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  #361  
Old 07-10-2018, 4:52 PM
BucDan BucDan is offline
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1. Thanks, I was getting at subsection A of 30945 where I would get permission from my girlfriend to leave it at her house as sometimes I sleep over at her house and leave it there to go to work, where I would then pick it up the next day or upcoming weekend.

2 & 3. Thanks, cleared it up.
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  #362  
Old 07-10-2018, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BucDan View Post
1. Thanks, I was getting at subsection A of 30945 where I would get permission from my girlfriend to leave it at her house as sometimes I sleep over at her house and leave it there to go to work, where I would then pick it up the next day or upcoming weekend.
You can not legally store ANY gun at her house due to the new laws restricting lending firearms.
Previously, it would be a "loan" for only 30 days, then it would become an unlawful transfer.
Now, if she has access to it when you are not present (outside of your home) it would require an FFL PPT transfer.
Yes... the new law actually requires a transfer, BG check, and 10 day wait for a LOAN!
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #363  
Old 07-10-2018, 9:59 PM
BucDan BucDan is offline
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Is it considered lending, though? It says that storage is okay with permission, which doesn't read as "to lend" to me. She wouldn't have access if I lock the case and take the key.

I'm conflicted now, Librarian says one thing, and you Coke say another.

EDIT: Reread it, it says possession, not storage. I guess if I'm not at her house with the AW, it isn't considered possession. Sucks, oh well.

Good to know about the storage rules though. I was considering leaving a handgun there in a locked carrying case for myself and for her as a repeated lend for her own protection. I guess that's out of the picture, too.

Last edited by BucDan; 07-10-2018 at 10:03 PM..
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  #364  
Old 07-11-2018, 7:53 AM
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What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
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  #365  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:10 AM
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What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
When I hear stuff like this it always reminds me of the "dead hooker in the trunk" analogy. The other thing that comes to mind is "Schrodingers (sp) Cat", the cops will never know what's in your trunk until they open it.
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  #366  
Old 07-11-2018, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smedkcuf View Post
What about if you go to the range with a RAW and then drive to a friend's house to keep them there for a few hours until going home? Assuming it's in a locked case and I was there the entire time. Would this violate the transportation restriction?
By the letter of the law, you must travel directly between locations where possession or use is legal.
That would preclude stops at McD's, IMHO, you would be legal at a private residence.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #367  
Old 07-12-2018, 9:27 AM
skwurl047 skwurl047 is offline
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Registered my RAWs with my current address but planning on moving into my girlfriends house very soon. Can I keep my gun safe and RAWs at her place once i move in so long as I'm the only one with access to the safe?
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  #368  
Old 07-12-2018, 6:56 PM
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Registered my RAWs with my current address but planning on moving into my girlfriends house very soon. Can I keep my gun safe and RAWs at her place once i move in so long as I'm the only one with access to the safe?
Yep.
No requirement to notify DOJ if you move.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #369  
Old 07-13-2018, 3:52 PM
jcnyct jcnyct is offline
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I've read all sorts of answers here on safe storage of BBRAW at home.. I get the part that BBRAW can only be accessible to person it's registered to

- for someone who moved into CA with firearms and didn't have to go thru long gun safe requirements at purchase.. is a California DOJ approved safe or cable lock the only acceptable way to store a BBRAW?
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  #370  
Old 07-13-2018, 5:37 PM
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Default What you can/cannot or must do with Registered Assault Weapons (RAW)

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Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I've read all sorts of answers here on safe storage of BBRAW at home.. I get the part that BBRAW can only be accessible to person it's registered to

- for someone who moved into CA with firearms and didn't have to go thru long gun safe requirements at purchase.. is a California DOJ approved safe or cable lock the only acceptable way to store a BBRAW?


A cable lock is NOT sufficient, it still allows possession even if it is deactivated by the lock. You must prevent possession of the RAW by anyone who is not a registrant. A locked box, even a plastic rifle case is sufficient for transport. There is no case law defining whether any particular safe is adequate but there are DOJ approved containers meeting at least RSC (residential security container). Most people with entry level safes in the <$1000 range do not have that and are probably ok, maybe not, no law to say.

If I did not have a safe yet, I would at minimum use a closing and lockable plastic rifle case. And shop for a safe asap. Maybe even with paper trail to show you were attempting to meet that requirement if you got into a court case on the issue.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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Last edited by lordmorgul; 07-13-2018 at 5:39 PM..
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  #371  
Old 07-14-2018, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
A cable lock is NOT sufficient, it still allows possession even if it is deactivated by the lock. You must prevent possession of the RAW by anyone who is not a registrant. A locked box, even a plastic rifle case is sufficient for transport. There is no case law defining whether any particular safe is adequate but there are DOJ approved containers meeting at least RSC (residential security container). Most people with entry level safes in the <$1000 range do not have that and are probably ok, maybe not, no law to say.

If I did not have a safe yet, I would at minimum use a closing and lockable plastic rifle case. And shop for a safe asap. Maybe even with paper trail to show you were attempting to meet that requirement if you got into a court case on the issue.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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I appreciate your help.

but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only

safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe

plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock

I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?
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  #372  
Old 07-14-2018, 6:17 AM
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DOJ isn’t going to be testing and approving every single storage product. There is no requirement to have everything ‘DOJ approved’. And you don’t always need a ‘safe’. You can be creative. A locked room with its own key. A locking cabinet.

Not quite sure on a locking case. Someone can easily take possession of a locking case to unlock at another place and time. Not saying this for legal reasons but personal protection of your property.
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  #373  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I appreciate your help.



but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only



safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe



plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock



I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?


Quote:
Beginning July 1, 2001, the California Department of Justice shall compile, publish, and maintain a roster listing all of the firearm safety devices (FSD) that have been tested by a certified testing laboratory, have been determined to meet the department’s standards for firearm safety devices, and may be sold in this state (for storing pistols and long guns). Firearm safety devices used for random sample testing are obtained from sources other than the manufacturer.

It relates to the sale or the firearm, or the sale of the safety device... not the use of the safety device by the buyer. It’s not a recommendation, it is a test passed before allowing sale of the device without putting warnings on it that the test was passed. See this:
http://www.locksmithledger.com/artic...e-requirements

Quote:
Originally Posted by locksmithledger.com
The idea behind the California Department Of Justice (CDOJ) certification for FSD was to protect children by keeping weapons out of their hands.

Since Jan. 1, 2003, Firearm Safety Devices, which include gun safes without either the UL RSC Listing or CDOJ certification, may not be sold in California for storing pistols and long guns.

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  #374  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:17 AM
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As it relates to RAW, there is no requirement that you use DOJ approved containers, but doing so would possibly make a legal defense of having prevented possession by an unregistered person to the best of your abilities.

If someone breaks into your locked container to gain access, no matter how easy that was... they have violated the law not you.


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  #375  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I appreciate your help.
but that's my question.. putting transportation aside.. for home storage only
safe - if you buy the safe, does it have to be a DOJ approved safe
plastic rifle case - does it have to be locked with DOJ approved lock

I guess the better question is.. are DOJ approved safes/locks/etc just what they recommend you buy? Are you required legally to only use DOJ approved items when it comes to home storage?
DOJ certified storage/safety device requirements relate directly to FFL sales/transfers. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN
Quote:
23635.
(a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice’s roster of approved firearm safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device
Access to unauthorized persons is spelled out in PEN 25135. Arguably, if you take actions to preclude other prohibited residents (if present) from having access to the gun, you will be in reasonably good shape should someone not prohibited reside there or if someone illegally enters your residence.: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=25135.
Quote:
25135.
(a) A person who is 18 years of age or older, and who is the owner, lessee, renter, or other legal occupant of a residence, who owns a firearm and who knows or has reason to know that another person also residing therein is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm shall not keep in that residence any firearm that he or she owns unless one of the following applies:
(1) The firearm is maintained within a locked container.
(2) The firearm is disabled by a firearm safety device.
(3) The firearm is maintained within a locked gun safe.
(4) The firearm is maintained within a locked trunk.
(5) The firearm is locked with a locking device as described in Section 16860, which has rendered the firearm inoperable.
(6) The firearm is carried on the person or within close enough proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use the firearm as if carried on the person.
(b) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(c) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and do not restrict the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by different provisions of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.

16860. As used in Sections 16850, 25105, and 25205, “locking device” means a device that is designed to prevent a firearm from functioning and, when applied to the firearm, renders the firearm inoperable. (http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN)
It’s up to you to decide what level of comfort you need when managing the risk of storing your guns. But, guns which can’t be seen are less likely to disappear. And guns locked inside a secure container can’t easily walk away.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 07-14-2018 at 7:57 AM..
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  #376  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
It relates to the sale or the firearm, or the sale of the safety device... not the use of the safety device by the buyer. It’s not a recommendation, it is a test passed before allowing sale of the device without putting warnings on it that the test was passed. See this:
http://www.locksmithledger.com/artic...e-requirements




Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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sorry I might get a bit annoying with these questions but wow are these CA gun laws full circles..

so for someone who moved to CA with firearms let's say in 2014 - there's no legal requirement to have these DOJ aprroved safety devices? Firearms weren't purchased in CA.

I ask this because as I understand it, for someone who bought a BB-AR-15 in CA in 2014 and signed the safe affidavit.. that person legally has to have that DOJ approved safe.. right?
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  #377  
Old 07-14-2018, 7:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
As it relates to RAW, there is no requirement that you use DOJ approved containers, but doing so would possibly make a legal defense of having prevented possession by an unregistered person to the best of your abilities.

If someone breaks into your locked container to gain access, no matter how easy that was... they have violated the law not you.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.

But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?
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  #378  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
sorry I might get a bit annoying with these questions but wow are these CA gun laws full circles..

so for someone who moved to CA with firearms let's say in 2014 - there's no legal requirement to have these DOJ aprroved safety devices? Firearms weren't purchased in CA.

I ask this because as I understand it, for someone who bought a BB-AR-15 in CA in 2014 and signed the safe affidavit.. that person legally has to have that DOJ approved safe.. right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.

But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?
Let’s say you sold the AR in 2015. Do you still need to possess the safe?

No.

The statute (Posted above) says the safe or storage device is required for the FFL to make the transfer. Once they have that assertion, they’re done.

The affidavit is dated and states you had the safe on the specific date of transfer. It doesn’t state you’ll keep the safe forever. What if you sold the earlier safe and bought a better one?

What you do with your property and how you store it is your business...and your responsibility. If you decide to sell your safe and store your gun under your mattress, you can. You can also be found guilty of criminal storage of a firearm.
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  #379  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
I understand a RAW doesn't have required DOJ approved containers.



But let's say you bought a BB-AR15 in 2014 and signed the affidavit saying you have the DOJ approved safe. Then you registered that same BB-AR15 into a RAW in 2018.. wouldn't you legally still be required to have that DOJ approved safe?


At the time when you signed the safe affidavit.. you had to have a safe, that was to absolve the FFL from responsibility to sell you a cable lock. Now, it doesn’t matter either way.

You do not have to keep the little cable locks that are sold with guns either.

If you don’t have a safe and you do have kids present in the house at any time, the cable locks are a useful way to meet the requirement to keep working firearms disabled or locked out of children’s possession. But how you must do that is not specified.


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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  #380  
Old 07-14-2018, 8:46 AM
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No one is going to bother you about it unless your kids or guests end up hurting someone with your guns. Make sure that never happens and stop worrying so much about the fine print.
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  #381  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
DOJ certified storage/safety device requirements relate directly to FFL sales/transfers. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN
Important to remember that firearm storage devices are not unlike the assault weapon laws. They are "approved" by name OR by characteristic.
I'd go so far as to say that the majority of gun safes available are not listed by CA... and honestly, the majority of what IS listed is more suitable as an ammo cabinet than it is as a gun storage cabinet.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:34 AM
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thank you.. I appreciate everyone's help.

sounds like the whole idea of DOJ approved devices in the long run means nothing
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jcnyct View Post
thank you.. I appreciate everyone's help.

sounds like the whole idea of DOJ approved devices in the long run means nothing
Remember, it’s NOT the DOJ. It’s the Progressives (and some R’s) in the Legislature that brought us these insignificant, feel-good measures.
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  #384  
Old 07-14-2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Important to remember that firearm storage devices are not unlike the assault weapon laws. They are "approved" by name OR by characteristic.
I'd go so far as to say that the majority of gun safes available are not listed by CA... and honestly, the majority of what IS listed is more suitable as an ammo cabinet than it is as a gun storage cabinet.
Safes are subject to regulatory specifications:

11 CCR § 4100. https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...ta=(sc.Default)
Quote:
§ 4100. Gun Safe Standards.
An acceptable gun safe is either one the following:
(a) A gun safe that meets all of the following standards:
(1) Shall be able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage.
(2) Shall have a locking system consisting of at minimum a mechanical or electronic combination lock. The mechanical or electronic combination lock utilized by the safe shall have at least 10,000 possible combinations consisting of a minimum three numbers, letters, or symbols. The lock shall be protected by a case-hardened (Rc 60+) drill-resistant steel plate, or drill-resistant material of equivalent strength.
(3) Boltwork shall consist of a minimum of three steel locking bolts of at least 1/2-inch thickness that intrude from the door of the safe into the body of the safe or from the body of the safe into the door of the safe, which are operated by a separate handle and secured by the lock.
(4) A gun safe shall be capable of repeated use. The exterior walls shall be constructed of a minimum 12-gauge thick steel for a single-walled safe, or the sum of the steel walls shall add up to at least 0.100 inches for safes with two walls. Doors shall be constructed of a minimum one layer of 7-gauge steel plate reinforced construction or at least two layers of a minimum 12-gauge steel compound construction.
(5) Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door. Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler's lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.
(b) A gun safe that is able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage, and is certified to/listed as meeting Underwriters Laboratories Residential Security Container rating standards by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL).
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  #385  
Old 08-29-2018, 6:32 PM
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Its probably been asked before but I missed it. I'm going to Arizona to visit my cousin. I want to give him my RAW , my understanding is that I have to transfer it to him via FFl in Arizona, not one in California. Does the rifle have to be in featureless configuration? I understand I would need to fill out the " No Longer In Possession" form
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  #386  
Old 08-29-2018, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by quiksnap View Post
Its probably been asked before but I missed it. I'm going to Arizona to visit my cousin. I want to give him my RAW , my understanding is that I have to transfer it to him via FFl in Arizona, not one in California. Does the rifle have to be in featureless configuration? I understand I would need to fill out the " No Longer In Possession" form
Federal law requires that transfers residents of different states must go through an FFL, and must comply with the laws of both states involved.
Your friend in AZ can legally drive to Texas and buy an AR or other long gun from Walmart.

California law prohibits the transfer of assault weapons, thus, the transfer would need to take place outside of California.

RAW protects you for possession and transport within California... no need for it to be featureless. Once you cross into AZ, the RAW status is irrelevant... it is simply a modern sporting rifle.

The NLIP is not mandatory, but it is not a bad idea... could prevent a knock on the door in a few years.
DOJ will want proof that the RAW has been removed from the state and sold, ask for copies of the FFL's paperwork. Make a copy with the buyer's information redacted and submit that.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:26 AM
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Hi,

I did do a search and didn't find exactly what I was looking for, I also scanned through this thread and didn't see it asked here. If I missed it somewhere I apoligize. I also realize this thread is old, but I thought this the most relevent place to ask.

I have a couple of "Registered Assult Weapons "RAW" I guess they are called, that I registered prior to the 01 ban. I have my little letter from DOJ telling it's ok for me to own them ect.. So I was under the impression that I coulde keep the Detachable mag feature, but nothing else? However in talking to my buddy, who has an 01 RAW as well, he was telling me we can do whatever want, forward grip/flash hider/folding stock, all the good stuff.

What say you?

Can I put a forward vertical grip on my pre 01 RAW?
Can I put a Folding Stock (as long as over 26 folded/over 30 unfolded) on my Pre 01 RAW?
Anything i Can't/Shouldn't do?
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  #388  
Old 10-24-2019, 2:46 PM
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Default What you can/cannot or must do with Registered Assault Weapons (RAW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aric75 View Post
Hi,


What say you?

Can I put a forward vertical grip on my pre 01 RAW?
Can I put a Folding Stock (as long as over 26 folded/over 30 unfolded) on my Pre 01 RAW?
Anything i Can't/Shouldn't do?

Yes to vertical forward grip. Yes to any other AW feature provided it is not fully-automatic (semi-automatic or manual fine with any features).

Yes to folding, collapsible or telescoping stock if greater than 26” in shortest possible operating condition (will function to shoot as *semi-automatic*) (not able to shoot even single shot when less than 26” or possible SBR); some folding AR stock concepts still allow that single shot.

Is always an assault weapon (RAW) even when defeatured or taken apart to only the lower... until it is deregistered. So transport and store it according to AW laws; locked case for any transport, locked storage only you have access to, transport only to or from home and legal shooting locations (may not have arbitrary destination while transporting).


Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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Last edited by lordmorgul; 10-24-2019 at 9:37 PM..
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  #389  
Old 10-24-2019, 3:12 PM
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If it will fire in <26” configuration, even if single shot, it could very well be prosecuted as a state-defined SBR.
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  #390  
Old 10-24-2019, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Milsurp1 View Post
If it will fire in <26” configuration, even if single shot, it could very well be prosecuted as a state-defined SBR.


True, I’ll edit my response on that point too.


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  #391  
Old 10-25-2019, 9:50 AM
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Thanks for the reply guys, thats the basically the conclusion I had reached, just wanted to get a few other opinions. I am fimiliar with the storage/trasport guidelines, I've been doing those, just wanted to clarify configuration. I'll just keep the fixed stock for now.

Thanks again
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  #392  
Old 10-26-2019, 9:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmorgul View Post
Is always an assault weapon (RAW) even when defeatured or taken apart to only the lower... until it is deregistered.
Hum, can someone else chime in if they think this is true or not. If I melt one down to slag, you're telling me that the state would consider it a gun? It remains registered until unregistered, yes, but, it doesn't remain on AW unless is is one, no?
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  #393  
Old 10-26-2019, 9:54 AM
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Default What you can/cannot or must do with Registered Assault Weapons (RAW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post
Hum, can someone else chime in if they think this is true or not. If I melt one down to slag, you're telling me that the state would consider it a gun? It remains registered until unregistered, yes, but, it doesn't remain on AW unless is is one, no?


Ok, as long as it remains a firearm component it is an RAW, it may be AW or not by feature at that time, but is still a RAW. It cannot be “just a lower receiver”. Yes you can destroy it, but the state will still consider you to own a RAW unless you can prove the puddle is the original part... so why would you want that?


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Last edited by lordmorgul; 10-26-2019 at 8:41 PM.. Reason: Made correction after review of thread
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Old 10-26-2019, 12:10 PM
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Hum, what do you make of this:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf

under hh and hh part 3? Do you disagree with them? Considering violations that make use of the definition in ca pc 30515, if hh part 3 states that a weapon lacking crucial part, for example, the bolt carrier in an AR-15 style fire arm is not semiautomatic, doesn't 30515 part 1, require the assault rifle to be semiautomatic? What's the purpose of stating in hh part 3, that a rifle isn't a semiautomatic for the purposes of 30515? Isn't it to invalidate when 30515 applies?

Looking through https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1428620 even Librarian seems to say that:

separated upper and lower are NOT an assault weapon.

Do you agree/disagree? Did things change since he said it. Indeed the consensus in that thread seems to differ from your opinion. Why?

Now, why am I curious, let's just say I have a friend that has a BBRAW and wants to avoid running afoul of 30945, your position is that separation (hh part 3) doesn't help you avoid pc 30945 violations?

I'm wondering if others agree? Would I be correct in stating your opinion is that once a gun is registered as a BBRAW, it is by definition an AW, no matter hh, no matter part 3?
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  #395  
Old 10-26-2019, 7:40 PM
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Default What you can/cannot or must do with Registered Assault Weapons (RAW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post

I'm wondering if others agree? Would I be correct in stating your opinion is that once a gun is registered as a BBRAW, it is by definition an AW, no matter hh, no matter part 3?

That is *NOT* exactly correct, I made corrections to what I have in this post below... but short on time to expand this minute.. see post #213 in thread, it is defined to be an RAW by registration in any form or configuration until it is deregistered, but may not actually have AW features at the time, so is no longer an AW by feature, but is still a RAW even without AW features; what then applies becomes gray. Keeping upper and lower in proximity is legally risky due to “broken AW” may apply.

Otherwise, you’d just disassemble the upper, drive anywhere you like with it sitting on your car seat, put the upper back on and shoot... clearly that cannot be permissible. If so the transport requirements would have been just that simple.

There are many who agree with what I said, and may eventually post to satiate your need for it, but it’s posted all over the RAW threads already if you search. I didn’t make it up.

The best approach is consider any RAW as always AW, while that may not be strictly true all the time it is a lot less likely to get you stuck in a legal battle and your gun impounded.

The disassembly clauses are really there to allow for an immediate fix to not be in a legal jeopardy situation on the day of registration closure. (If you decided not to register and did nothing else, you could disassemble and leave that way permanently)

Re Librarians post, he said that in reference to an AW under new BBRAW definition prior to registration closure, for which another change hadn’t been done. This also allowed transport of the rifle legally prior to registration by disassembly during transport, see post #60 of this thread.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
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Last edited by lordmorgul; 10-26-2019 at 8:39 PM.. Reason: Had to review previous posts and correct first answers
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  #396  
Old 10-27-2019, 7:40 AM
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To amplify lordmorgul's comments, and to attempt to unwind this issue a bit:

(Apologies for the length. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post
Hum, what do you make of this:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...let-button.pdf

under hh and hh part 3? Do you disagree with them? Considering violations that make use of the definition in ca pc 30515, if hh part 3 states that a weapon lacking crucial part, for example, the bolt carrier in an AR-15 style fire arm is not semiautomatic, doesn't 30515 part 1, require the assault rifle to be semiautomatic? What's the purpose of stating in hh part 3, that a rifle isn't a semiautomatic for the purposes of 30515? Isn't it to invalidate when 30515 applies?

Looking through https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1428620 even Librarian seems to say that:

separated upper and lower are NOT an assault weapon.

Do you agree/disagree? Did things change since he said it. Indeed the consensus in that thread seems to differ from your opinion. Why?
You are confusing two separate Assault Weapon registration activities and their regulations.

The responses you are challenging were made in the context of the original Assault Weapons ban, (prior to 2001) as noted in Aric75's post.
Quote:
I have a couple of "Registered Assult (sic) Weapons "RAW" I guess they are called, that I registered prior to the 01 ban.
The regulations you are now citing are applicable only to Assault Weapons identified in the 2017 statutes and affect rifles from 2001 through 2017.
Quote:
Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon...
Those regulations, II CCR § 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); are specifically constrained to cover only AWs defined under CA PEN 30900(b)(1):
Quote:
(b) (1) Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined in Section 30515, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool, shall register the firearm before July 1, 2018, but not before the effective date of the regulations adopted pursuant to paragraph (5), with the department pursuant to those procedures that the department may establish by regulation pursuant to paragraph (5).
Because these regulations are constrained to rifles after 2001, they are irrelevant to the discussion of pre-2001 Assault weapons.

Moving on.

/////////////////////////////

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveMeMo2A View Post
Now, why am I curious, let's just say I have a friend that has a BBRAW and wants to avoid running afoul of 30945, your position is that separation (hh part 3) doesn't help you avoid pc 30945 violations?

I'm wondering if others agree? Would I be correct in stating your opinion is that once a gun is registered as a BBRAW, it is by definition an AW, no matter hh, no matter part 3?
This particular question shifts from the pre-2001 rules and goes to the BBRAW rules of 2018. But, before reaching the regulations, you defined the question in the context of the specific provisions of CA PEN 30945 relating to possession or RAWs, which tells us that
Quote:
30945. Unless a permit allowing additional uses is first obtained under Section 31000, a person who has registered an assault weapon or registered a .50 BMG rifle under this article may possess it only under any of the following conditions:
Regulations don't supersede statute, and the statute clearly identifies any REGISTERED ASSAULT WEAPON as being under these constraints. Once registered, possession of the weapon is controlled by the statute; take it apart, burn it, whatever, your possession of it is governed by this statute. That resolves your question.

But, you've raised some confusion over the new regulations, specifically 11 CCR 5471 (hh), indicating a belief that the mere separation of an AR15 platform upper and lower causes the weapon to no longer be an assault weapon. (As noted, above, the issue isn't "assault weapon", but is "registered" assault weapon.)

So, let's look at that regulation:

The provisions of 11 CCR 5471 (hh), don't define (or undefine) what is or isn't an AW. They merely define the term "semi-automatic".
Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
[...]
(3) With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
But, the definition of an assault weapon is
Quote:
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle[...]
That means, before you could register the BBAW, it had to meet the definition of "semiautomatic, centerfire". The act of registering a BBAW requires specific documentation (including pictures) which directly, and inextricably, associate the upper and lower of the firearm to each other and establish the firearm's characteristics as a "semiautomatic, centerfire rifle," allowing that entity to become a BBRAW.

Separating the parts of a BBRAW doesn't change its characteristics or nature as a registered assault weapon with "semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" characteristics because that is the primary nature of its registration. If you separate the upper and lower, they are still identified as a BBRAW entity because the upper and lower are linked through registration. Once registered, the statute controls the weapon.

So what is the purpose of subdivision (hh)?

AR-type lowers are neither semiautomatic nor centerfire rifles (they used to be able to be made into pistols). When a bare AR lower is DROS'd, it is entered as a "long gun". At that point, you can put together a single shot or semiautomatic rifle in either centerfire or rimfire calibers, so the bare receiver can't be designated anything at that time. Those characteristics are defined only after one associates the upper with the lower. Until that point, the uppers and lowers, when separated, are not "semiautomatic" (nor are they centerfire) and so can't be deemed to be an assault rifle.

The purpose, then, of the (hh) provisions is to differentiate separated lowers which haven't been registered as AWs (no centerfire designation; no semiautomatic designation) from those which are registered (semiautomatic, centerfire designation).

Best.
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  #397  
Old 10-27-2019, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
To amplify lordmorgul's comments, and to attempt to unwind this issue a bit
In short thanks. I think I better understand now.
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  #398  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
The question I've asked before is regarding BLM/NF and I was told that you can't let a friend shoot it while you're there.

Related question: on BLM/NF land. Targets are a couple hundred yards downrange, you have multiple AWs there. Do you have to lock them up before heading downrange if you have a friend staying back?

Any clarification on this?
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Old 11-07-2019, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by radicalray View Post
Awesome His and Hers gunsafes now
Actually I have RAW and Non-RAW safes. My wife is a coapplicant but can’t remember how to open the safes LOL

All my RAWs and only my RAWs grow in the RAW safe.
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Old 01-19-2020, 1:45 PM
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When was the deadline for registering "so called" assault rifles?
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