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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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Old 11-10-2019, 5:29 PM
kingfamous kingfamous is offline
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Default brandishing with a ccw

So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:44 PM
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There is a big difference between pulling your weapon on a perceived threat and brandishing. What you described is the former.

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Old 11-10-2019, 5:52 PM
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So pulling your weapon on any perceived threat without firing is ok? Thats what Im trying to find out. Brandishing may be the wrong term to use, your correct.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:55 PM
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One can hope presenting the weapon ends the threat, but you don't do that until you are ready to kill someone to safe your life or that of a loved one. When you look at it in that perspective you've reached a point where a brandishing charge is the least of your worries.

Showing your handgun as an escalation in a verbal confrontation would be an example of brandishing, and a bad idea all the way around.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Did they not discuss this in your CCW class?
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GlockN'Roll View Post
Did they not discuss this in your CCW class?
That crossed my mind as well, we went over it fairly extensively.
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Remembering that you need to inform your IA about the incident, under what circumstances are you legal to draw? You don't have to fire, but you need to be able to explain why you thought you could have fired to stop that threat.
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:36 PM
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- this is not the movies where guns are used as persuaders and for dramatic effect.

- if your gun comes out it means you need to stop a lethal threat to self or others

- in your hypothetical example, if a bad guy is coming at you with a knife, fast enough for you to draw in self defense, it means it's do or die time.. life of death

- if there is enough time/distance to play rock paper scissors cowboy standoff then your life is not in danger
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:47 PM
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21 foot rule?
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Skip_Dog View Post
21 foot rule?


Yes the Tueller Drill.

Bottom line however in response to the OPs question, is you need to be at the point that you legally can use deadly force if your going to draw your weapon.
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:50 PM
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Yes, they went over that. I remember them saying if you pull your weapon, fire it. I was wondering if you can pull your weapon to stop the threat at distance. so you cant. you just have to try to de escalate the situation verbally until it is life threatening
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:15 PM
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Yes, there are times when drawing and not firing your weapon are justified. Don't believe you have to shoot because you presented your CCW weapon. You are not a Ninja worrier of sorts. These situations are very complex and may happen in a very short period of time - that is what makes a civilian combat fight so complex. And remember, many others, of which were not there, will attempt to place all the blame on YOU.
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:30 PM
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Presenting as a form of intimidation is very different than as a form of second to last line of stopping the threat. It may be a fine line, but there is a line. That line may also mean life and death as well, though. If you both live, that line may be left in the perception of your IA or a jury.
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:36 PM
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Default brandishing with a ccw

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
- this is not the movies where guns are used as persuaders and for dramatic effect.



- if your gun comes out it means you need to stop a lethal threat to self or others



- in your hypothetical example, if a bad guy is coming at you with a knife, fast enough for you to draw in self defense, it means it's do or die time.. life of death



- if there is enough time/distance to play rock paper scissors cowboy standoff then your life is not in danger


Wrong. There are MANY scenarios outside the scope of what you just stated that justify the drawing of your handgun without shooting.

And just because you draw and don’t need to immediately fire certainly does not mean that your life is / was not in danger.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:17 AM
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....and if you pull your weapon......and do not use it......notify your issuing agency.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
Yes, they went over that. I remember them saying if you pull your weapon, fire it. I was wondering if you can pull your weapon to stop the threat at distance. so you cant. you just have to try to de escalate the situation verbally until it is life threatening
While I haven't taken a CCW class, I think the point is if you aren't in danger don't get into danger. Sometimes talking makes things worse.

If you are "de escalting until it is life threatening" then you aren't de escalating.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:48 AM
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If I ever had to draw my weapon in self defense and that act ended the threat I would want to do everything in my power to be the first one contacting Law Enforcement and getting my view of events on the record.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
While I haven't taken a CCW class, I think the point is if you aren't in danger don't get into danger. Sometimes talking makes things worse.

If you are "de escalting until it is life threatening" then you aren't de escalating.
Creampuff,

In any engagement between two or more persons, "De-escalation" requires the joint effort of the parties. It is impossible for one party alone to "De-escalate." That's an important point to make.

The poster that you responded to didn't claim that he would be "De-escalating" by his actions. The claim was that the he would "try" to de-escalate." There's a big difference between an action and the attempt to take the action. One party, acting alone, can make the effort. The efforts of both parties are needed for the effort to succeed.

A commander in my former agency, and an often quoted tactical expert, was fond of observing "a credible threat of lethal force is a non-lethal alternative."

You legal standing to employ deadly force is determined by the circumstances immediately before you pull the trigger, not at the point where you draw the weapon. That fact alone (and I can think of a lot of others) makes it very unwise to hold the position that one should fire if the weapon is drawn.

I can't tell you how many SWAT callouts (or cell extractions) have ended when the suspect decided to surrender just as the deputies were about to execute on their engagement plan. The commander was right, there's something about the immediacy of an unpleasant outcome that forces some to surrender.
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Last edited by RickD427; 11-11-2019 at 10:09 AM..
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:07 AM
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:29 PM
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:29 PM
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The fact alone that you did not have to shoot doesn't make it brandishing. Given the correct circumstances to deploy a firearm and you end up not shooting means you did your job in two ways...you convinced the bg to back down and you did not shoot someone who changed their mind, to me that shows good self control.
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:52 PM
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Pulling a weapon is not de-escalation. It means you have to defend someone's life.

Cops can pull weapons to de-escalate.

CCW should not.

As someone mentioned, it's a fine line that is better not to dance on...

Too many movies have idiots brandishing for power/persuasion.

Real life doesn't work that way...

Example:

- Robber pulls knife on gas station clerk.
- clerk pulls gun on robber..

- robber drops knife
- clerk still has unarmed robber at gunpoint

- robber then pulls a gun on clerk killing him in "self defense"

- yes its happened.. ie the brandisher getting shot by not de-brandishing quick enough

Dont brandish
Ccw is not for de-escilation
It is for life or death
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Old 11-11-2019, 3:33 PM
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The below is a cut and paste from California Penal Code section 417. Do a bit of on line research. Lot's of bad information and nonsense going around.

417.
(a) (1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30 days.

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:

Last edited by 003; 11-11-2019 at 3:37 PM..
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