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  #1  
Old 02-26-2021, 8:45 PM
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Default Get good with my .308, or buy a 300 Weatherby Magnum?

Hunters,


My nephew got his first elk last year. And he was entranced with the 300 Win Mag, so he now has a Benelli Lupo in the caliber. His elk was a cow, at 490 yards, he brought his Browning X-bolt Hells Canyon in 7mm-08. It was not shooting straight, so he borrowed the guides Sako in 300 Win Mag. One shot, the cow dropped like a sack of ****. He had to have a 300, LOL.
I have a Mauser M18, in .308 Winchester, that I plan to take on our cow elk this season in Evanston. I will be using 165gr TTSX at 2800fps. I am very proficient with the rifle out to 600 yards. The load will deliver 1440ft/lbs at 500 yards. Do I need a magnum? 300 WBY Mag specifically? Thoughts? A2
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Old 02-26-2021, 8:50 PM
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Use the most effective round to drop an Elk in its tracks to avoid having to track it. You already saw what 300 WM can do. 300 WBY is not always on every shelf.

You already saw what works.
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Old 02-26-2021, 8:57 PM
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Take your 308 since you know how well it shoots. It’s plenty good for any elk hunting.
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Old 02-26-2021, 9:20 PM
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Well 168gr AccuBond Long Range .308 at 2800fps, at 6100ft elevation is packing 1694ft/lbs of impact energy. Good shot placement, premium bonded bullet! Looks like a winner. A2
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Old 02-27-2021, 4:55 AM
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If the .308 was what I had in the cabinet and I was comfortable with it, that's what I would bring. If you're worried about how much energy gets delivered at the point of impact, get closer to your target.

I shot my middling sized elk with a friend's .300 WM after the scope on my .30-06 fell apart.

If you decide to use the TTSX bullets, remember your effective range is going to be limited by velocity at impact. Check the Barnes data but I think you need at least 1800 FPS for the bullet to properly open up and so that probably means you're limited to 400 yards or so.
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Old 02-27-2021, 4:58 AM
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Get a.300 wm T easier on the pocketbook unless you have dies. I have some if you need them. Remember a .308 is a .300 mag on stun.
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Old 02-27-2021, 8:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCM16A2 View Post
...... I will be using 165gr TTSX at 2800fps.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCM16A2 View Post
Well 168gr AccuBond Long Range .308 at 2800fps.....
Not to hijack the thread, but I'm curious..... what loads are you using to get 2,800fps out of a .308 with 165/168gr bullets? I'm guessing the TTSX can be pushed faster, but the AccuBond?

I ask, because I am currently working up loads for my Winchester Model 70, and with a 165gr Speer JSP I'm barely into 2,700fps with max charges of H4895.
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Old 02-27-2021, 9:15 AM
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The 308win will work fine.
I hunt elk with my 338win mag using 225gr Swift A-Frames. It is very deadly and I have taken a lot of animals here in the USA and in Africa with it. I would also hunt with my 6.5X300W using 140gr Swift A-Frames if I could get tags for both.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2021, 11:59 AM
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Big boss man,


I am using 46.5 gr of CFE223. Or 45.9 of BLC-2. A2
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2021, 12:32 PM
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I really like having the option to grab the .308 or .300wm. While there is some crossover in their capabilities it’s nice to have both. Plus you always need a backup rifle in camp for things like scope issues or problems finding ammo. I would not get the 300wby due to ammo scarceness.
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  #11  
Old 02-27-2021, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by USMCM16A2 View Post
Big boss man,


I am using 46.5 gr of CFE223. Or 45.9 of BLC-2. A2
Thank you, good to know. I have neither, but I just traded into a bunch of 150gr hunting bullets so I'll run those over the chrono and see what I get. Mule deer and pronghorn won't care that I downsized from 165gr to 150gr.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2021, 4:23 PM
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You definitely dont need it however the 300 is definitely a better elk round. I hate the nation that people always need to upgrade and spend thousands on gear to enjoy a hunt, so if that's you just use the 308. However, if you want to pickup a new gun this is a great excuse and will most definitely be a better suited elk round.

There is another thread going on right now about elk rounds that's worth a look.
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  #13  
Old 02-27-2021, 4:28 PM
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Last I checked, elk are not armored.
Beyond 400-500 yards, sure, anyone would want more power, but are you taking that shot?
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Old 02-27-2021, 5:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
If the .308 was what I had in the cabinet and I was comfortable with it, that's what I would bring. If you're worried about how much energy gets delivered at the point of impact, get closer to your target.

I shot my middling sized elk with a friend's .300 WM after the scope on my .30-06 fell apart.

If you decide to use the TTSX bullets, remember your effective range is going to be limited by velocity at impact. Check the Barnes data but I think you need at least 1800 FPS for the bullet to properly open up and so that probably means you're limited to 400 yards or so.
When I was considering going for an elk (tag) with a .308, I was going to limit myself to 200 yards. Any further, and I thought the margin for error would be too small.
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Old 02-27-2021, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Clip View Post
Last I checked, elk are not armored.
Beyond 400-500 yards, sure, anyone would want more power, but are you taking that shot?
400-500 isn’t that far of a shot for elk. It’s rough country and they don’t always come running in. Add that it’s a large target that will stand still it would be silly to plunk down a lot of money on a hunt and show up under gunned.

Now if you do this all the time and live local no biggie. Try again tomorrow. But when you travel a thousand miles I’d want to hedge my bets.
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2021, 6:20 PM
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Sometimes they do just walk right up!





When you shoot them in the neck with 308 they drop like a sack of potatoes.


Last edited by Epaphroditus; 02-27-2021 at 6:23 PM..
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  #17  
Old 02-27-2021, 6:27 PM
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But when you travel a thousand miles I’d want to hedge my bets.
#Truth
I've spend the money and those hours to have 10-15 seconds to take a shot.
I got ya.
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Old 02-27-2021, 6:57 PM
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Epaps elk farm. Haha.

I say buy the Sako 300 WM.
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  #19  
Old 02-27-2021, 10:31 PM
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Have a close friend who brings back an elk from his ranch in Idaho every year. From what I remember he's never taken one past 200 yards and he uses a .270.

Another vote for your awesome Mauser in .308
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2021, 7:16 AM
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I've taken elk with 308 Win and a 165 grain Hornady Interlock and a 30.06 with 180 grain Gameking but the furthest that I've shot one is at 175 yards. If I thought that I was going to be shooting bulls at 400 yards, I'd bring one of my magnums.
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  #21  
Old 03-01-2021, 1:22 AM
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I love 300wby have been shooting one for over 20yrs been a great round never shot an elk but have killed 20+ deer and 2 bear.
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2021, 1:41 PM
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You definitely don't need another rifle. But if you want one...

As for 500 yard shots on elk, that's some mighty fine shooting. But just a little woodsmanship could get you within half that distance.
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Old 03-01-2021, 2:19 PM
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I’ve seen a lot of elk killed over the last 10 years. None of them with 30 caliber bullets. I’ve seen 4 killed with what many would think were underpowered, including the biggest bodied bull of what I have seen. He was taken with a 6mm creedmoor. The bull was huge and aged between 12 and 15 years old. That shot was only a few hundred yards though. My wife took a cow elk this year at just shy of 700 yards with a 25 Creedmoor shooting a 131gr target bullet. The elk collapsed on the spot with one shot.

My point being, get what ever you want, but I wouldn’t worry too much about 308 vs 300 win mag unless shooting past 500 yards. And if your shooting past 500 yards, neither of those cartridges offer great wind drift for the recoil they deliver to the shooter when compared to many other cartridges in the same class.
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Old 03-01-2021, 2:24 PM
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Drop the copper and go with a heavy lead bullet
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Old 03-01-2021, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
I’ve seen a lot of elk killed over the last 10 years. None of them with 30 caliber bullets. I’ve seen 4 killed with what many would think were underpowered, including the biggest bodied bull of what I have seen. He was taken with a 6mm Creedmoor.
Have heard of people taking them with .257, .25-06 and even a .243, but I'm sure those were close range broadside shots.
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:30 AM
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Default Get good with my .308, or buy a 300 Weatherby Magnum?


Real Talk . I shot a Roosevelt Cow a couple years ago in the neck with a Barnes TTSX 168 gr. out of my .308 She was big . 400 lbs+ on the hoof. She didn’t take another step . Justsayin


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Old 03-02-2021, 4:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Get a.300 wm T easier on the pocketbook unless you have dies. I have some if you need them. Remember a .308 is a .300 mag on stun.
That's the key for .300 Weatherby--if you have dies and reload. If you're using factory ammo, then .308 ought to do it, or .300 Win Mag. But if you reload, .300 Weatherby's a fine round. Used Mark V's in good shape can be had for a good price, too.
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  #28  
Old 03-02-2021, 5:12 AM
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I talked to a New Mexico guide about calibers. He would always try to get customers to use his 308 Win and park their super magnum rifles. The reason was, the customers would flinch and miss with the big boomers, or hit outside a lethal area resulting in a long day trailing a badly wounded animal. He could and would get the customer close enough that launching a bullet at long distance was un needed, and, few people have enough marksmanship skills to hit at distance.

His wife would video the customer, and one of the most common shooting errors, leading to misses, was the customer looking over the scope, to see the animal fall, before the trigger was pulled.

You use the right bullet and get within 300 yards, the 308 Win will kill an elk just fine.
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Old 03-02-2021, 7:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojaveman View Post
Have heard of people taking them with .257, .25-06 and even a .243, but I'm sure those were close range broadside shots.
The elk was about 100 yards. The bull was quartering towards us. The bullet broke the onside shoulder and penetrated the length of the rib cage. I’m not sure if you read in my prior post, my wife took her cow at just shy of 700 yards this year with a cartridge that is the equivalent of a 257 Roberts (25 creedmoor). She took the high shoulder shot and dropped it in its tracks.

Rifles have much more power and lethality than many realize as long as good bullets are used.
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Old 03-02-2021, 7:47 AM
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I don't think it is one or the other, if you suck with the .308, the 300 WBY MAG isn't going to help, you will just miss a shot a lot faster.
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Old 03-02-2021, 4:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCM16A2 View Post
Hunters,


My nephew got his first elk last year. And he was entranced with the 300 Win Mag, so he now has a Benelli Lupo in the caliber. His elk was a cow, at 490 yards, he brought his Browning X-bolt Hells Canyon in 7mm-08. It was not shooting straight, so he borrowed the guides Sako in 300 Win Mag. One shot, the cow dropped like a sack of ****. He had to have a 300, LOL.
I have a Mauser M18, in .308 Winchester, that I plan to take on our cow elk this season in Evanston. I will be using 165gr TTSX at 2800fps. I am very proficient with the rifle out to 600 yards. The load will deliver 1440ft/lbs at 500 yards. Do I need a magnum? 300 WBY Mag specifically? Thoughts? A2
Do you have a backup rifle?
I personally think the 308 is weak and have always preferred the 30-06 or 300Win. A Battle Rifle in 308 is great, big game hunting not so much.
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Old 03-02-2021, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicoredneck View Post
The elk was about 100 yards. The bull was quartering towards us. The bullet broke the onside shoulder and penetrated the length of the rib cage. I’m not sure if you read in my prior post, my wife took her cow at just shy of 700 yards this year with a cartridge that is the equivalent of a 257 Roberts (25 creedmoor). She took the high shoulder shot and dropped it in its tracks.

Rifles have much more power and lethality than many realize as long as good bullets are used.
IMHO, that's an unethical shot. Too much chance of wounding.

What I'd say is a reasonable approach:

https://brycetowsley.com/hunting/whe...far-is-too-far
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Old 03-02-2021, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
IMHO, that's an unethical shot. Too much chance of wounding.

What I'd say is a reasonable approach:

https://brycetowsley.com/hunting/whe...far-is-too-far
Your welcome to your own opinion, but just curious, how many elk have you killed? In our opinion, developed through killing animals, the cartridge is more than adequate and with the 131gr bullets we used wouldn’t hesitate to take a bull out to 1000 yards given the shooting conditions made a hit certain.

Last edited by chicoredneck; 03-02-2021 at 8:32 PM..
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Old 03-03-2021, 3:31 AM
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Get good woth what you have AND buy a new rifle in 300 WM.
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Old 03-03-2021, 4:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
IMHO, that's an unethical shot. Too much chance of wounding.

What I'd say is a reasonable approach:

https://brycetowsley.com/hunting/whe...far-is-too-far

I agree that long distance shots are unethical because they will result in more wounded animals running off and dying suffering deaths. The link was interesting and the author should have spend more time on this point:

At 700 yards the .300 Winchester is down to 1,371 foot-pounds and the 6.5 Creedmoor has only 670 foot-pounds. .... In fact, with the velocity down to 1,580 ft/s for the 6.5 Creedmoor it is below the lower impact velocity threshold needed to insure positive expansion with most of the new super bullets.

The discussion ought not be bullet velocity at the muzzle, but bullet expansion at distance. Standard cup and core bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.

You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.

Take a look at bullet velocity with ballistic calculators and you will find most standard cartridges are above 1800 fps at 300 yards, a few magnum a little past 400 yards. Standard cup and core bullets are no better than FMJ's if they don't expand.

One of these days I am going to copy a section from Nash's book on cartridges. Nash, a pre WW2 writer, claims that the 30-40 Krag was one of the best game cartridges . A 30-40 tosses a 220 grain bullet at 2100 fps in a long barreled rifle. Not particularly impressive, but Nash claimed, the long bullet upset predictably and made a long, wide hole, and worked every time. Higher velocity bullets of the period made shallow wounds, or did not expand and made small through holes. For the time period, the long, soft 30-40 Krag bullets upset predictably, made a long, big hole, and were well thought of as game bullets.

And, iron sights kept shooting distances reasonable. Those Lyman 48S rear sights were much better than open sights, but when animals were too small to see over the post (or bead), hunters did not take the shot. I am going to say, period irons kept shots around 300 yards. But, the advent of cheap, high powered scopes, shooters think because they can see the man on the moon, they can hit him.



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Old 03-03-2021, 4:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire1 View Post
I agree that long distance shots are unethical because they will result in more wounded animals running off and dying suffering deaths. The link was interesting and the author should have spend more time on this point:

At 700 yards the .300 Winchester is down to 1,371 foot-pounds and the 6.5 Creedmoor has only 670 foot-pounds. .... In fact, with the velocity down to 1,580 ft/s for the 6.5 Creedmoor it is below the lower impact velocity threshold needed to insure positive expansion with most of the new super bullets.

The discussion ought not be bullet velocity at the muzzle, but bullet expansion at distance. Standard cup and core bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.

You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.

Take a look at bullet velocity with ballistic calculators and you will find most standard cartridges are above 1800 fps at 300 yards, a few magnum a little past 400 yards. Standard cup and core bullets are no better than FMJ's if they don't expand.

One of these days I am going to copy a section from Nash's book on cartridges. Nash, a pre WW2 writer, claims that the 30-40 Krag was one of the best game cartridges . A 30-40 tosses a 220 grain bullet at 2100 fps in a long barreled rifle. Not particularly impressive, but Nash claimed, the long bullet upset predictably and made a long, wide hole, and worked every time. Higher velocity bullets of the period made shallow wounds, or did not expand and made small through holes. For the time period, the long, soft 30-40 Krag bullets upset predictably, made a long, big hole, and were well thought of as game bullets.

And, iron sights kept shooting distances reasonable. Those Lyman 48S rear sights were much better than open sights, but when animals were too small to see over the post (or bead), hunters did not take the shot. I am going to say, period irons kept shots around 300 yards. But, the advent of cheap, high powered scopes, shooters think because they can see the man on the moon, they can hit him.



You give such great information and I agree with so much of what you are saying.
Then you go throw a few curveball statements.

I assure you not all long range hunters think a real animal is an arcade game animal.
Scopes have not created crazy hunters shooting at the moon.

Yes there are some hunters who might throw a Hail Mary shot at the chance to harvest, that can happen without a scope also.

Most hunters are extremely effective with their weapons and stay well within the limits of skill and Bullet performance.

A lot of Long range hunters are using 338 magnums.
I have not calculated the effective kill range on my 338-378 with 5,000 ft lbs at the muzzle.

Last edited by tsmithson; 03-03-2021 at 4:52 AM..
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Old 03-03-2021, 7:43 AM
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I agree that long distance shots are unethical because they will result in more wounded animals running off and dying suffering deaths. The link was interesting and the author should have spend more time on this point:

At 700 yards the .300 Winchester is down to 1,371 foot-pounds and the 6.5 Creedmoor has only 670 foot-pounds. .... In fact, with the velocity down to 1,580 ft/s for the 6.5 Creedmoor it is below the lower impact velocity threshold needed to insure positive expansion with most of the new super bullets.

The discussion ought not be bullet velocity at the muzzle, but bullet expansion at distance. Standard cup and core bullets don't expand below 1800 fps, so when the bullet drops below the speed of expansion, all you are doing is poking a small hole in a living creature. A bigger hole will promote blood loss and maybe clip a vital organ. I am of the opinion that shooting at animals at distances where the bullet does not expand is unethical because it increases the animal's suffering. Surely the long range types view animals as no different than video arcade targets. But animals are not video arcade targets. These are creatures that don't want to die, and they feel pain.

You notice, what you read in the press, they rarely conduct real ballistic tests. The writers may shoot at ballistic blocks at 25 yards and then brag about the 800, 1000, or even 2000 yard performance of the round. In my opinion, if they are going to claim the round is a great hunting round at 2000 yards, they ought to show bullet expansion at the 2000 yard bullet velocity. Of course, they don't, even though the programs exist which analyze tissue damage, the volume of damage, and the depth of penetration.

Take a look at bullet velocity with ballistic calculators and you will find most standard cartridges are above 1800 fps at 300 yards, a few magnum a little past 400 yards. Standard cup and core bullets are no better than FMJ's if they don't expand.

One of these days I am going to copy a section from Nash's book on cartridges. Nash, a pre WW2 writer, claims that the 30-40 Krag was one of the best game cartridges . A 30-40 tosses a 220 grain bullet at 2100 fps in a long barreled rifle. Not particularly impressive, but Nash claimed, the long bullet upset predictably and made a long, wide hole, and worked every time. Higher velocity bullets of the period made shallow wounds, or did not expand and made small through holes. For the time period, the long, soft 30-40 Krag bullets upset predictably, made a long, big hole, and were well thought of as game bullets.

And, iron sights kept shooting distances reasonable. Those Lyman 48S rear sights were much better than open sights, but when animals were too small to see over the post (or bead), hunters did not take the shot. I am going to say, period irons kept shots around 300 yards. But, the advent of cheap, high powered scopes, shooters think because they can see the man on the moon, they can hit him.



I've long enjoyed this site. The guy makes a living hunting/guiding and witnessed many more dead animals, explored their wounds, with a wide variety of calibers.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html

Peruse through and you won't find ANY cartridges recommend for elk size game at such extreme ranges.

Video game? Internet "hunting"? I was thinking remote drone strike where the "pilot" is in a different country, but yeh. The game becomes about the best distance finder, the best mil-dot scope, the best bullet drop app, a guess on the wind (since it's seldom constant over 700-1000 yards particularly in mountainous terrain), to attempt to light the bulb for a "hit". A "hit" is not a kill and certainly not a humane one on average.

I know there's some tremendous shooters with tremendous hardware hitting "F" class targets, etc. But a hit or a miss is just a score. With a live animal, "working it in" doesn't pass my efficacy test.

I'll admit I haven't killed a bunch of elk. But I've been a hunter for going on 50 years. I learned to respect my quarry. I've never come across any respectable authority/article that professes shooting elk at 1000 yards with a .257 Roberts.
And just because you can, doesn't mean you should..

I'd say learn to hunt better. Learn that it isn't all about how many animals you shoot. Learn that the experience is valuable even if you don't have that 6 pt bull hanging at dusk.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:55 AM
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I've long enjoyed this site. The guy makes a living hunting/guiding and witnessed many more dead animals, explored their wounds, with a wide variety of calibers.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html
That is a very interesting/informative site. Thanks for posting the link.
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:20 AM
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Nice link. Think I’m going to take a few pics like that for my own use.
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:38 AM
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Using the logic being followed by some in this thread, we should all be using recurve bows to hunt in order to be more sporting, but we shouldn’t because the energy delivered on target using archery equipment is only a few hundred pounds. There are those who say, but arrows and bullets are designed to wound differently so can’t be compared. I agree, and energy measurements is a poor indication of killing potential as demonstrated by comparing bullets to arrows. Bullets also vary vastly in how they are designed to function and wound.

There are a lot of contradictions that get made when someone tries to discuss morals, killing power, and energy when discussing hunting.

People should be allowed to hunt the way they want within the confines of the law and their own abilities free of judgement. Hunting is a sport and we all choose to partake for enjoyment and for many also food. The enjoyment of hunting may be derived from different methods for each individual. I personally enjoy hunting big open country and shooting animals at long range. I find it both fun and rewarding and am very successful. I have never lost an animal and have filled every tag over the last 10 years except 1, averaging 3 big game animals a year. One of my best friends is almost a strict archery hunter. We are both successful and enjoy hunting equally. Is one of us more right or moral than the other. No!

Last edited by chicoredneck; 03-03-2021 at 12:20 PM..
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