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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #41  
Old 05-22-2020, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Small studies equate to the same signal to noise as other small studies showing HCQ efficacy without zinc...
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...758v3.full.pdf

Again we're talking about a medication which has multiple paths to efficacy and some are deciding only one of those is possible without bothering to present any evidence demonstrating why that should be the case. Evidently you are one of those people, I ask why your claim should have merit. Why do you exclude other paths?
again, this is just noise unless you know if the patients had adequate levels of zinc already or not. the comorbidities that tend to complicate covid-19 also tend to have deficient zinc levels.
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  #42  
Old 05-22-2020, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Small studies equate to the same signal to noise as other small studies showing HCQ efficacy without zinc...
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...758v3.full.pdf

Again we're talking about a medication which has multiple paths to efficacy and some are deciding only one of those is possible without bothering to present any evidence demonstrating why that should be the case. Evidently you are one of those people, I ask why your claim should have merit. Why do you exclude other paths?

First, I don't trust anything coming out of China regarding this disease as far as I could throw you. They've lied from the start and have been lying ever since.

Looking at the study, and I am just perusing rather quickly, I see that the participants of the study were in rather low risk categories - the mean age was 44.7 (15.3) years. Is the mean 44.7 or 15.3 or is 15.3 the deviation? That is rather important to know and it is written rather confusing. There were just 62 people in this "study" that had COVID-19 but it is good to know that "none quit."

Hell, let me just jump right to the "conclusion."
Despite our small number of cases, the potential of HCQ in the treatment of COVID-19 has been partially confirmed. Considering that there is no better option at present, it is a promising practice to apply HCQ to COVID-19 under reasonable management. However, Large-scale clinical and basic research is still needed to clarify its specific mechanism and to continuously optimize the treatment plan.
Gee, I dunno, I just don't come across impressed with this paper whatsoever. It just seems to fall short in just about every department. If I were to post a study of just 62 people you would call it garbage.
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  #43  
Old 05-22-2020, 5:38 PM
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I am taking 50mg of zinc, 500 mg of vitamin C. and 50 mcg of D3 each night because I read it can help my immune system fight this virus. I also take 82mg of aspirin today because my DR recommends anyone over 40 to do that to help prevent a heart attack. After what I have read about zinc I will continue to take it even once this pandemic is over, it isn't expensive and other viruses will be around.

Zinc is already been shown to work against coronaviruses and SARS-COV-2. It does appear that HCQ may increase the efficacy purely through its ability to transport the zinc into cells. The only way I can understand Capo's focus on tests for the use of HCQ alone is that he wants failure at any cost when associated with that particular drug. I can only guess that the reasoning behind this is because Trump supports it. There is a lot of that and, as many have said, all we have to really do is forbid treatment of this disease with HCQ (perhaps we should eliminate zinc as well) and then the left will jump on that bandwagon immediately. Such is American as we live in today.
Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
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  #44  
Old 05-22-2020, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Thanks for that. What kind of heart issues? I don't have heart issues, and many Americans do not.

I'm not saying that people should some how acquire HCQ and take it on their own. It must be done with under a doctors care. But the damn drug is very safe! My wife was taking it for a while when working in India, and this is pretty standard, she suffered no side affects.

Why, wouldn't we give it as a prophylactic, to those exposed to family members with the disease, or to health workers, in order to potentially reduce additional infections? Many doctors already use it for this purpose.

This thing is tied up in BS politics.

Why is everyone so fixated on HCQ as a treatment instead of a prophylactic where we already have some reasonable idea that it is beneficial.

I would also be interested to know how long you can take HCQ and zinc with minimal problems. It looks like HCQ can be taken for long periods of time as it is used to treat some forms of arthritis.

If it is not dangerous why wouldn't we give it to some otherwise healthy older folks as a prophylactic if there is an outbreak near them? If its safe.

There is clearly too much political BS around this? Has use as a preventative measure been ruled out and for whom? If not why aren't we using it?
As the FDA approved the use of HCQ "off label" whether or not that treatment plan would be good for you is between you (or your wife) and your doctor. I would consider it prudent to add zinc to your diet which doesn't require a DRs RX. I don't think there is enough to know yet whether HCQ and zinc as a prophylactic is warranted for most people. I have heard that many DRs are using it, however, but they are at a much higher risk of contracting the disease than most of us.
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  #45  
Old 05-22-2020, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
Too bad. I responded to that crap study you linked to. Laughable to say the least.
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  #46  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
It is becoming clear the politics are coming from the self-proclaimed 'experts' under color of 'science'. It's also becoming clear that these 'scholarly studies' can be manipulated to arrive at any desired outcome.
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  #47  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:35 PM
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It is becoming clear the politics are coming from the self-proclaimed 'experts' under color of 'science'. It's also becoming clear that these 'scholarly studies' can be manipulated to arrive at any desired outcome.

Further that they not only can be but clearly are being manipulated.

I swear it's like trying to bet boxing.
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  #48  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:36 PM
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Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
Its the problem with the internet, theLBC / Den60 /sd_shooter / SAN compnerd of the world have equal.. no.. more “voice” since they will post their ignorance early and often and scream loudly that does not equate to expertise just verbosity.

I for one hope you will stay, just keep posting the data it is much appreciated (im sure by many more than myself as well).
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  #49  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:39 PM
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Its still amazing and odd to me that people are so invested in HC's failure; its not just capo its anyone that hates Trump; I'd think everyone would be happy if it helped. But alas some just will never be that way.
I would have bet which way this would lean before I even opened it up, given the author of the thread.
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  #50  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:39 PM
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Its still amazing and odd to me that people are so invested in HC's failure; its not just capo its anyone that hates Trump; I'd think everyone would be happy if it helped. But alas some just will never be that way.
If Trump said it was crap they would all be trying to prove it's awesome...
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  #51  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:40 PM
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If Trump said it was crap they would all be trying to prove it's awesome...
Bingo!
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  #52  
Old 05-22-2020, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by smashycrashy View Post
Its the problem with the internet, theLBC / Den60 /sd_shooter / SAN compnerd of the world have equal.. no.. more “voice” since they will post their ignorance early and often and scream loudly that does not equate to expertise just verbosity.

I for one hope you will stay, just keep posting the data it is much appreciated (im sure by many more than myself as well).

Yeah, when we post facts you all leave. Just look at the last "study" Capo posts in defense of his position. It is laughable and I point out why just like I point out why zinc is important when the use of HCQ and Zpak is concerned. Capo left because he got pwnd. Sorry if he couldn't man up.

Please feel free to argue against what I have said and posted links to support rather than call me "ignorant" because that is all you got. I expect I have forgotten more than you will ever know.

Capo starts a straw man thread knowing that those of us who responded to his other thread would respond, and why wouldn't we? He then complains because we call him on it and he becomes the "victim." LOL! He is being nothing but a drama queen.
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  #53  
Old 05-22-2020, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Thanks for that. What kind of heart issues? I don't have heart issues, and many Americans do not.

I'm not saying that people should some how acquire HCQ and take it on their own. It must be done with under a doctors care. But the damn drug is very safe! My wife was taking it for a while when working in India, and this is pretty standard, she suffered no side affects.

Why, wouldn't we give it as a prophylactic, to those exposed to family members with the disease, or to health workers, in order to potentially reduce additional infections? Many doctors already use it for this purpose.

This thing is tied up in BS politics.

Why is everyone so fixated on HCQ as a treatment instead of a prophylactic where we already have some reasonable idea that it is beneficial.

I would also be interested to know how long you can take HCQ and zinc with minimal problems. It looks like HCQ can be taken for long periods of time as it is used to treat some forms of arthritis.

If it is not dangerous why wouldn't we give it to some otherwise healthy older folks as a prophylactic if there is an outbreak near them? If its safe.

There is clearly too much political BS around this? Has use as a preventative measure been ruled out and for whom? If not why aren't we using it?
According to this guy, countries where HCQ is commonly taken as a prophylactic to keep from getting malaria have a much lower rate of COVID 19 infections.

Quote:
Top 40 Malaria countries:

212.24 malaria per thousand = 0.2 COVID-19 cases per million

Next 40 Malaria countries:

7.30 malaria per thousand = 10.1 COVID-19 cases per million

Remaining 154 (non-)Malaria countries:

0.00 malaria per thousand = 68.7 COVID-19 cases per million
https://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/03...ases-reported/
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  #54  
Old 05-22-2020, 8:24 PM
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According to this guy, countries where HCQ is commonly taken as a prophylactic to keep from getting malaria have a much lower rate of COVID 19 infections.



https://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/03...ases-reported/

That's a gem.
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  #55  
Old 05-22-2020, 8:34 PM
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I am taking 50mg of zinc, 500 mg of vitamin C.

Zinc is already been shown to work against coronaviruses and SARS-COV-2.
I looked at zinc quite extensively last year just as prophylactic against getting the regular cold, and then more in January regarding SARS CoV2. URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273967/"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273967/ [/URL]

A 1998 systematic review (which did not include a quantitative synthesis of data) suggested that zinc was beneficial in reducing the duration and severity of cold symptoms.4 A meta-analysis published in 2000 found that zinc was ineffective compared with placebo in reducing the likelihood that cold symptoms were present after 7 days.5 A meta-analysis published in June 2011 concluded that zinc lozenges reduce the duration of cold symptoms by 12% to 48%, but only at daily doses >75 mg.6

The problem, when I looked into this, (and I don't have the links right now) is that 75mg and up is quite strong, and perilously close to the dosage which has been shown to result in bad side effects, one of which is the permanent/ semi-permanent loss of smell. This is likely why you don't typically find zinc in dosages greater than 50mg. The zinc I have is 35mg; I haven't taken any. IIRC, the definitive zinc study used custom made zinc lozenges roughly around 95mg.

Have you noticed any nausea or loss of the sense of smell? and, for how long have you been taking your 50mg of zinc a day? I'm just curious.
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Old 05-22-2020, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by capo View Post
Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
So because someone disagrees with you and challenges the study you posted, it is not an honest discussion?
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  #57  
Old 05-23-2020, 5:56 AM
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Hypothesis with absolutely no evidence.

Provide evidence HCQ requires zinc to work. There are multiple studies demonstrating efficacy which don't require zinc supplements.
Here's a lot of info about zinc and the role of HCQ as a zinc ionophore. By a pulmonologist who is treating patients with Covid 19.

https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=medcram+zinc

It is not that HCQ requires zinc to work... as much as zinc greatly benefits from the action of HCQ to work well.

The doctor goes into great detail, taking you down to the molecular level, to understand how zinc blocks and disrupts the virus' replication, IF it can get inside the cell where that function is of value. He also documents HCQ as being effective as a zinc ionophore and discussed other substances such as quercetin that perform that function also. Lots of pictures/diagrams for illustration.


The info is there, all you have to do is look.
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  #58  
Old 05-23-2020, 6:24 AM
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.... But the damn drug is very safe! ...
of course it is... redhats are flocking to get this drug.

Dr. Trump's ok is all they seem to need.
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:36 AM
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of course it is... redhats are flocking to get this drug.

Dr. Trump's ok is all they seem to need.

I think you people should ignore how often the President has turned out to have been right all along and stick to your guns.
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  #60  
Old 05-23-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by duenor View Post
I looked at zinc quite extensively last year just as prophylactic against getting the regular cold, and then more in January regarding SARS CoV2. URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273967/"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273967/ [/URL]

A 1998 systematic review (which did not include a quantitative synthesis of data) suggested that zinc was beneficial in reducing the duration and severity of cold symptoms.4 A meta-analysis published in 2000 found that zinc was ineffective compared with placebo in reducing the likelihood that cold symptoms were present after 7 days.5 A meta-analysis published in June 2011 concluded that zinc lozenges reduce the duration of cold symptoms by 12% to 48%, but only at daily doses >75 mg.6

The problem, when I looked into this, (and I don't have the links right now) is that 75mg and up is quite strong, and perilously close to the dosage which has been shown to result in bad side effects, one of which is the permanent/ semi-permanent loss of smell. This is likely why you don't typically find zinc in dosages greater than 50mg. The zinc I have is 35mg; I haven't taken any. IIRC, the definitive zinc study used custom made zinc lozenges roughly around 95mg.

Have you noticed any nausea or loss of the sense of smell? and, for how long have you been taking your 50mg of zinc a day? I'm just curious.
No to both. First the loss of smell seems to be due to zinc containing nasal sprays or gels and not when the drug is taken orally. The loss of the sense of taste seems to be in relation to the use of lozenges. That is really only recommended when you start showing cold symptoms. No nausea. I have always had a touchy GI system but actually have been less symptomatic since adding zinc. I've been on it about 3 weeks so far.

The dosage in lozenges vary from about 10-13.3 mg from what I have read. You take them every 2-4 hours. I have read that, for the serious side effects you mention, it generally is due to ingesting mass dosages of supplemental zinc - recommended dosage for treatment of acne is 30-150 mg and I have seen dosage recommendations of greater than 220mg for different conditions. So I believe 50 mg is inside the safe margin to keep the body loaded with zinc while the addition of lozenges in an acute case safe for a short period of time and unlikely to cause any serious issues.

As to the test you cite and in regards to dosage, I once asked my doctor about the 82mg daily dosage of aspirin once a day was enough for heart attack prevention, what about twice per day? He said that was the only dosage they tested at so there was no data as to whether doubling the dosage would be more effective. He did say that some people do not tolerate aspirin very well which may be why they didn't test at higher dosages.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:41 PM
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:42 PM
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of course it is... redhats are flocking to get this drug.

Dr. Trump's ok is all they seem to need.

You do realize that it requires a doctor to prescribe, right?
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:43 PM
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Here's a lot of info about zinc and the role of HCQ as a zinc ionophore. By a pulmonologist who is treating patients with Covid 19.

https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=medcram+zinc

It is not that HCQ requires zinc to work... as much as zinc greatly benefits from the action of HCQ to work well.

The doctor goes into great detail, taking you down to the molecular level, to understand how zinc blocks and disrupts the virus' replication, IF it can get inside the cell where that function is of value. He also documents HCQ as being effective as a zinc ionophore and discussed other substances such as quercetin that perform that function also. Lots of pictures/diagrams for illustration.


The info is there, all you have to do is look.
He gone, dude. Took his ball and left the playground.
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Old 05-23-2020, 2:16 PM
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So now all the combined registry information across 6 continents including all the clinical studies you'd like to cite showing HCQ effectiveness are fraudulent? What makes you conclude that?
You know why they conclude that - this is politics not science - if you question the effectiveness of "the cure" your the enemy no-mater what the science says.
you can not question anything the PREZ has said...

To be honest -out in the real world this is the same for both sides of the question - if you believe works or question same they automatically will place you in a group - science be damned.
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Old 05-23-2020, 3:00 PM
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If the studies don't include Zinc, then they mean nothing. Interestingly, there seems to be an effort to scrub that info. On the MedCram YouTube channel they removed Update 71, which happens to be the one where he shows a study that when Zinc is included with HCQ, the death rate is cut in half when given before they have to go to the ICU.

https://www.youtube.com/user/MEDCRAMvideos/videos
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Old 05-23-2020, 3:23 PM
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You do realize that it requires a doctor to prescribe, right?
And you realize there are thousands of"script DRs" who will write a RX for almost anything(see opium RX problem) for the cost of a office visit (cash)

Ad to that the number of family MDs who will feel pressured to write a RX because of pts demands and getting a RX for it is not a problem

Add the MDs who are trying to make a name for themselves
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Old 05-23-2020, 3:35 PM
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Then you have lost objectivity and have decided politics should be your science of choice.

Sad yet predictable. This forum is lost to honest discussion and the moderators completely inept at refocusing it. I'm officially done, will never post again and you have my thanks for divorcing myself from these proceedings.
Thanks for the effort -
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Old 05-23-2020, 4:20 PM
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And you realize there are thousands of"script DRs" who will write a RX for almost anything(see opium RX problem) for the cost of a office visit (cash)

Ad to that the number of family MDs who will feel pressured to write a RX because of pts demands and getting a RX for it is not a problem

Add the MDs who are trying to make a name for themselves

Hmm, good to know. I have never run across those types of doctors, I suppose because I do take some responsibility for ensuring I am getting the best healthcare I can get.

As I have said, the decision to use HCQ in combination with whatever other drugs or minerals needed for a healthy immune system should be between you and your doctor. If you chose a doctor who would willing give you drugs you don't need then that is on you as much it is on the doctor you chose to employ.
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Old 05-23-2020, 4:21 PM
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Thanks for the effort -
He gone, dude.
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Old 05-23-2020, 5:03 PM
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Hmm, good to know. I have never run across those types of doctors, I suppose because I do take some responsibility for ensuring I am getting the best healthcare I can get.

As I have said, the decision to use HCQ in combination with whatever other drugs or minerals needed for a healthy immune system should be between you and your doctor. If you chose a doctor who would willing give you drugs you don't need then that is on you as much it is on the doctor you chose to employ.
I really don't need a lecture on ethics - thanks anyway - I just pointed out that a RX is not a hindrance to getting HCQ
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Old 05-23-2020, 5:07 PM
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I really don't need a lecture on ethics - thanks anyway - I just pointed out that a RX is not a hindrance to getting HCQ
And how is that a bad thing?
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Old 05-23-2020, 5:17 PM
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I really don't need a lecture on ethics - thanks anyway - I just pointed out that a RX is not a hindrance to getting HCQ
And I don't really need a lecture on irresponsible people who would seek out a "script DR." I would think they deserve the "care" they demand. I would say, though, people like that are a significant minority.
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Old 05-23-2020, 5:29 PM
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And how is that a bad thing?
Didn't make any judgement - just pointing out that needing RX is not a good screening argument
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Old 05-23-2020, 6:54 PM
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Didn't make any judgement - just pointing out that needing RX is not a good screening argument
Well, frankly, it is.
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Old 05-23-2020, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SW1917 View Post
And you realize there are thousands of"script DRs" who will write a RX for almost anything(see opium RX problem) for the cost of a office visit (cash)

Ad to that the number of family MDs who will feel pressured to write a RX because of pts demands and getting a RX for it is not a problem

Add the MDs who are trying to make a name for themselves

Not to mention all the doctors and other first responders already taking it.

Curious to see just how bad orange man is,

lefties may just stick to their princ........ no that won't work.
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Old 05-25-2020, 1:56 PM
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Its the problem with the internet, theLBC / Den60 /sd_shooter / SAN compnerd of the world have equal.. no.. more “voice” since they will post their ignorance early and often and scream loudly that does not equate to expertise just verbosity.

I for one hope you will stay, just keep posting the data it is much appreciated (im sure by many more than myself as well).
That's a weird way of saying "I don't care what the truth is, I just like the controversy".
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When the middle east descends into complete chaos in 2-3 years due in part to the actions of this administration I'll necro post about how clueless I was.
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Old 05-25-2020, 1:57 PM
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Dr. Raoult responds to the Lancet 'study'. To those who claim to be more 'authoritative', please give a brief explanation as to why you think this doctor would put his reputation on the line WRT HCQ? What is his motivation here? If you believe what he says is not true, why do you think he would be trying to lie to the world about this treatment?

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One of these studies, published in the Lancet,even identified a toxicity of chloroquine derivatives with a mortality multiplied by 3, and a cardiac toxicity leading to ventricular tachycardia in 8% of patients (Mehra, 2020). Here at the IHU, we have treated and followed more than 3,500 patients ourselves by dual therapy (hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin) with a very detailed protocol (Million, 2020), we have never observed mortality and cardiac toxicity compatible with the data reported in this study based on patient record registers (Million, 2020). On more than 1000 unselected infected patients of all ages treated with hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin according to a detailed standardized therapeutic protocol (Million, 2020),8 deaths (74 to 95 years) were identified (8/1061) with 0% mortality before 70 years (0/995 - 95% confidence interval according to Wilson 0 - 3.73%) and a mortality of 12% (8 / 66 - CI95% 6.3 - 22.1) in those aged 70 and over. No ventricular tachycardiade novo was observed. These results are not compatible (p <10 -7 ) with those reported by analysis of a recent database (mortality of all ages, 1479/6221 - 23.8% - 95% CI 22.7 to 24.8) (Mehra, 2020).
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We are communicating today this very preliminary analysis to allow everyone to judge with the elements that seem relevant since, in real life, we are not dealing with databases but humans. Without neglecting the theoretical potential of big data, it is time to put clinical expertise back at the center of medical research to treat real people.


https://translate.google.com/transla...nde-medical%2F
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When the middle east descends into complete chaos in 2-3 years due in part to the actions of this administration I'll necro post about how clueless I was.

Last edited by SAN compnerd; 05-25-2020 at 2:01 PM..
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Old 05-25-2020, 4:16 PM
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