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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 10-03-2019, 6:30 PM
American Muslim Gun Owner American Muslim Gun Owner is offline
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Default Beginner Long-Range Shooter

Hello Everyone,

I am currently putting together my first rifle for long range shooting, a Howa 1500 heavy barrel in .308.

Right now (and at least for the next one year), my personal long range shooting will be limited to two hundred yards or less on paper, and five hundred yards or less on steel. Once I feel I've mastered the fundamentals and have a good understanding of my rifle, I will start trying for longer distances. Locations will include Angeles Shooting Ranges, Burro Canyon, Rahaauges, and BLM land.

I will be using factory match ammo in 175 gr from Federal and Sig when starting out. Reloading will happen, but not right away.

I am new and on a budget, so I need some help with gear recommendations because I am afraid I will go overboard and overwhelm myself in the end.

Aside from a rifle that is properly setup optically, proper ammo, a cleaning kit and a notepad and pen, what else do I need?

Is a shooting bad / rest preferred over a bipod? Any particular one you recommend?

What kind of notes should I be taking when I am doing my shooting? Any particular device(s) or apps I should look into for the specific data?

Do you recommend any particular log book, or is it better to make my own?

What do you recommend for measuring groups? Am I ok with using a generic caliper from Amazon?

Is a spotting scope necessary when starting out at the distances that I am working with?

Any recommendations on a backpack and rifle case?

And whatever else you can recommend.

Thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 10-03-2019, 9:07 PM
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The "Long Range Shooting Handbook" by Ryan Cleckner.
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  #3  
Old 10-03-2019, 9:34 PM
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I would rate a spotting scope as a necessity in order to check your shots and dial in your corrections, but your scope might be enough at 100 yards, depending on what you get. You could shot at shorter distances for a while to hold off on some spending.

Get a good bipod, IMO. I am not sure what kind of support you'd use otherwise that's cheaper and as useful. I use Atlas bipods. You'll also need a bag for the rear end of the gun. Lots of opinions there.

A shooting mat is handy. I use a CrossTac. This can wait if you are shooting at a range with a friendly surface.

I'd add a 12" ruler for computing your zero properly. It'll be fine for measuring groups, too. Calipers are okay for groups, too. Probably more precise, but I don't care, personally.

Get a ballistics app. I use Strelok Pro.

I use a Midway range bag to carry most equipment, and a standard rifle case for the gun. I have a drag bag, but have never needed it.

I use LucasOil gun oil and grease for lubrication, although there are lots of fine products.

There are lots of opinions on log books, too, but I don't have enough experience to recommend one.
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2019, 6:48 AM
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You will need a rear bag for sure.
front support could be as simple as a Harris 6-9 swivel bipod
As you get more experience you will start to figure out what you need and what you don't.

A log book?? well I wouldn't recommend one at this point and time. What I would recommend is just a note book and record Date, Time, Location, Temp, Altitude Density, Wind speed and direction, (average it) number of rounds fired, how well you think you did, and anything different, Did you try a new load, bullet, bipod, rest, scope, etc. Note every change you make to your weapon system and include how often you clean it and a total round count.

If you really want a log book I can send you two PDF's that you can print punch holes in and go to town.

you'll be surprised how valuable that data is.

Spotting scopes are nice spend your money wisely and plan for the future. that means also buying a good tripod. don't waste you money on a scope kit as the tripods included are junk.

Backpack?? how about the Kelty Map 3500, I've had one for 12 years and it hold up very well.

Gun Case?? Pelican if you fly, Boyt if you can afford it. Bald eagle if you want cheep and good but don't care about color.

Midway makes a nice shooting mat. big one and rolls up.

don't get caught up on the wizz bang gun oil/grease crap. 3 in 1 oil and wheel bearing grease works just fine. and it's dirt cheep. Gun oil is rebranded machine oil with a 300% mark up if not more. Gun grease is the same way
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2019, 7:28 AM
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Seeing that you will be going to ASR or Burro Cyn and probably shooting off the bench, a cheap front sandbag may be better than the bipod which can bounce or hop on a hard surface due to recoil.

The Midway competition mats are good and have a strip to secure the bipod when firing prone. On sale usually for $50 or so.

Spotting scopes, Konus has a good budget 20x60x80mm spotting scope, Kowa if you are buying a real one.

Initially you don't need a Kestrel for wind and weather data. The wind is limited at 100yds but will show it's influence at 200yds and beyond. The old school methods of estimating wind are fairly accurate. Most people overestimate actual windspeed unless they have a basic understanding. Here's a simple primer in reading wind and estimating basic windage corrections:
https://www.6mmbr.com/windreading.html

Legal disclaimer: I'm just a neophyte NRA Long-range competitor with a background in NRA service rifle. kcstott is more experienced and typically outshoots me by a good 10-15 points at the end of the day.

Take up kcstott on the logbook offer.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 10-04-2019 at 8:15 AM..
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2019, 8:39 AM
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http://www.rifleshootingbynancy.com/index.html

Lots of good information on wind reading and when/if you ever got into slow fire shooting, this is one of the Bibles to get.

Here are two other ones that are very good reads if you want to get more into the accuracy/precision of shooting in general. These techniques spill into long range shooting, even though these guys are short range bench rest shooters.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Rifle-Ac...0207097&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Rifle...ND8R0K4GQQ9ZA8
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2019, 8:48 AM
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Try to figure out what your end goal is also. PRS? F class? ELR like King of 2 mile? Or just banging steel for fun?

It won't be long before you'll start to want to get equipment geared towards the kind of shooting you ultimately want to do.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2019, 9:23 AM
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here are the pages I sourced my own datalog from

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Dg?usp=sharing
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2019, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
here are the pages I sourced my own datalog from
Very nice! A lot of good data book pages.
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  #10  
Old 10-05-2019, 11:15 AM
American Muslim Gun Owner American Muslim Gun Owner is offline
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Thank you all for the helpful replies.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mrb865 View Post
The "Long Range Shooting Handbook" by Ryan Cleckner.
Thanks mrb, I just got that book recently and about half way through it. I will also take Cleckner's advice and keep it on me on my range trips.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughts View Post
I would rate a spotting scope as a necessity in order to check your shots and dial in your corrections, but your scope might be enough at 100 yards, depending on what you get. You could shot at shorter distances for a while to hold off on some spending.

Get a good bipod, IMO. I am not sure what kind of support you'd use otherwise that's cheaper and as useful. I use Atlas bipods. You'll also need a bag for the rear end of the gun. Lots of opinions there.

A shooting mat is handy. I use a CrossTac. This can wait if you are shooting at a range with a friendly surface.

I'd add a 12" ruler for computing your zero properly. It'll be fine for measuring groups, too. Calipers are okay for groups, too. Probably more precise, but I don't care, personally.

Get a ballistics app. I use Strelok Pro.

I use a Midway range bag to carry most equipment, and a standard rifle case for the gun. I have a drag bag, but have never needed it.

I use LucasOil gun oil and grease for lubrication, although there are lots of fine products.

There are lots of opinions on log books, too, but I don't have enough experience to recommend one.
Thank you for all the recommendations and tips, Thoughts.

The scope that I purchased is a Nikon Black in the 4-16 magnification. Based on the replies in this thread, I will see how well I can see with the scope itself before investing a in a good spotting scope. That is some pricey glass!

I'll start shopping around for a good rear bag, as well as good bipod for when I eventually start shooting prone. I might look for used stuff since I'm starting out just to keep the costs down.

Most of the ranges I'll be frequenting have shooting benches, so I may not need a mat right away. But I'll keep an eye out for a deal.

And I just downloaded the Strelok app and will start playing with it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
You will need a rear bag for sure.
front support could be as simple as a Harris 6-9 swivel bipod
As you get more experience you will start to figure out what you need and what you don't.

A log book?? well I wouldn't recommend one at this point and time. What I would recommend is just a note book and record Date, Time, Location, Temp, Altitude Density, Wind speed and direction, (average it) number of rounds fired, how well you think you did, and anything different, Did you try a new load, bullet, bipod, rest, scope, etc. Note every change you make to your weapon system and include how often you clean it and a total round count.

If you really want a log book I can send you two PDF's that you can print punch holes in and go to town.

you'll be surprised how valuable that data is.

Spotting scopes are nice spend your money wisely and plan for the future. that means also buying a good tripod. don't waste you money on a scope kit as the tripods included are junk.

Backpack?? how about the Kelty Map 3500, I've had one for 12 years and it hold up very well.

Gun Case?? Pelican if you fly, Boyt if you can afford it. Bald eagle if you want cheep and good but don't care about color.

Midway makes a nice shooting mat. big one and rolls up.

don't get caught up on the wizz bang gun oil/grease crap. 3 in 1 oil and wheel bearing grease works just fine. and it's dirt cheep. Gun oil is rebranded machine oil with a 300% mark up if not more. Gun grease is the same way
Thank you for the helpful recommendations and info, kcstott.

I'll make the rear bag a priority. Any brand recommendations are certainly welcome.

Thank you so much for the tips on data. Will a Kestrel provide most of that info? And yes, I will be very grateful for the log book pdfs, if you don't mind.

The spotting scope will be a later purchase. From the reading I've done, it looks like a good one will cost at least a Glock.

Thank for the recommendation on the Kelty Map. I was thrown off by the price at first, but it does have good reviews and seems well laid-out.




Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Seeing that you will be going to ASR or Burro Cyn and probably shooting off the bench, a cheap front sandbag may be better than the bipod which can bounce or hop on a hard surface due to recoil.

The Midway competition mats are good and have a strip to secure the bipod when firing prone. On sale usually for $50 or so.

Spotting scopes, Konus has a good budget 20x60x80mm spotting scope, Kowa if you are buying a real one.

Initially you don't need a Kestrel for wind and weather data. The wind is limited at 100yds but will show it's influence at 200yds and beyond. The old school methods of estimating wind are fairly accurate. Most people overestimate actual windspeed unless they have a basic understanding. Here's a simple primer in reading wind and estimating basic windage corrections:
https://www.6mmbr.com/windreading.html

Legal disclaimer: I'm just a neophyte NRA Long-range competitor with a background in NRA service rifle. kcstott is more experienced and typically outshoots me by a good 10-15 points at the end of the day.

Take up kcstott on the logbook offer.
Thanks for all the help so far, smoothy.

I see your point about the bipod bounce. I'll look for a sand bags, or try to make my own.

Thank you for the recommendations on the spotting scope and shooting mat. I've have across several recommendations for the Midway shooting mat.

I've printed out the article you linked. I'll be reading it a few times and try to be observant when outdoors to start training myself.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
http://www.rifleshootingbynancy.com/index.html

Lots of good information on wind reading and when/if you ever got into slow fire shooting, this is one of the Bibles to get.

Here are two other ones that are very good reads if you want to get more into the accuracy/precision of shooting in general. These techniques spill into long range shooting, even though these guys are short range bench rest shooters.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Rifle-Ac...0207097&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Rifle...ND8R0K4GQQ9ZA8
Thanks for those recommendations, bsumoba.

I've got more time for reading than shooting right now, so these books will be great. I found a used copy of Extreme Rifle Accuracy and ordered it immediately. The other two will be coming home soon.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Try to figure out what your end goal is also. PRS? F class? ELR like King of 2 mile? Or just banging steel for fun?

It won't be long before you'll start to want to get equipment geared towards the kind of shooting you ultimately want to do.
Honestly, I'm not sure what my end goal. But if I had to pick one today, it would be hitting steel out to a thousand yards or so. I am afraid I will get bit by the tiny groupings bug, and then go broke lol!




Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
here are the pages I sourced my own datalog from

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Dg?usp=sharing
Thanks broadside! These are awesome! I'll be downloading them all.
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  #11  
Old 10-05-2019, 8:11 PM
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If you decide on a Harris bipod, get the SBRM. It has notched legs and is able to cant. Also, replace the cant tension knob with a podlock. Makes it much easier to use. Chrono can wait, you can back into velocity using Strelok. I like the Str8laced rear bag.
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Old 10-07-2019, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
Thank you all for the helpful replies.









Thank you for the helpful recommendations and info, kcstott.

I'll make the rear bag a priority. Any brand recommendations are certainly welcome.

Thank you so much for the tips on data. Will a Kestrel provide most of that info? And yes, I will be very grateful for the log book pdfs, if you don't mind.

The spotting scope will be a later purchase. From the reading I've done, it looks like a good one will cost at least a Glock.

Thank for the recommendation on the Kelty Map. I was thrown off by the price at first, but it does have good reviews and seems well laid-out.





the most expensive Kestral will have Altitude density. But at $500 a free or nearly free Iphone or android app will do the same. There is one called density altitude + for the iphone I think it's free or like $5. It don't need to be that close you just need to know what 1K foot level you are on, no need for a number as close as say 1234 feet. The bullet isn't that sensitive to pressure. Just round it off the the nearest 1K and call it good. I've seen guys argue over 500 feet on our firing line. it's funny then you politely tell them it don't matter and they continue to argue. I then say check you data with a manually entered AD number look at your drop then change the AD by 500 feet and see what you get. It's funny to see the light bulbs go off.

for 90% of shooters
Don't worry about temp till it changes by more than 10 degrees
Don't worry about altitude until you have 1000 feet of change (density or actual location)
Don't worry about humidity at all unless the swing is from zero to 100% or 100% to zero there is little effect.

99% of the problems with the gun are fix behind the gun not on it. As in you are the cause of 99% of the issues. we all are but human nature makes us think it can't be use it must be the load or gun or the wind. No sometimes you just can't put the puzzle together and you shoot like crap.
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Old 10-07-2019, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicky View Post
If you decide on a Harris bipod, get the SBRM. It has notched legs and is able to cant. Also, replace the cant tension knob with a podlock. Makes it much easier to use. Chrono can wait, you can back into velocity using Strelok. I like the Str8laced rear bag.
Thanks Bicky, I have added the Harris bipod as well as the Str8laced shooting bag to my shopping list and downloaded the Strelok app.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
the most expensive Kestral will have Altitude density. But at $500 a free or nearly free Iphone or android app will do the same. There is one called density altitude + for the iphone I think it's free or like $5. It don't need to be that close you just need to know what 1K foot level you are on, no need for a number as close as say 1234 feet. The bullet isn't that sensitive to pressure. Just round it off the the nearest 1K and call it good. I've seen guys argue over 500 feet on our firing line. it's funny then you politely tell them it don't matter and they continue to argue. I then say check you data with a manually entered AD number look at your drop then change the AD by 500 feet and see what you get. It's funny to see the light bulbs go off.

for 90% of shooters
Don't worry about temp till it changes by more than 10 degrees
Don't worry about altitude until you have 1000 feet of change (density or actual location)
Don't worry about humidity at all unless the swing is from zero to 100% or 100% to zero there is little effect.

99% of the problems with the gun are fix behind the gun not on it. As in you are the cause of 99% of the issues. we all are but human nature makes us think it can't be use it must be the load or gun or the wind. No sometimes you just can't put the puzzle together and you shoot like crap.
Thanks kcstott for the continued help. At this point, I have decided to dedicate an older phone I've got sitting around to this hobby. I've already got the Strelok app and I'll start looking for the app you've described. Maybe even download a few ebooks and document my range trips with the camera. Looks like there are a couple of interesting log book apps as well for both Androids and iPhones.

I very much appreciate the anecdote about the guys arguing; I suffer from a lot of OCD so I can certainly see myself being that guy who is overthinking it lol!

The more I learn, the more I realize how much it will be me who is going to be the main source of shooting issues. I'm going to continue relying on my .22 rifles to make sure my fundamentals remain the main focus.
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Old 10-07-2019, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
I'm going to continue relying on my .22 rifles to make sure my fundamentals remain the main focus.
A .22LR at 100-150yds can be a very effective substitute for 600yd wind-reading. If you have a good .22 and use quality target velocity ammunition, you can observe and record how the wind influences a projectile. You will start seeing the 2 or 3MOA shift in impact associated with changes in velocity or direction.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 10-07-2019 at 4:16 PM..
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Old 10-07-2019, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
A .22LR at 100-150yds can be a very effective substitute for 600yd wind-reading. If you have a good .22 and use quality target velocity ammunition, you can observe and record how the wind influences a projectile. You will start seeing the 2 or 3MOA shift in impact associated with changes in velocity or direction.
Good advice smoothy. Quality 22 ammo is certainly cheaper than match grade 308.

Right now, I have a Marlin 795 and a Ruger 10/22 in my collection that I play around with. I have been debating investing in a bolt-action like a Marlin XT-22 or a Ruger American rimfire with a good scope for long distance. If the price drops low enough, I may just pick up another Nikon to match the one for the Howa.

I feel like I missed the boat on stocking up on quality subsonic .22 ammo before the whole ammo permit thing kicked in. I'm going to look around to see what is available at the local gun shops. Otherwise, I'll try my luck online.
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Old 10-07-2019, 5:00 PM
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You don't need a kestrel, it is helpful... But it tells you the wind at the shooter and not the majority of the wind all the way to your target.
Invest in a good rear bag ( tab for example ), and a good bipod. Harris's have their place but I would look at the Atlas CAL, specifically because it locks down right and will really eliminate any rifle cant.
And don't get a bubble level, the most accurate level you need for your rifle is between your ears.
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Old 10-07-2019, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
Thanks Bicky, I have added the Harris bipod as well as the Str8laced shooting bag to my shopping list and downloaded the Strelok app.





Thanks kcstott for the continued help. At this point, I have decided to dedicate an older phone I've got sitting around to this hobby. I've already got the Strelok app and I'll start looking for the app you've described. Maybe even download a few ebooks and document my range trips with the camera. Looks like there are a couple of interesting log book apps as well for both Androids and iPhones.

I very much appreciate the anecdote about the guys arguing; I suffer from a lot of OCD so I can certainly see myself being that guy who is overthinking it lol!

The more I learn, the more I realize how much it will be me who is going to be the main source of shooting issues. I'm going to continue relying on my .22 rifles to make sure my fundamentals remain the main focus.

By the way rear bags you asked about, look at Tab gear. Not cheep but good solid gear.

As for the overthinking. Yeah Iím OCD too. So donít sweat the little stuff. And itís all little stuff.
Work on your fundamentals. Every time you go to the range focus on one thing and do not deviate. Your priority order should be
1. Build your position
2. Focus on your breathing and natural respiratory pause
3. Sight picture
4. Trigger control & release
5. Recoil control and follow through

Get in the habit of leaving your bolt open until your head and body is in position. This will do two things.
1. It will prevent an uncontrolled round going somewhere unintended
2. It will keep you from cooking a round in the chamber and having it shoot high for no apparent reason.
That and it takes more time for you to then manipulate the weapon and you get a little more time to stop thinking about the crap going on around you and focus on the job at hand.
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Old 10-08-2019, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDCarpenter View Post
You don't need a kestrel, it is helpful... But it tells you the wind at the shooter and not the majority of the wind all the way to your target.
Invest in a good rear bag ( tab for example ), and a good bipod. Harris's have their place but I would look at the Atlas CAL, specifically because it locks down right and will really eliminate any rifle cant.
And don't get a bubble level, the most accurate level you need for your rifle is between your ears.
Lol the last part made me laugh out loud!

Thank you for the recommendations on the bag as well as the bipod. The Atlas is currently out of my price range (and costs just as much as my rifle lol), but I will add it to my wishlist. Same with the Kestrl. If they go on sale, great.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
By the way rear bags you asked about, look at Tab gear. Not cheep but good solid gear.

As for the overthinking. Yeah Iím OCD too. So donít sweat the little stuff. And itís all little stuff.
Work on your fundamentals. Every time you go to the range focus on one thing and do not deviate. Your priority order should be
1. Build your position
2. Focus on your breathing and natural respiratory pause
3. Sight picture
4. Trigger control & release
5. Recoil control and follow through

Get in the habit of leaving your bolt open until your head and body is in position. This will do two things.
1. It will prevent an uncontrolled round going somewhere unintended
2. It will keep you from cooking a round in the chamber and having it shoot high for no apparent reason.
That and it takes more time for you to then manipulate the weapon and you get a little more time to stop thinking about the crap going on around you and focus on the job at hand.
So I took everyone's advice on the rear bags. I ordered both the original Tab Gear bag as well as the Stra8 Laced to see which one will work better for my needs. I ordered directly from them, especially since the prices are the same everywhere. Got a shipping label update this morning.

Thank you so much for that breakdown on the fundamentals. People like myself do better when prioritizing our tasks. I'm gonna turn your list into a mantra.

I also very much like your suggestion of leaving the bolt open. I will openly admit that I have taken hasty shots in the past even though I knew I was about to shoot poorly. Keeping that bolt open will certainly eliminate that.
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Old 10-08-2019, 3:37 PM
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There are PRS and NRL match videos on youtube. Watch a handful of them, see how they do things. There are also channels with some good videos of examples of what not to do. I like the Precision Rifle Network channel for that sort of thing, as well as the Guns and Ammo show on cable tv. There's also SHLowlight, which is the Sniper's Hide channel. That guy, Frank Galli, has probably forgotten more about long range shooting than almost everyone on this forum. As well, there are random videos by David Tubb, who always seems to be happy to share his knowledge.
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Old 10-08-2019, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post

I also very much like your suggestion of leaving the bolt open. I will openly admit that I have taken hasty shots in the past even though I knew I was about to shoot poorly. Keeping that bolt open will certainly eliminate that.
not just that, but he's also right about heating up your round in the chamber.
in long range shooting, ambient temperature (and the temperature of the powder) affects burn rates and thus velocity.
at 100 yds, this has minor affect, but at long distances the difference between 50 degrees and 100 degrees can be big.
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Old 10-08-2019, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
There are PRS and NRL match videos on youtube. Watch a handful of them, see how they do things. There are also channels with some good videos of examples of what not to do. I like the Precision Rifle Network channel for that sort of thing, as well as the Guns and Ammo show on cable tv. There's also SHLowlight, which is the Sniper's Hide channel. That guy, Frank Galli, has probably forgotten more about long range shooting than almost everyone on this forum. As well, there are random videos by David Tubb, who always seems to be happy to share his knowledge.
Thanks sig, I will start checking out those videos in my down time. I really appreciate the guidance on future plans because I wasn't even thinking that far ahead when I bought the rifle lol!




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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
not just that, but he's also right about heating up your round in the chamber.
in long range shooting, ambient temperature (and the temperature of the powder) affects burn rates and thus velocity.
at 100 yds, this has minor affect, but at long distances the difference between 50 degrees and 100 degrees can be big.
I appreciate the info on ambient temperature as well as the highlighted part. I mistook kc's original response to mean shooting before one was ready to pull the trigger.

Your last point about the difference between 50 and 100 degrees, is that why I have seen people show up bright and early at the outdoor range and finish their shooting before 11 am? I always thought it was because the wind would start kicking up around noon.
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Old 10-08-2019, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
Thanks sig, I will start checking out those videos in my down time. I really appreciate the guidance on future plans because I wasn't even thinking that far ahead when I bought the rifle lol!






I appreciate the info on ambient temperature as well as the highlighted part. I mistook kc's original response to mean shooting before one was ready to pull the trigger.

Your last point about the difference between 50 and 100 degrees, is that why I have seen people show up bright and early at the outdoor range and finish their shooting before 11 am? I always thought it was because the wind would start kicking up around noon.
great question.

the temp difference is part of the ballistic calculations, so experienced shooters can compensate for that, but they might prefer stable temps while practicing, or i'd just prefer the cool temps.

another reason long range shooter prefer morning or evening when it is cool is the effect of mirage on being able to see your target clearly. it distorts your view particularly at high magnification. sometimes you can even see 2 targets or if the target is small, you might not be able to see it at all.

wind is a bigger factor, but for practice, i doubt good shooters avoid it if they are trying to get better at estimating wind, either for competition or hunting.
the exception might be if they are testing hand loads loads or zeroing a rifle, where they want to minimize the variables to get valid results. is it me, or the wind?

when it isn't too bad to see the target, experienced shooters can make use of mirage to see wind direction more accurately downrange.

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Old 10-09-2019, 4:35 AM
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Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
Thanks sig, I will start checking out those videos in my down time. I really appreciate the guidance on future plans because I wasn't even thinking that far ahead when I bought the rifle lol!






I appreciate the info on ambient temperature as well as the highlighted part. I mistook kc's original response to mean shooting before one was ready to pull the trigger.

Your last point about the difference between 50 and 100 degrees, is that why I have seen people show up bright and early at the outdoor range and finish their shooting before 11 am? I always thought it was because the wind would start kicking up around noon.
In my last post read point #2 again about leaving your bolt open.

On my rifle shooting my load at 1000 yards i can predictably send the round high by doing nothing but let the round sit in a warm or hot chamber.

get on the rifle, get in position, bolt open, look through the scope, adjust your bags, set a round on the sled, (single round feed for me) look through the scope again, breathing in control finding your rhythm, settle on the aiming point, watch the cross hairs settle, close the bolt, once you have your breathing and cross hairs in rhythm and settled on the aiming point press off the shot and follow through. As you get more experience and can take more time you can press the shot between heart beats. Yeah that sounds all super sniper delta seal ranger crap, but it's true. if you can't see a flicker of your heart beat in the cross hairs your position is not stable. By the way that's only for prone shooting. Heart beat and breathing have a whole other look standing sitting and kneeling and I'm not experienced enough to say a word about it.

Last edited by kcstott; 10-09-2019 at 7:14 AM..
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Old 10-09-2019, 9:44 AM
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Well, I'm for sure never going to be able to pull the trigger between heartbeats, my pulse is too high.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:24 AM
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Well, I'm for sure never going to be able to pull the trigger between heartbeats, my pulse is too high.
I get so relaxed on a rifle I could fall asleep on the cheek rest
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Old 10-09-2019, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
great question.

the temp difference is part of the ballistic calculations, so experienced shooters can compensate for that, but they might prefer stable temps while practicing, or i'd just prefer the cool temps.

another reason long range shooter prefer morning or evening when it is cool is the effect of mirage on being able to see your target clearly. it distorts your view particularly at high magnification. sometimes you can even see 2 targets or if the target is small, you might not be able to see it at all.

wind is a bigger factor, but for practice, i doubt good shooters avoid it if they are trying to get better at estimating wind, either for competition or hunting.
the exception might be if they are testing hand loads loads or zeroing a rifle, where they want to minimize the variables to get valid results. is it me, or the wind?

when it isn't too bad to see the target, experienced shooters can make use of mirage to see wind direction more accurately downrange.

My observation is that the folks that come in during the morning hours and then leave before tend to be an older crowd that seems quite focused. They also appear to have hand-loaded ammo on hand.

Thanks for the info on using the mirage to judge the wind.




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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
In my last post read point #2 again about leaving your bolt open.

On my rifle shooting my load at 1000 yards i can predictably send the round high by doing nothing but let the round sit in a warm or hot chamber.

get on the rifle, get in position, bolt open, look through the scope, adjust your bags, set a round on the sled, (single round feed for me) look through the scope again, breathing in control finding your rhythm, settle on the aiming point, watch the cross hairs settle, close the bolt, once you have your breathing and cross hairs in rhythm and settled on the aiming point press off the shot and follow through. As you get more experience and can take more time you can press the shot between heart beats. Yeah that sounds all super sniper delta seal ranger crap, but it's true. if you can't see a flicker of your heart beat in the cross hairs your position is not stable. By the way that's only for prone shooting. Heart beat and breathing have a whole other look standing sitting and kneeling and I'm not experienced enough to say a word about it.
I went back and reread it and now I understand what you meant. How do you guys deal with hot chambers? Just let the ambient air do its thing?


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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Well, I'm for sure never going to be able to pull the trigger between heartbeats, my pulse is too high.
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I get so relaxed on a rifle I could fall asleep on the cheek rest
I think I need to hit the gym for a bit before I start hitting the prone position. Otherwise I'll need a taller bipod. And probably fall asleep if its warm. I actually tend to drink 7-11 coffee and eat mints while shooting, but I may have to look for a more tactical fuel source as I get more serious.
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Old 10-09-2019, 2:26 PM
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I get so relaxed on a rifle I could fall asleep on the cheek rest
I'm sleeping everywhere. I'm asleep right now!

I had some heart issues as an infant so I've always had a fast pulse. It would take JJ Racaza to pull the trigger between my heartbeats.
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Old 10-09-2019, 2:32 PM
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I went back and reread it and now I understand what you meant. How do you guys deal with hot chambers? Just let the ambient air do its thing?
You can buy a battery powered fan that goes in the loading port/chamber.
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Old 10-09-2019, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
How do you guys deal with hot chambers? Just let the ambient air do its thing?
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
You can buy a battery-powered fan that goes in the loading port/chamber.
Really don't see them at NRA F-class matches. A string of fire is 22 rounds fired in 22 minutes with a generous break between strings. Heat is just accepted as part of the match that has to be managed.

The fans may be more common on PRS/Practical matches where 6-12 rounds are shot around 2 minutes or so, and the time between stages is closer to 15-20 minutes. Although, I haven't seen any at the Pendleton matches yet. You have to consider rifles are parked on the dusty ground which may be why they aren't quite in vogue.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 10-09-2019 at 3:16 PM..
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Old 10-09-2019, 7:34 PM
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Just read your other thread about the rifle. Shooting a traditional stock with a larger scope sucks. It is difficult to get a proper cheek weld and build a stable position. You will probably want some kind of cheek riser. You can try:
-use cut up mouse pad and duct tape
-get a stock pack. These will usually offer some adjustment by adding layers between stock and pack
-get a kydex cheek piece, as shown in one of the pics in that thread. Installation is easy, but it's a little daunting to drill big holes in your brand new gun
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Old 10-09-2019, 8:06 PM
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Really don't see them at NRA F-class matches. A string of fire is 22 rounds fired in 22 minutes with a generous break between strings. Heat is just accepted as part of the match that has to be managed.

The fans may be more common on PRS/Practical matches where 6-12 rounds are shot around 2 minutes or so, and the time between stages is closer to 15-20 minutes. Although, I haven't seen any at the Pendleton matches yet. You have to consider rifles are parked on the dusty ground which may be why they aren't quite in vogue.
haven't seen anyone use a chamber fan at a PRS match yet
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Old 10-09-2019, 8:59 PM
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Yeah, didn't think so. I've pretty much only seen them in rifles that sit on the bench where people don't shoot past 100yds.
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Old 10-10-2019, 4:17 AM
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Yeah, didn't think so. I've pretty much only seen them in rifles that sit on the bench where people don't shoot past 100yds.
One of our F class guys uses one and I've seen them used with our PPR match but again that two people in two different disciplines. So yeah not common at all. I think Lou Murdica just pours water down the barrel and swabs it out.
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Old 10-10-2019, 4:26 AM
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I went back and reread it and now I understand what you meant. How do you guys deal with hot chambers? Just let the ambient air do its thing?
You leave the bolt open then close it and only take about 3-5 seconds to press off the shot.

By the way. very few F class guys are "in Shape" we are a shape. Round but we are not in shape. There are a few skinny SOB's on the firing line either young marines firefighters or cops, or the old guy that has the time to hit the gym and some how figured out how to say no to beer. I ain't one of them. 5-8 and go 250 I'd be thinner if it wasn't for a divorce and the love of beer
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Old 10-10-2019, 8:01 AM
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In addition to the chamber heat-soaking a cartridge is the sun hitting exposed ammo. We're all shielding our ammo from direct sunlight during a string, and some guys keep ammo in their lunchbox between strings.

The last few events at Pendleton, both F-class and Practical Rifle, temps have been the high nineties up to over a hundred sometimes.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 10-10-2019 at 8:03 AM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
In addition to the chamber heat-soaking a cartridge is the sun hitting exposed ammo. We're all shielding our ammo from direct sunlight during a string, and some guys keep ammo in their lunchbox between strings.

The last few events at Pendleton, both F-class and Practical Rifle, temps have been the high nineties up to over a hundred sometimes.
Yep I keep mine in the cooler when I can remember to do it.
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Old 10-10-2019, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
You leave the bolt open then close it and only take about 3-5 seconds to press off the shot.

By the way. very few F class guys are "in Shape" we are a shape. Round but we are not in shape. There are a few skinny SOB's on the firing line either young marines firefighters or cops, or the old guy that has the time to hit the gym and some how figured out how to say no to beer. I ain't one of them. 5-8 and go 250 I'd be thinner if it wasn't for a divorce and the love of beer
Lightweight!

I can almost remember way back when, when I was 250.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I get so relaxed on a rifle I could fall asleep on the cheek rest
That is always my goal between strings of fire. Nap time!
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Old 10-10-2019, 1:35 PM
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Thank you everyone for the info on the fan. I'll keep that off the list.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicky View Post
Just read your other thread about the rifle. Shooting a traditional stock with a larger scope sucks. It is difficult to get a proper cheek weld and build a stable position. You will probably want some kind of cheek riser. You can try:
-use cut up mouse pad and duct tape
-get a stock pack. These will usually offer some adjustment by adding layers between stock and pack
-get a kydex cheek piece, as shown in one of the pics in that thread. Installation is easy, but it's a little daunting to drill big holes in your brand new gun
Yeah the stock's comb height and the objective size of the scope is a bit of a concern, but I want to run it as-is for now until I can decide what kind of stock to upgrade to. It is also why I am double-checking everything to make sure my scope's rings are not any higher than they have to be.

I hear you about having to drill into the stock. I will probably go the stock pack route, or make something using a pool noodle maybe.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
You leave the bolt open then close it and only take about 3-5 seconds to press off the shot.

By the way. very few F class guys are "in Shape" we are a shape. Round but we are not in shape. There are a few skinny SOB's on the firing line either young marines firefighters or cops, or the old guy that has the time to hit the gym and some how figured out how to say no to beer. I ain't one of them. 5-8 and go 250 I'd be thinner if it wasn't for a divorce and the love of beer
Lol fair enough! I guess I don't feel so bad then.




Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
In addition to the chamber heat-soaking a cartridge is the sun hitting exposed ammo. We're all shielding our ammo from direct sunlight during a string, and some guys keep ammo in their lunchbox between strings.

The last few events at Pendleton, both F-class and Practical Rifle, temps have been the high nineties up to over a hundred sometimes.
Thanks for that suggestion. I've got an older lunch box sitting around that I was going to throw away, so looks like it just got re-purposed. And its much more stealthy than an ammo can. It'll go perfect with a guitar case. Lol!
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Old 10-11-2019, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by American Muslim Gun Owner View Post
Thank you everyone for the info on the fan. I'll keep that off the list.

Thanks for that suggestion. I've got an older lunch box sitting around that I was going to throw away, so looks like it just got re-purposed. And its much more stealthy than an ammo can. It'll go perfect with a guitar case. Lol!
the point is to keep the ammo at a consistent temp. not to cold but no heat soaked. a lunch box and a blue ice block work wonders.
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