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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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Process for PPT of off-roster handguns
I'm finally getting out of the military and moving back to southern California. Unfortunately, I've been unsuccessful in getting a job lined up, so I'm looking to sell a few of the off-roster handguns I've collected over the years to hold me over until I find a job.
Pursuant to Penal Code sections 17000 and 27560, any person who moves into California with a firearm is considered a "Personal Firearm Importer" and is required by California law to do one of the following within 60 days: 1. Complete and submit a New Resident Report of Firearm Ownership (BOF 4010A), pdf along with $19.00 to the California Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms; 2. Sell or transfer the firearm to a California licensed firearms dealer or to another individual using a California licensed firearms dealer to conduct the transaction; or 3. Sell or transfer the firearm to a California police or sheriff's department. Persons choosing this option should contact the law enforcement agency for instructions prior to transporting the firearm to the agency. Since I'm looking to sell my guns, I want to avoid having to register them with the DOJ. I've looked at past threads in regards to option 2. Through my research on calguns, it sounds like I can simply conduct a PPT at an FFL within 60 days of moving back to CA without having to register my weapons. I spoke to an FFL over the phone today, and the individual told me that while it's perfectly legal to do this, there is a high chance that the transaction will be red-flagged and undergo an investigation. He told me that the better route would be to do option 1 and then conduct a PPT after. Are there any FFLs here who are familiar with this scenario. Specifically, have any of you dealt with a new resident trying to sell their off-roster handguns without registering them? I don't understand why my transfer would be red-flagged and investigated if the law clearly states that a transfer like this is legal? Any help/guidance will be greatly appreciated. Last edited by snoj; 04-30-2021 at 5:03 PM.. |
#4
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Your problem with the one that you called is that you told him more than he needs to know. Get your CA ID, list them for sale here on CalGuns. When you go to do the transfer all you need to do is say that you're the seller and give them your ID. Sign the paperwork and go home and do it all over again with the next one. Just remember K.I.S.S. Sent from my motorola one action using Tapatalk |
#5
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Member Shootsocal_dave is an FFL in Fullerton.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1549991
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Originally posted by Kestryll: It never fails to amuse me how people get outraged but fail to tell the whole story in their rants.... |
#8
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Unless they know you well and you know them well, NEVER explain anything to a CA FFL. Nothing good will ever come from it. Name rank and serial number, that's it. And never seek legal advice from a CA FFL. |
#9
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Focus on your California Drivers License first. That’s all you need. Don’t mention part 3 of your camping trip. Just hand it over and sign the form and walk out. Done deal. The FFL you talked too just doesn’t understand how things work other than being a procedure and legalistic paperwork monkey. In reality even that 60 day window isn’t a CDOJ top priority and nothing gets flagged because the CDOJ doesn’t check the Seller or even try to figure out the ownership history of a firearm. That would be a daunting task. (Impossible) The only thing that gets flagged is if the gun has been reported stolen but even then it’s just a letter in the mail. In the end, ALL the California Department of Justice wants is that gun to get Registered. That makes them Happy. Scroll down to our MARKETPLACE and put your guns up for sale. Good luck, welcome and Be Well Bob
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May the Bridges I burn light the way. Life Is Not About Waiting For The Storm To Pass - Its About Learning To Dance In The Rain. Fewer people are killed with all rifles each year (323 in 2011) than with shotguns (356), hammers and clubs (496), and hands and feet (728). |
#10
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I really appreciate all the helpful responses.
For those who've PM'd me or asked on this thread, I'm still trying to decide on what I'm selling, but off the top of my head I have a gen 5 G43x, G45, G48 all MOS except the 43x. I've also got the p365 SAS and the normal one and an M18. I have a few others, but I'm still deciding on what to sell. I'll post a more formal message when I get to CA. |
#11
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Considering the average gun shop clerk armchair commando you are likely to encounter especially in big box corporate stores that is amazing to me. |
#12
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Except that we need to weed out the possibility of that off roster gun being purchased as exempt from some of the limited LE exemptions recently created by the state.
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#14
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Isn't that more of a problem for the seller than the FFL? Have you ever heard of a FFL having problems because of it? One now defunct FFL I knew made you fill out a form certifying you were not one of the lower tier LEO's when doing a PPT.
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#15
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(a)(1) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year. (2) The failure to report to the Department of Justice in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (2) of subdivision (e) the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun obtained pursuant to paragraph (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (b) may be subject to a civil penalty not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000). (3) In addition to any criminal penalty provided in paragraph (1), the unlawful sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun obtained pursuant to paragraph (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (b) may be subject to a civil penalty not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000). (c)(1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) or (7) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section. (e)(1) The Department of Justice shall maintain a database of unsafe handguns obtained pursuant to paragraph (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (b). This requirement shall apply retroactively to include information in the department’s possession. The department may satisfy this requirement by maintaining this information in any existing firearm database that reasonably facilitates compliance with this subdivision. (2) A person or entity that is in possession of an unsafe handgun obtained pursuant to paragraph (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (b), shall notify the department of any sale or transfer of that handgun within 72 hours of the sale or transfer in a manner and format prescribed by the department. This requirement shall be deemed satisfied if the sale or transfer is processed through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 27545. A sale or transfer accomplished through an exception to Section 27545 is not exempt from this reporting requirement. (3) By no later than March 1, 2021, the department shall provide a notification to persons or entities possessing an unsafe handgun pursuant to paragraph (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (b) regarding the prohibitions on the sale or transfer of that handgun contained in this section. Thereafter, the department shall, upon notification of sale or transfer, provide the same notification to the purchaser or transferee of any unsafe handgun sold or transferred pursuant to those provisions.
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 05-01-2021 at 9:22 AM.. |
#16
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#17
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I think its pretty funny how customers feel the urge to demand how a store needs to be run. Do you guys ever give restaraunts and grovery stores the same scrutiny? |
#18
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As it's been said before; every dealer has the right to set their own rules. And every consumer has the right to how much they are willing to deal with and who they plan on giving their business to. |
#19
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Consumers are not going to get happier with the reactions from stores and their policies. edit: that doesn't mean CA FFL's are doing anything wrong, its just that the noose is getting tighter to how an FFL in CA has to face DOJ regulations and on top of that the scrutiny and understanding of the regulation by a DOJ auditor. Last edited by taperxz; 05-01-2021 at 10:17 AM.. |
#20
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Any dealer that makes me "unhappy" will not be getting any more of my business. And, as for your other question about how we treat other businesses like restaurants and grocery stores. I can't answer for everyone else but for me I scrutinize them even more, especially restaurants. I will judge them on the quality of the food. The taste of the food. The "value" of the meal. But what will put a restaurant on the do not fly list the fastest is the SERVICE. If I get bad service from them I will not be going back, for the most part. There is a restaurant that my wife and used to go to all the time, we're not close enough to go on a regular basis now. We loved the food and the service was great. They lost a couple of their servers and the service when down. I spoke to one of the owners one day and told him that if we didn't like his food so much that we would probably not be coming back because the service was lacking ever since the change in servers. Wouldn't you know, the next time we came back the service was completely different. Just a little "food for thought". |
#21
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Eventually, there won't be any gun stores left and you won't be able to pick and choose because there won't be anyone left. |
#22
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A CA FFL dealer that ends up processing this type of prohibited transfer can be fined up to $10,000 for doing it. [PC 32000(a)(3)] This would cause CA FFL dealers to implement procedures to ensure they do not process this type of transfer. ^Which may involving questioning if the persons involved with an off-Roster transfer are LEOs.
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"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 05-01-2021 at 12:36 PM.. |
#23
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Again all it takes is a simple question and a simple answer. Are you a LEO? If the answer is NO, there are no other questions needed. If the answer is yes, then by all means do what you need to do. |
#24
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I was wondering how long it would before you to brought out that said sack quote. If I had a nickle for every time I've heard that I'd have a couple of jars of nickles on my desk. I'm not the one living in the land of De Nile. Every dealer in the state of CA has exactly the same BS laws to deal with as a dealer. Every dealer in the state of CA has to deal with the inspectors from the DOJ, which I understand is only a few. So every dealer in "Bob's" area has to put up with whatever BS Bob wants them to put up with. It's how those dealers decide to do business that determines how they'll do in the long run. Consumers also have to put up with all the laws and restrictions placed on them. We also have the right to deal with those dealers that make it easier for us to deal with the BS we have to put up with. But unlike you and all the other dealers in the state. We as consumers have it a lot easier to walk away from a dealer who we don't like "their" policies. You don't have that luxury and it's too bad for you. But you know what they say: You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. Last edited by morrcarr67; 05-01-2021 at 1:51 PM.. |
#25
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People like you think you know so much until you look in the mirror and realize you are wrong. If i only asked them if they were LEO they could say NO. That doesn't mean they can sell the gun. What if they are retired? You see, theres a whole bunch of other questions to ask. |
#26
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Well gee whiz what if they lie about being a 2nd or 3rd tier LEO trying to sell an off roster gun acquired through their exemption via PPT?
Unless you have them in writing admitting it or recorded how will just asking protect you? |
#27
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#28
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And I have heard the question asked maybe 1 out of 100 PPTs if either party was LEO. In spite of what the law says, it seems not many on either side of the counter are interested. Exactly. It is a very simple exchange and does not involve your favorite color or where you got your first kiss etc. Last edited by SkyHawk; 05-01-2021 at 7:33 PM.. |
#29
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According to the PC, the dealer can get fined 10 grand and remember, this isn’t a court either. It’s DOJ telling you 10 grand or we shut down your DROS . Why do you even comment here? You’re not an FFL and you’re generally wrong in this forum.
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#30
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And, I'll repeat it and add a bit more to it. I'm not the one living in the land of De Nile. Every dealer in the state of CA has exactly the same BS laws to deal with as a dealer. Every dealer in the state of CA has to deal with the inspectors from the DOJ, which I understand is only a few. So every dealer in "Bob's" area has to put up with whatever BS Bob wants them to put up with. It's how those dealers decide to do business that determines how they'll do in the long run. Consumers also have to put up with all the laws and restrictions placed on them. We also have the right to deal with those dealers that make it easier for us to deal with the BS we have to put up with. But unlike you and all the other dealers in the state. We as consumers have it a lot easier to walk away from a dealer who we don't like "their" policies. You don't have that luxury and it's too bad for you. But you know what they say: You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. NEVER forget that any business needs customers more than the customers need them. |
#31
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You keep relying on “oh well, you knew going in” however you’re refusing to acknowledge the noose that keeps tightening around the necks of CA FFL’s. These laws will drive people out of business thus reducing your ability to choose. Soon, table tops will disappear and be declared illegal. It’s funny, I run into customers like you all the time everyday who think they know until I take the time to show them in correct. I KNOW MY BUSINESS. None of us know everything but I make it a point to find out what I don’t. How many conversations have you had with your DOJ rep or ATF rep? You guys all point to the PC but never can talk about the regulations that was allowed to be created by DOJ from that PC. You, many times don’t have access to the DOJ regulations or the opinion of those regulations by the DOJ rep. Even those vary. It’s never been about “knowing what we got into” it’s the ever changing regulations implemented. One example, a couple years ago the Colt National Match was found to be C&R. Try talking to a DOJ rep about that status. As in, “if you keep selling those, we won’t know about you getting your hi cap permit or CFD for that matter” Another rep may not say anything. I’m sure your reply will be to call a lawyer. My reply will be, how many of these 1911’s will I need to sell in order the pay for that lawyer. Seriously, most have no clue what it takes to run a business let alone a gun store. Sure, I enjoy it and do well. In this state though it’s the customers with certain attitudes that are a bigger problem to our 2A than DOJ at times. |
#32
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#33
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Please show me all these examples where I'm wrong and even if I am isn't this the place for you to show us how right you are and correct us? Anyways what are you truly doing then to protect yourself in this situation? Just verbally asking all PPT customers their LE status? |
#34
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If the answer is no, no further questions needed. What are the "whole bunch of other questions to ask" you keep referring to? |
#35
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Keep in mind too that these LE are perfectly OK to sell an off roster gun that they didn’t get through the exemption. Again, the real point is CA tightening the noose around CA FFL’s and most customers not understanding and screaming for their demands that they know better. When they don’t |
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