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  #41  
Old 09-18-2019, 4:40 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
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Originally Posted by FLIGHT762 View Post
"Shoulder bump"
that and headspace, and camming over your press. those usually get him like saying candyman.
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  #42  
Old 09-18-2019, 4:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
This is pretty representative of how cases have always looked coming out of this gun, the exception being that only the brass cases have sooted past the neck. The nickel cased factory ammo has only ever sooted the neck up, never the shoulder.



I'll get the loupe out and see if I can see a wrinkle on that blown case.
sure as hell looks like gas cutting to me and not cracking. No way to really know unless you have access to a DT and NDT lab
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  #43  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
No one even mentioned tensions or datum and he still showed up. Interesting. I wonder what other word summons him.
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"Shoulder bump"
I considered not getting involved because I do not enjoy bringing out the dysfunctional side of the reloader. And then? I decided this thread would go for another 6 pages with reloaders repeating what they read on the Internet; so I wondered what reloading would be like without me.

You are not going to solve your problem by ignoring; wait, that is what you have been doing.

Quote:
Never had this happen with factory ammo before
From the beginning you have believed you had a problem with splits/cracks. And then there are those that responded, not my fault, they do not have a clue.

If there is anyone one on this forum that can put their anger aside I would suggest that individual look at what he believes to be splits. I should not have to provoke anyone to think but here goes. The damage to the case is caused by hot high pressure metal cutting gas, I understand, you can not prove you have a split, PROBLEM the gap proves there is something missing.

What is missing? Missing is the brass that would have filled the gap if it was a crack and or split. What does that mean? Hot high pressure metal cutting gas escaping cut the hole.

And now? Those that did not have a clue yesterday will claim they made the discovery all by themselves.

F. Guffey
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  #44  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
sure as hell looks like gas cutting to me and not cracking. No way to really know unless you have access to a DT and NDT lab
It is possible that you are correct since this is speculation related to case-forming wrinkles.

I have a pic of what a "wrinkle" looks like on a Lapua 6mmBR (not my cases) that occurs during factory forming. This one is very obvious but the two I have found so far were less visible but much longer, extending from the shoulder angle into the neck. They looked more like a seam than a crack, which is jagged. I culled them and they were not fired, so I don't know how they would react under firing.

This is based on seeing similarity since the divot on the base of the wrinkle looks somewhat like the base of the "crack" on the failed case, the crack is straight and verticle like the wrinkle. Either way, wrinkles are common to the forming of small necked cartridges and sometimes get past final inspection.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 09-18-2019 at 5:45 AM..
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  #45  
Old 09-18-2019, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
Are you saying that the cases are are splitting at the neck because there's not enough chamber pressure built up quickly enough to properly obturate the bore allowing gas to blow by over the shoulder and cut/crack it?
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
sure as hell looks like gas cutting to me and not cracking. No way to really know unless you have access to a DT and NDT lab
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
The damage to the case is caused by hot high pressure metal cutting gas, I understand, you can not prove you have a split, PROBLEM the gap proves there is something missing.

What is missing? Missing is the brass that would have filled the gap if it was a crack and or split. What does that mean? Hot high pressure metal cutting gas escaping cut the hole.
Update, there's actually 3 cases with this split/crack/cut. I apparently had one do the same some time ago (from this same box) and just forgot about it. Looks similar to the other ones.

I grabbed a 20x loupe and took a closer look at the cases, I wish I could get pictures at that magnification but I'm not set up to do so and this is about as good as it gets for pictures:



It looks to me like there is a small bit at the base of the shoulder that was pushed in, and from there it looks like the rest of the split/crack/cut has been cut upwards towards the neck. The sides on the split/crack/cut are parallel to each other and don't, so far as I can tell, show any tearing or shearing. At the top of the neck it's hard to tell but it looks like ejecta/spatter moving forwards towards the case mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
It is possible that you are correct since this is speculation related to case-forming wrinkles.

I have a pic of what a "wrinkle" looks like on a Lapua 6mmBR (not my cases) that occurs during factory forming. This one is very obvious but the two I have found so far were less visible but much longer, extending from the shoulder angle into the neck. They looked more like a seam than a crack, which is jagged. I culled them and they were not fired, so I don't know how they would react under firing.

This is based on seeing similarity since the divot on the base of the wrinkle looks somewhat like the base of the "crack" on the failed case, the crack is straight and verticle like the wrinkle. Either way, wrinkles are common to the forming of small necked cartridges and sometimes get past final inspection.
Upon inspecting the rest of the ammo in this particular box I've noticed that a number of rounds have a small gouge at the base of the shoulder like perhaps the forming die had a chip or something caught in it. It doesn't look very severe to me, but what do I know? No dents at the base of the shoulder on anything left in this box, though one round had a dent in the middle of the shoulder. Either way, no wrinkles like what you've shown above in this batch at least.
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  #46  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:00 AM
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It is possible that you are correct since this is speculation related to case-forming wrinkles.
When it comes to speculation leave me out, I said the missing metal in the gap is caused by hot high pressure mental cutting gas. I started by saying the neck did not seal the chamber, I said the gas got trapped between the case body and chamber. There is a possible the case developed a bulge behind the neck; when the pressure inside of the case dropped, when the pressure inside the case dripped the gas trapped between the case body and chamber escaped. When the pressure escaped it cut a path past the shoulder and neck.

What does this me? While the hot high pressure metal cutting gas was escaping it could have cut the chamber (if it is possible anyone on this forum to imagine it). So while the case was being cut the chamber was being cut. Just like a bolt face.

You are practicing some bad habits. I can not distinguish fact from fiction when someone is telling me about his methods and or techniques.

F. Guffey

Last edited by fguffey; 09-18-2019 at 11:04 AM..
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  #47  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:15 AM
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What does this me?
Indeed!
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  #48  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:21 AM
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It is possible that you are correct since this is speculation related to case-forming wrinkles.
I do not know of a case former that would use speculation/guessing on what caused the gap/missing brass.

I went to a firing range with boxes of formed cases, I gathered information from the Internet on 'HOW TO FORM CASES'' it was the ugliest bunch of cases I have ever loaded. But I did not take any less pride in firing the ugly ones that I did when I shot the 'good looking' ones.

I hardly got started when the shooter next to me said; "Tell me you are not going to shoot those rounds" so I said "I am not going to shoot those rounds" and then I started shooting them until I had shot everyone them.

He then said 'I thought you said you were not going to shoot this ammo", and then I reminded him he told me to say that, so to make him happy I told him what he wanted me to say.

Any how, The cases were creased, dented, folded crushed etc. etc.. I did not have a case that suffered a split and or crack and it was no surprise to me all of the creases, dents, folds and crushed area did not pop out. And then I loaded up some of the worst cases and fired them again the creases folds etc. etc. did not pop out.


I am the fan of forming first and then firing.

F. Guffey
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  #49  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post

I am the fan of forming first and then firing.

F. Guffey
Good luck with that on an AI chamber
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  #50  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
It is possible that you are correct since this is speculation related to case-forming wrinkles.

I have a pic of what a "wrinkle" looks like on a Lapua 6mmBR (not my cases) that occurs during factory forming. This one is very obvious but the two I have found so far were less visible but much longer, extending from the shoulder angle into the neck. They looked more like a seam than a crack, which is jagged. I culled them and they were not fired, so I don't know how they would react under firing.

This is based on seeing similarity since the divot on the base of the wrinkle looks somewhat like the base of the "crack" on the failed case, the crack is straight and verticle like the wrinkle. Either way, wrinkles are common to the forming of small necked cartridges and sometimes get past final inspection.

Ah forming wrinkle. Yeah that could cause the same situation. weak spot in the brass and gas cutting afterwards. Interesting.
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  #51  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
I checked the rest of the ammo in that particular box and non of it seems to be wrinkled or have any sort of deformation in the neck. Maybe I can't see it, but it looks fine.
That does not rule out the obvious bad ones though.

If you think it does, that's like taking any statistic and saying "well, all these other cases are different than the outliers so it can't be that".
Your split ones ARE the outliers and the obvious proof of the problem.
All this other arguing about bad powder and such is not the problem here.
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  #52  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Nobody noticed AR15's point here, did they?
The wrinkle is pretty common in the production of WSSM, 6mmBR, 20PPC, etc.
The truth is often not as exciting to argue.
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  #53  
Old 09-18-2019, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
That does not rule out the obvious bad ones though.

If you think it does, that's like taking any statistic and saying "well, all these other cases are different than the outliers so it can't be that".
Your split ones ARE the outliers and the obvious proof of the problem.
All this other arguing about bad powder and such is not the problem here.
I am not discounting that they may have been wrinkled, just observing that the other 10 or so in the box are not.
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  #54  
Old 09-18-2019, 11:21 PM
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I am not discounting that they may have been wrinkled, just observing that the other 10 or so in the box are not.
It's always a very small percentage.
Usually less than 1/100 on 243 which is what I have seen the most problems with simply because I have used so much of it.
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  #55  
Old 09-19-2019, 5:08 AM
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I am not discounting that they may have been wrinkled, just observing that the other 10 or so in the box are not.
I am discounting the possibility they could have been wrinkled. I have wrinkled cases. I have followed Internet instructions when forming cases, I have formed and creased cases 'big time'. When firing poorly formed cases I have never had one suffer gas cutting.

And then I did something an Internet reloaders can not do, I move the shoulder of the case back. The case body below the case body/shoulder juncture folded/collapsed. And then I loaded and fired the cases, The wrinkles, dents and folds did not straighten out, the case had reduced capacity but no signs of gas cutting, splits or cracks.

Again, reloaders claim they can move the shoulder back, some believe they are so good at it they 'bump' the shoulder back; and I ask "How do they do that?". I ask because in my attempts to follow instructions from the Internet I find it impossible to move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has full case body support.

F. Guffey
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  #56  
Old 09-19-2019, 7:43 AM
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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
No one even mentioned tensions or datum and he still showed up. Interesting. I wonder what other word summons him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIGHT762 View Post
"Shoulder bump"
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
that and headspace, and camming over your press. those usually get him like saying candyman.
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post

And then I did something an Internet reloaders can not do, I move the shoulder of the case back. The case body below the case body/shoulder juncture folded/collapsed. And then I loaded and fired the cases, The wrinkles, dents and folds did not straighten out, the case had reduced capacity but no signs of gas cutting, splits or cracks.

Again, reloaders claim they can move the shoulder back, some believe they are so good at it they 'bump' the shoulder back; and I ask "How do they do that?". I ask because in my attempts to follow instructions from the Internet I find it impossible to move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has full case body support.

F. Guffey

^^^^^^^^^^^^Success^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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  #57  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:58 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^Success^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not quite, I thought one of you reloaders would make a worth while contribution and put some of the silly stuff aside, not really.

There was room for improvement, I deliberately left out the part that covers cases that do not suffer from hot high pressure metal cutting gas.

And there is a reason why the other case does not suffer the burnt out gap caused the hot high pressure metal cutting gas. Both cases suffer the same problem and then one case suffers the 'Gerdy' gap and the other case goes through a lot of stuff but does not cause the reloader to waste his time trying to speculate/take wild guesses.

F. Guffey
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  #58  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:15 AM
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I know there was a picture a 'case wrinkle' posted above that was said to be pretty extreme, would be this a more normal representation? It's difficult for me to tell if that's just a small straight scratch or something else.

EDIT: Never mind, that's actually a pretty decent scratch/gouge once I looked at it with the loupe.



I found another one that seems to have a tiny dent in the base of the shoulder.

I'll just dig through my existing factory ammo, mark suspect cases, and see if they split/cut or not on firing. No need to argue about it being possible or not.

Either way, it seems to be endemic to the brass cased stuff produced by Winchester a couple of years back. The nickel plated factory stuff loaded with ballistic tips has never sooted past the case neck that I remember (this newer brass case stuff has), and with my reloads I realize that they need to be pretty warm (no downloading, not that I feel a need to anyway) to properly expand the neck in the chamber. Ah well, at least I've already got plenty of brass, now to learn how to anneal it all.
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Last edited by NapalmCheese; 09-19-2019 at 11:19 AM..
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  #59  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:39 AM
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I found another one that seems to have a tiny dent in the base of the shoulder.
NapalmCheese, Again, I form cases, I have formed cases that had deep creases at the neck, shoulder and the case below the shoulder. I have never had one of the dents, creases and or folds turn into a gas cut hole nor have I have one flatten out unless it was shallow/ little bitty.

Again, I would check the chamber for gas cutting, if the brass is suffering gas cuts the chamber is suffering gas cuts. many years ago Bruise Hodgdon came to our house. It seemed he had two phone calls the day before describing problems that were similar. One rifle came apart and my older brothers Model 70 270 Winchester was shooting 10' high.

I would not continue using the same components, the chamber will not tolerate gas cutting. Step back, take a breath and then start over. I would put the powder out of reach until I found the problem.

F. Guffey
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  #60  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:13 PM
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Again, I would check the chamber for gas cutting, if the brass is suffering gas cuts the chamber is suffering gas cuts.
That's on the to-do list. I assumed there would be either ablation/erosion or brazed on brass in the chamber; I'm just trying to find a decent way to get a good look. My cheapy USB endoscope is meant for plumbing work and won't focus on anything that close. Given that it's on shoulder I should be able to see it fairly easily.
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  #61  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
That's on the to-do list. I assumed there would be either ablation/erosion or brazed on brass in the chamber; I'm just trying to find a decent way to get a good look. My cheapy USB endoscope is meant for plumbing work and won't focus on anything that close. Given that it's on shoulder I should be able to see it fairly easily.
make a cerosafe cast. any material left in there will come out with the cast. any gas cutting will show on the cast piece.
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Old 09-19-2019, 1:32 PM
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make a cerosafe cast. any material left in there will come out with the cast. any gas cutting will show on the cast piece.
I actually got a pretty okay shot.



Obviously there's lint from when I swabbed the chamber, and you can see some powder residue down the bore in a couple of other shots. There is some discoloration in the chamber in the shoulder area.
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  #63  
Old 09-20-2019, 4:41 AM
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My cheapy USB endoscope is meant for plumbing work and won't focus on anything that close.
I purchased a Milwaukee scope for locating oil and water leaks, so far it has worked, like yours it does not work all that well in a chamber.

In your last picture I can see the 'lint', I can see anomalies on the shoulder,

Chamber casting: Casting chambers is another topic I am not allowed to participate in, I do have one student, he one of the best.

F. Guffey
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  #64  
Old 09-20-2019, 7:17 AM
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Never seen such a clean line as that on a split, usually a bit jagged in my experience
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Old 09-20-2019, 9:23 AM
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Never seen such a clean line as that on a split, usually a bit jagged in my experience
I agree, there are factors reloaders will not consider when speculating/guessing; time and distance, when the case splits? under pressure they will not consider how fast the case splits.

And then there is accepting the purpose of the case. There has to be a way to hold the bullet, primer to the case and there has to be a way to contain the powder. The first thing the case must do is expand to seal the chamber between the case and chamber. Pressure trapped between the case and chamber was released when the pressure inside the case dropped.

More times than not with different designed chamber the case will collapse when the pressure inside the case drops. Other cases will look as thought they were hit with a shaped charge in the case body.

Seal the chamber: There is stretch and there is flow, I have tried to get reloaders to consider there is a possibility there is stretch and flow. And there is form, I understand I drive reloaders to the curb when I ask them how is it possible to push the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support, and then there are those that claim they are so good at it they 'bump' it back.

POINT? If they do not understand stretch and or flow they will never figure out what happens to the shoulder when sizing a case with a die that has full case body support.
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Old 09-22-2019, 7:30 AM
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This is very common with the wssm brass for years now. Those cases are as thick as 50 BMC brass so you can't download your ammo without sooting everything up.
In your situation the factory ammo tore open upon firing trying to fit your chamber due to the thickness of the brass and it's poor quality.
One poster here said he has loaded up a lot of bad brass and after reading years of his posts I assume most of his brass is bad. His lack of seeing a straight split means he hasn't shot as much brass as he claims because it is a common sight for an experienced Reloader.

If you want to reload for the 223 wssm 243 was or 25 wssm you need a custom reamer ground with a tight neck so you can turn your necks.
If you don't turn the necks you either shoot maximum loads or you collapse your brass and soot up your cases.
Anyone who has relocated the shoulder on a wildcat has split some brass. The only poster who says differently also says you can't move the shoulder which is blatantly false.
You will also get those exact same splits in the vertical plane when you use an expandiron to neck up brass for neck turning or creating a false shoulder.
If you look at the pictures ask the poster who has never seen a split shoulder how he would full length size the brass with two shoulders? He won't respond because he doesn't know.
If you look at the collapsed 375/50 BMG brass that is exactly what happens with WSSM brass with light loads.
That brass won a match and the only reason I did that to $5 a piece brass was it shot good at the low node but would blow up the bullets at the next node and I didn't have data for my solids.
In your example the brass split on expanding to fit the chamber so it didn't seal and sooted up your cases.
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  #67  
Old 09-22-2019, 7:41 AM
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You *might* want to call Winchester and let them know.

This.
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  #68  
Old 09-24-2019, 7:13 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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I've had .243 brass split like that but it was used and I assume it had been heavily worked. I would not expect new brass to split that way, which suggests it's either badly made or it's been reloaded too many times.

You *might* want to call Winchester and let them know.
Jack Ellis claimed he had cases split 'like that', and then he suggested the brass had been worked or poorly made. The OP claims the ammo was over the counter, factory made, new.

So I suggest the OP send the 'still new in the box unfired ammo' back to Winchester. Feed back from manufacturers indicate they are hiring reloaders to replace the old folks.

I received a phone call from a range asking me what is wrong with Remington ammo; I had to say "I do not know but if you look at the box the ammo came in you will find their phone number", I did not think much of it but that afternoon another reloaders from the area shows up with 5 failed to fire rounds and 15 cases that did fire.

So I dug out a stack of tools and started. I was very impressed with Remington and their precision. I was impressed with the chamber in the shooters new rifle. The 5 failed to fire rounds had 6 attempts at busting the primers in three different rifles. I pulled the bullets, measured the cases and removed the primers, I then weighed everything. I then reinstalled the primers, chambered the cases without powder/bullets and busted the primers one at a time in one of my M1917s.

Each primer busted, when the cases were ejected the primers did not protrude. And then I suggested we call the unhappy owner of the 5 failed to fire case with the new rifle. No one got his phone number or name, so at the end of the day ever one involved left the range cussing Remington ammo.

There was not .001" difference in the length of the fired and failed to fire cases when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case heads. That means nothing to most but I was impressed. I have one non-Weatherby 300 Win Mag. like that.

F. Guffey
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  #69  
Old 09-24-2019, 8:05 AM
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NapalmCheese NapalmCheese is offline
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I spent some time at the range and reloading bench this weekend gearing up for antelope and mule deer in Wyoming. I might give Winchester a call about the ammo and see what they say.

So far I have a load shooting a 100 grain SGK at 3000 fps with 41.2 grains of Varget in nickel plated brass out of a 22 inch barrel, it's not a max load. The velocity has been flat at 3000 from 40.4 - 41.5 grains (book max) so I figure Varget is played out and will be switching to a different powder. From the soot on the cases I think there's still room to go up past 41.5, but I'll wait to do so until I can get the chrony out. Until then I've got a few loaded up at 3000 fps just waiting for antelope and prairie dogs. None of the once fired nickel plated cases have split/cut/collapsed yet.
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Old 09-24-2019, 2:06 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Until then I've got a few loaded up at 3000 fps just waiting for antelope and prairie dogs. None of the once fired nickel plated cases have split/cut/collapsed yet.
We have a member that covers the reloading forums like the wind. He claims he has fired cases 45 times with maximum loads without any effect, members of the forums just love him.

A company that has tested the effect of annealing and the effect of ignoring annealing claim the work hardened brass has 'thoing' (sound) and snap back, or jump back or spring back. They claim the snap, jump or spring back cases allows gas to escape past the neck. The company that is publishing the article/results of test suggest annealing ever time the case is fired. And we still have the reloaders/shooter/ etc. firing cases 45 times without effect.

Again, soot on the case is a bad thing. Another reloader gave me 80 7 Remington Mag. cases. The only way I could remove the carbon on the necks was to scrape it off with a very sharp knife. I ask him if the cases belonged to him, he said no, he said he purchased the cases from the widow of another reloader. By that time the rifle had been sold. I have no ideal how difficult it was for the bullet to be released by the carboned up neck and chamber.

Please keep us posted, there is a chance you could get a couple of boxes of ammo for your troubles.

F. Guffey
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  #71  
Old 09-24-2019, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
If you want to reload for the 223 wssm 243 was or 25 wssm you need a custom reamer ground with a tight neck so you can turn your necks.
If you don't turn the necks you either shoot maximum loads or you collapse your brass and soot up your cases.
I had often wondered what to do with this gun if it couldn't be made to shoot worth a darn. Historically it's always placed two bullets right next to each other and a third somewhere out in left field with the 85 and 115 grain factory offerings. It's a light gun so while marksmanship may have something to do with it, two different people have had the same results. Could be the skinny hunting barrel is moving a LOT while heating, I don't know. So now I'm using the gun as a learning tool, learning to load to max, learning to play with seating depth, learning, learning, learning.

I thought that when this barrel was shot out I might rebarrel the action to a single shot heavy contour 28ish inch 300 WSM. The bolt face is correct and the action length is long enough to eject an empty case, but not long enough to eject a live round without removing the bolt.

Now though I'm having some fun. When it's time to rebarrel I'll probably have someone spin on another .257 barrel (maybe another sporter weight but 24 inches. At just under 7lbs with a scope it carries pretty well), at which point I can get an appropriate reamer and have a new 25 WSSM chamber cut and learn new things, like neck turning brass.

Either way, it's a learning experience and there's plenty of time before it'll need a new barrel. Gives me a reason to spend more time reloading.
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Old 09-24-2019, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
Again, soot on the case is a bad thing.
Yeah, I'm gathering that. This particular load is interesting to me because at 41.5-41.8 grains of powder I'm seeing the soot level stop about halfway down the case neck, which is good and groups started to tighten up again at 41.8, they were terrible at 41.5, good at 41.2 but I'm seeing soot back down onto the shoulder at that charge.

But I also know that there's a velocity node from 40.4 - 41.5 and I imagine to reach the next one I'd be pushing more pressure than is advisable, though I could use some more chrono data to make sure. So, I figure a change of powder is in order.
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