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  #1  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:03 PM
mcgill mcgill is offline
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Default Can FFL buy firearm without using license?

I am an FFL 01 Sole Proprietorship.
Am I required to ALWAYS use my license when I purchase a firearm from another FFL?
In other words, am I allowed to walk into Firearm Store XYZ and go through the normal ATF/CA DOJ 4473/DROS purchase process, and wait period, etc without showing/using my FFL?
Then when I return to my shop with the firearm I enter it into my A&D book showing the Firearm Store XYZ FFL as the “From Whom Received”.
The question might sound crazy, but someone told me, since I am licensed, I must always use my license to buy a firearm.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgill View Post
I am an FFL 01 Sole Proprietorship.
Am I required to ALWAYS use my license when I purchase a firearm from another FFL?
In other words, am I allowed to walk into Firearm Store XYZ and go through the normal ATF/CA DOJ 4473/DROS purchase process, and wait period, etc without showing/using my FFL?
Then when I return to my shop with the firearm I enter it into my A&D book showing the Firearm Store XYZ FFL as the “From Whom Received”.
The question might sound crazy, but someone told me, since I am licensed, I must always use my license to buy a firearm.
So, I'd be lying if I said that didn't make me give a funny look to the computer screen with one eyebrow higher than the other.

Anyway, as a licensee you can purchase firearms from another FFL, and all you will need is to provide them a copy of your FFL. They on the other hand will need to provide you a copy of their FFL and a clearance number from CFLC. You would then need to enter it into your A&D Book like any other acquisition.

Now if you want to purchase a firearm from another FFL as an individual, you can go through the process like anyone else, but your CFD will give you a 10 day wait exemption and you can walk out with the gun after the paperwork (4473 & DROS) is completed.

Last edited by RoundEye; 09-10-2019 at 1:29 PM..
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Old 09-10-2019, 1:07 PM
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The answer to your question is yes, you can. The only reason I can think of you doing this is because you ran into a smoking hot deal at another dealer and didn't have a copy of your FFL. Always carry one or keep a copy online somewhere you can access it.

For the second part, you would not log it into your bound book as from them, you didn't receive it from them. You received it from yourself and should log it that way.

Jeff
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Old 09-10-2019, 1:18 PM
mcgill mcgill is offline
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Strange question indeed, but thanks for oervlooking that and replying.

I tried to look for Federal or State law that either supports or disproves the statement but still can’t piece it together by citing PC and USCode.
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Old 09-10-2019, 4:02 PM
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the only important part is logging it into your book. you cannot buy with ffl or 4473 and not log it in since as a sole prop you are now married to the license. you can log it out for private collection.
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  #6  
Old 09-10-2019, 4:12 PM
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Got it, thanks. I agree - buying with FFL or via 4473, logging into book is required.

Does anyone believe there is any legal requirement that prohibits me from buying via 4473?

For example, if I have a GSSF (Glock) certificate to buy at GSSF price, SOCAL store that sells them says their policy is to only sell those directly to GSSF members and they will not sell to an FFL. In other words, they do the 4473/DROS and won’t let me flash my FFL and pay. So I say no problem because it’s worth the price and hassle. Can I but without using FFL? When I return to shop I log into book even though I used 4473.
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  #7  
Old 09-10-2019, 5:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
The answer to your question is yes, you can. The only reason I can think of you doing this is because you ran into a smoking hot deal at another dealer and didn't have a copy of your FFL. Always carry one or keep a copy online somewhere you can access it.

For the second part, you would not log it into your bound book as from them, you didn't receive it from them. You received it from yourself and should log it that way.

Jeff
This is my vote for reasoning and solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgill View Post
For example, if I have a GSSF (Glock) certificate to buy at GSSF price, SOCAL store that sells them says their policy is to only sell those directly to GSSF members and they will not sell to an FFL. In other words, they do the 4473/DROS and won’t let me flash my FFL and pay. So I say no problem because it’s worth the price and hassle. Can I but without using FFL? When I return to shop I log into book even though I used 4473.
All those Glock rules are their company policy and have no criminal legal weight.

There is also this. The ATF doesn't give a flip. If you DROS a gun and then sell it to a dealer, the ATF doesn't care even if you sell it to yourself. All they care about is that you are not buying guns personally without 4473 and then transferring them without 4473 as a dealer. If you are 4473 and DROSing them, they don't care how you got them. And this really only applies to Free America where face to face transactions are legal.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 09-10-2019 at 5:51 PM..
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  #8  
Old 09-11-2019, 6:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgill View Post
Got it, thanks. I agree - buying with FFL or via 4473, logging into book is required.

Does anyone believe there is any legal requirement that prohibits me from buying via 4473?

For example, if I have a GSSF (Glock) certificate to buy at GSSF price, SOCAL store that sells them says their policy is to only sell those directly to GSSF members and they will not sell to an FFL. In other words, they do the 4473/DROS and won’t let me flash my FFL and pay. So I say no problem because it’s worth the price and hassle. Can I but without using FFL? When I return to shop I log into book even though I used 4473.
As far as I know yes. I have done it a few times when I forgot my FFL. I just logged into the book. My ATF guy said it was fine.

FFL exempts from the 4473.

For NFA it would be a huge hassle since you lose the tax exemption and go from a 5 day wait to a 10 month wait.
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  #9  
Old 09-11-2019, 7:34 AM
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Separate related questions:
1) sole proprietor's have to log personal guns into their FFL bound book?

2) Or is OP purchasing through GSSF a gun for stock and paying sales tax on it twice?
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Old 09-11-2019, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Separate related questions:
1) sole proprietor's have to log personal guns into their FFL bound book?

2) Or is OP purchasing through GSSF a gun for stock and paying sales tax on it twice?
1. any personal guns owned prior to becoming an ffl do not have to be added to log book but must either be separated from inventory or tagged as not for sale.

any guns purchased/transferred in for any reason must be added to bound book. they can then be disposed out as personal property and must follow rule 1. those items cannot be sold within 1 year of being off the books as private sales and must be added back on. After 1 year it is suggested to add back on but not required.

2. yep. no tax exemptions so best to remember the ffl unless it si cheaper to just pay tax.
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  #11  
Old 09-11-2019, 7:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
1. any personal guns owned prior to becoming an ffl do not have to be added to log book but must either be separated from inventory or tagged as not for sale.

any guns purchased/transferred in for any reason must be added to bound book. they can then be disposed out as personal property and must follow rule 1. those items cannot be sold within 1 year of being off the books as private sales and must be added back on. After 1 year it is suggested to add back on but not required.

2. yep. no tax exemptions so best to remember the ffl unless it si cheaper to just pay tax.
For those of you in CA why can't method 1 be used for a sole proprietor to get off roster pistols if they just assign it out to themselves from their boundbook w/no DROS?

If it does require a DROS then how can they ever own an off roster pistol if it goes into their bound book and they have to DROS to themselves?

I'm sure this is covered elsewhere so feel free to just send me the link and I'll re-read it vs rehash it.

Thanks
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Old 09-11-2019, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
For those of you in CA why can't method 1 be used for a sole proprietor to get off roster pistols if they just assign it out to themselves from their boundbook w/no DROS?

If it does require a DROS then how can they ever own an off roster pistol if it goes into their bound book and they have to DROS to themselves?

I'm sure this is covered elsewhere so feel free to just send me the link and I'll re-read it vs rehash it.

Thanks
No idea how CA and DROS works but almost all my personal use guns are on my bound books as inventory. Makes no sense to remove them from the books unless they are guns I want to gift. When I get bored or don't like them I sell as demo models that have never been on a 4473 before. All my machine guns are controlled by my bound books so I have to log out and in anytime they leave my premises. Let's me open carry my selectfire Glock whenever I want.

I buy my kid guns all the time and i have to keep them off the books for 1 year before I can hand them over to him as a gift otherwise it would be illegal transfers to a minor. He gets to shoot them within that year but they are technicallyt not his and tagged as mine until the 1 yr rolls over.
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Old 09-11-2019, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
For those of you in CA why can't method 1 be used for a sole proprietor to get off roster pistols if they just assign it out to themselves from their boundbook w/no DROS?

If it does require a DROS then how can they ever own an off roster pistol if it goes into their bound book and they have to DROS to themselves?

I'm sure this is covered elsewhere so feel free to just send me the link and I'll re-read it vs rehash it.

Thanks
Good question.... Could it be DROS'd as a PPT, go through the wait to satisfy CA then put in book when recieved, then logged out to satisfy Feds? I guess it was answered in the second post, sort of. Hope to get a clear answer.
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Last edited by wchutt; 09-11-2019 at 8:04 PM.. Reason: Rethink
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Old 09-12-2019, 5:15 AM
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Good question.... Could it be DROS'd as a PPT, go through the wait to satisfy CA then put in book when recieved, then logged out to satisfy Feds? I guess it was answered in the second post, sort of. Hope to get a clear answer.
that sounds reasonable but i doubt ppt was the intent of the question. more like new off roster from distributor. why pay the premium of a ppt?
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Old 09-12-2019, 5:35 AM
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The question would be how to acquire a personal off roster pistol. While you can use one in inventory I don't think you could show it is yours and do things like put it on a permit.
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Old 09-12-2019, 8:09 AM
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The question would be how to acquire a personal off roster pistol. While you can use one in inventory I don't think you could show it is yours and do things like put it on a permit.
Not as far as I know. I know a former FFL that got in trouble for that in CA. Tried to PPT guns from his FFL to himself like he was 2 parties. Keyword is former as in FFL yanked in lieu of jail time.
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Old 09-12-2019, 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by audiophil2 View Post
Not as far as I know. I know a former FFL that got in trouble for that in CA. Tried to PPT guns from his FFL to himself like he was 2 parties. Keyword is former as in FFL yanked in lieu of jail time.
Yep, the CADOJ has put out a couple bulletins about it, and specifically stated that being an FFL Licensee, and CFD holder does not make you as an individual exempt.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
For the second part, you would not log it into your bound book as from them, you didn't receive it from them. You received it from yourself and should log it that way.
Incorrect, as a sole proprietor you are required to record any firearms that you receive, regardless as to how you received it. If you were licensed as something other than a sole proprietor, then you wouldn't record it as you are not personally licensed.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
For those of you in CA why can't method 1 be used for a sole proprietor to get off roster pistols if they just assign it out to themselves from their boundbook w/no DROS?
Any firearm transferred to a FFL's personal collection has to have a DROS, with the exception of a C&R FFL holder who physically acquires it while out of state, then it has to be logged with the form or CFARS.

Quote:
If it does require a DROS then how can they ever own an off roster pistol if it goes into their bound book and they have to DROS to themselves?
It requires a DROS, either under their license or at another FFL as a PPT. The sole proprietor logging requirement is Federal and does not affect the state DROS requirement. So while it might be a bit strange, it is how it is done.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgill View Post
I am an FFL 01 Sole Proprietorship.
Am I required to ALWAYS use my license when I purchase a firearm from another FFL?
In other words, am I allowed to walk into Firearm Store XYZ and go through the normal ATF/CA DOJ 4473/DROS purchase process, and wait period, etc without showing/using my FFL?
Then when I return to my shop with the firearm I enter it into my A&D book showing the Firearm Store XYZ FFL as the “From Whom Received”.
The question might sound crazy, but someone told me, since I am licensed, I must always use my license to buy a firearm.
No, you are not required to use your license and some FFLs will refuse to do the transfer without a 4473 even though it isn't required when you are personally licensed (sole proprietor). So, you can go in and buy like anyone else and then you have to log it in your bound book when you return as you are a sole proprietor.

A FFL should honor your CFD to avoid the waiting period and as a sole proprietor they should know that if you are licensed that you are not required to fill out a 4473, but good luck in educating everyone.
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Old 09-12-2019, 1:52 PM
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Just to help with more info. I'm looking for Star BM and Makarovs. I want to purchase about 4 Stars to hold onto and shoot since they are so cheap. Doing this in California will suck. Also, there aren't many here for pot.
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Old 09-13-2019, 3:41 PM
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There are C&R Makarovs which are roster exempt.
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