have about 7,270 rounds through it and probably dry fired it 6000 x.

I had switched the factory hammer spring to 16# at about 4000 rounds to lighten the DA pull. At 5k , it was completely disassembled and polished . No other mods were made internally beside the hammer spring . Sights and grips were changed.

To show how much breaking the gun in affects trigger pull weight I did the following test measuring the different hammer springs I have:

My original new gun trigger pull weights were around : DA 9.5/ SA 3.5

16# hammer spring ( 3000 live rds on it): DA : 6.83 lbs SA :2.13 lbs

19# Wolff hammer spring ( new) : DA: 6.13/ SA 2.21

20 # original factory hammer spring ( 4000 live rounds through it)
DA: 6.13 / SA 2.42

New Wolff 20# hammer spring “factory replacement”
DA: 7.13 / SA :2.37


All of those numbers differ dramatically from the original trigger pull weight. My goal was always a 10,000 round trigger job.

How could this possibly be used against me or any CCW carrier in a good shoot? A Glock 19 with 15,000 rounds through it is going to be completely different gun than a Glock 19 with 1,500 rds through it.

Most defensive shooters train with their carry guns if their goal is proficiency.

Last edited by JoyfulJoker; 05-12-2021 at 9:49 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2021, 9:56 AM
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Most speculation around what WOULD happen after a SD shooting is mental masturbation.

I'm of the mind that if there is doubt on your SD, the prosecutor will use any and all means to get a conviction, including EVIL gun modifications that had no practical implications to the legitimacy of the shoot at all. So it, COULD be used against you.

If there's no doubt as to your SD claim, then any mods will be irrelevant, unlesssssssssss the prosecutor wants to argue that you violated your permit terms, invalidating it at the time of shoot, and pegging you with an unlawful carry charge - even if they believe your SD claim.

My position - if the mods help you shoot better and more proficiently, I'd rather that than a miss that means whatever prompted the SD continues - The good ol' 'I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6' argument.
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  #3  
Old 05-12-2021, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
Most speculation around what WOULD happen after a SD shooting is mental masturbation.



Agreed. We never seem to run out of speculations/threads on mods for SD/HD firearms.

One way to lay this to rest - cite an ACTUAL case, law, instructions, etc. on modifications. Anything else is, as mentioned above, mental masturbation.


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  #4  
Old 05-12-2021, 3:06 PM
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Trigger pull weight comes into equation only for AD/ND, if you meant to shoot in a self defense situation then it is a non-issue.
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Old 05-12-2021, 3:42 PM
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Tanks got in first...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker View Post
This is an experiment I did in response to a comment in a pulled thread that said “ the first thing they do in a shooting incident ( good or not) is check trigger pull weight.”
Not to relive that whole, ongoing, years-long discussion, but, in a self-defense shooting, trigger pull weight is irrelevant. By pleading self-defense, you've dropped all of the other defenses like, "accident", "equipment failure", etc.

You meant to shoot and you willfully shot.

The only thing that can really screw this up is if you tell the cops it was a mistake.
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Old 05-12-2021, 7:29 PM
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You guys recommend a company/model tool to measure trigger weights? I see them in videos sometimes and it’s typically a yellow rectangular gadget with an arm that pulls the trigger.
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  #7  
Old 05-12-2021, 9:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthracite View Post
You guys recommend a company/model tool to measure trigger weights? I see them in videos sometimes and it’s typically a yellow rectangular gadget with an arm that pulls the trigger.
Current article - https://thegunzone.com/best-trigger-pull-gauges/

As usual, somewhat dependent on budget and personal requirements.

Me? I do not own own, and have never used one.
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2021, 9:13 PM
JoyfulJoker JoyfulJoker is offline
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I’ve got number one , the Lyman. Thanks for the insights.
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  #9  
Old 05-12-2021, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Current article - https://thegunzone.com/best-trigger-pull-gauges/

As usual, somewhat dependent on budget and personal requirements.

Me? I do not own own, and have never used one.
Thank you Librarian!
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Old 05-13-2021, 6:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthracite View Post
You guys recommend a company/model tool to measure trigger weights? I see them in videos sometimes and it’s typically a yellow rectangular gadget with an arm that pulls the trigger.
Basically, you have two choices: Digital and Analog. Both are based on load resistance, but the digital gives you an electronic readout instead of a manual marker on the side of a tube.

Either works fine, with the major difference that the analogs don't measure as high a tension as the digitals and the digitals provide automated averaging and history logs.

Both have the same flaw in that your pull must be identical each time or you will get varied readings. The digitals often have an attachment or "shoe" designed to mitigate this. The digital gauges tout being accurate to 1/10 oz., but since your pull is completely dependent upon your placement of the gauge and your pulling process, this is pointless.

I've used the Wheeler (note: that will send you to Amazon) spring gauge for years and it meets most needs, measuring up to 8 lbs.

The article Librarian provided is a start, but really doesn't differentiate between the uses/choices...all ratings are above 4.5. If you read the Pros/Cons on each, they contradict each other and don't tell you anything.

One complains that a unit uses batteries, but two other units also use batteries, with no comment. The other comments are equally inane. They are little more than click-bait "content" meant to fill the space and provide a basis for you to click over to Amazon, which pays the GunZone a fee.

Here's perhaps a better look at the issue, but the links are also click bait onto Amazon.

Additional view
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2021, 7:20 AM
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Default What does an attorney say???

So here is what an actual attorney who specializes in Self Defense cases says about modifying triggers. Watch the video The trigger weight question starts at the 42 minute mark.

As I understand his response, it seems a bit nuanced (neither a flat "no", nor an "all clear, go do it"). Watch and draw your own conclusion. His CV is in the early part of the video.

There is also a question on loading your own self-defense ammo at the 31:45 mark.
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  #12  
Old 05-13-2021, 10:22 PM
anthracite anthracite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Basically, you have two choices: Digital and Analog. Both are based on load resistance, but the digital gives you an electronic readout instead of a manual marker on the side of a tube.

Either works fine, with the major difference that the analogs don't measure as high a tension as the digitals and the digitals provide automated averaging and history logs.

Both have the same flaw in that your pull must be identical each time or you will get varied readings. The digitals often have an attachment or "shoe" designed to mitigate this. The digital gauges tout being accurate to 1/10 oz., but since your pull is completely dependent upon your placement of the gauge and your pulling process, this is pointless.

I've used the Wheeler (note: that will send you to Amazon) spring gauge for years and it meets most needs, measuring up to 8 lbs.

The article Librarian provided is a start, but really doesn't differentiate between the uses/choices...all ratings are above 4.5. If you read the Pros/Cons on each, they contradict each other and don't tell you anything.

One complains that a unit uses batteries, but two other units also use batteries, with no comment. The other comments are equally inane. They are little more than click-bait "content" meant to fill the space and provide a basis for you to click over to Amazon, which pays the GunZone a fee.

Here's perhaps a better look at the issue, but the links are also click bait onto Amazon.

Additional view
Thank you for your thorough reply Dvrjon.

I also noticed that as well, mainly the CON: Batteries and others that have batteries not being docked for it.

I'll look into the links you provided too, can never have too much information.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2021, 6:35 AM
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Some issuing agencies have minimum trigger pull weight requirements because of their departmental policies.
^If their LEOs can not have it, then their permit holders are also not approved to have it.
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Old 05-14-2021, 8:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Some issuing agencies have minimum trigger pull weight requirements because of their departmental policies.
^If their LEOs can not have it, then their permit holders are also not approved to have it.
It seems such a policy would automatically eliminate many production guns? I am specifically thinking of 1911s, but also many DA/SA autos after their first shot or if carried cocked and locked like some Cz safety models.

And I guess consider yourself lucky if your IA does not require New York triggers on their department issued Glocks
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 05-14-2021 at 7:33 PM..
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2021, 12:21 PM
JoyfulJoker JoyfulJoker is offline
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Our IA ( Solano County) said grips and sight changes are fine , but no mods that change the pistol from the original manufacturer specifications.

As explained , just using your gun changes the spec as it breaks in. I see some people who shoot USPSA with their carry guns and have 15-20,000 rounds through them. Guaranteed that usage changes the trigger pull weight even with new factory standard springs ( trigger return, firing pin, hammer spring etc).

As has been said as Nauseum, a good shoot is a good shoot and one should have carry insurance in the case of a civil suit from a criminals family looking to cash in.
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