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  #1  
Old 10-18-2018, 7:14 AM
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Default Delta and TSA

Greetings All
Flying again out of southern CA the Delta clerk was out of line not to mention disrespectful. I can deal with all that but the hurdle was her demand I have TSA approved locks on the outside of my roller pelican case. This is in fact wrong and against federal law.

I use metal locking gun cases for handguns then lock them inside the pelican case with standard over the counter padlocks. I've done this many times in many airports all across the country. I've never had a problem other than different clerks doing things a little differently from other clerks. It took 2 other clerks as well as a TSA agent to overrule her despite my explaining law to her.

Moral of the story: know laws and regulations when you fly, and stand your ground (while being polite and professional).

Have a great day-
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Old 10-18-2018, 9:13 AM
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Thanks for the heads up .... But i think California does not have a "STAND YOUR GROUND LAW"......heheheheh
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Old 10-18-2018, 9:51 AM
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Every agent has their own idea of what the regs are. Often they'll invent their own. I found it's simply best to just agree that you've already done that with whatever they're requesting.

I used to travel with both the airline's regs and the TSA regs with me. But when you produce them, they dig-in and won't budge even when they know they're wrong. I can't tell you how many times I've been told they don't give a damn what the regs say, it's their way or the highway.

There's been more than one trip where they wouldn't budge on their fake regs and I had to take my gun back to my car and leave it for the trip. Fortunately, it was never a hunting trip.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:03 AM
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I think her confusion, which I find reasonable, is that you are locking the handgun in the non TSA-locked metal case, then placing that in the Pelican with non-TSA locks too. Did you have any other firearms in the Pelican case?

When I take my pistol in my checked luggage, I place it in a non-TSA locked metal case BUT my luggage has TSA locks as required per the regulations.

If there were no firearms outside of the metal case but inside of your pelican, I think it would be reasonable for her to expect TSA locks on your pelican as it would still be subject to TSA inspection. If there are other firearms in the pelican, then there would be no reason to lock your pistol in a separate case, and non-TSA locks would be appropriate to secure the pelican.
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Old 10-18-2018, 1:52 PM
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meh, almost easier to buy your own plane rather than traveling commercial
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Old 10-18-2018, 2:50 PM
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meh, almost easier to buy your own plane rather than traveling commercial
I agree. Having huge amounts of money is always better then having small amounts of money.

In 2011, there were 224,475 total privately owned aircraft that are registered with the FAA as "General aviation" (meaning not commercial). (source: AOPA)

US population in 2011: 310 million (source: Google)

Max percentage of US population that owned an airplane. (This assumes nobody owns more then 1 airplane, if they do then this number gets smaller)
>>> 224,475.0/310,000,000.0
0.0007241129032258065

As of 2011, a maximum of 0.07% of the population owned an airplane that was registered as general aviation.
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Old 11-08-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
I think her confusion, which I find reasonable, is that you are locking the handgun in the non TSA-locked metal case, then placing that in the Pelican with non-TSA locks too. Did you have any other firearms in the Pelican case?

When I take my pistol in my checked luggage, I place it in a non-TSA locked metal case BUT my luggage has TSA locks as required per the regulations.

If there were no firearms outside of the metal case but inside of your pelican, I think it would be reasonable for her to expect TSA locks on your pelican as it would still be subject to TSA inspection. If there are other firearms in the pelican, then there would be no reason to lock your pistol in a separate case, and non-TSA locks would be appropriate to secure the pelican.
To be clear it is actually a federal offense to secure firearms with TSA locks. That law only applies to transporting certain antiquities and collectable wines. Looking a firearm in a non-TSA case then locking it in luggage with TSA locks does not prevent workers from stealing your guns. Only locking them with non-TSA locks can achieve that (in principle).

As well, taking guns back out to the car is not a viable option. I for one cannot ethically leave guns in a car left at an airport. This is also not an option for most who use cabs or must travel through multiple locations.

Another reason I hate to fly and drive instead unless unable. For me the only solution (and only correct solution) is to stand up for my rights, know policy, and demand to speak with a supervisor or other.

In this case, another Delta clerk knew the law and regulations stepped in to correct the not only disrespectful, but incorrect in all accounts, clerk who tried to bully me in front of dozens of other passengers.

The moral of the story is stand up to these liberal bullies in all areas. Having a spare set of TSA locks in your luggage for extreme situations might not be a bad idea either. It would actually be legally wrong to force you to use them but in a hostile environment with no recourse it could save a guy from missing his flight.
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Old 11-08-2018, 10:56 AM
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Plus delta charges for checked bags.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:10 AM
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Plus delta charges for checked bags.
It adds up quick.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:19 AM
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It sucks that you need to print the rules and bring them to the airport when traveling with a firearm
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:31 AM
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It sucks that you need to print the rules and bring them to the airport when traveling with a firearm
Had them in my pocket. Didn't help any with her that's for sure. Despite the intervention of 2 of her peers, printed out law and regulations, and a helpful TSA agent (thanks), she was still arguing based upon what she thought was "right" as I was walking away.

We must collectively stand up for our rights now or face the unchecked momentum of the angry mob.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:27 PM
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To be clear it is actually a federal offense to secure firearms with TSA locks.
You are yet another "sure you are right" but IGNORANT gun owner in this regard...

Here is the actual QUOTE from the TSA website... yes the official TSA website; https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transport...and-ammunition

"Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations.You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks."


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Originally Posted by Wallflood View Post
Looking a firearm in a non-TSA case then locking it in luggage with TSA locks does not prevent workers from stealing your guns. Only locking them with non-TSA locks can achieve that (in principle).

1) Note that the TSE expects and allows your hard pistol case to be locked and INSIDE your normal checked luggage...but it must be a hard secure case. I use a pelican 1150 case that is approx 7"x 9" x 4" .
Again .. from,yes, the TSA website; "Be aware that the container the firearm was in when purchased may not adequately secure the firearm when it is transported in checked baggage."

2) Nothing you do will keep airline employees from stealing your gun if they want to steal it...taking the entire bag if necessary. Using a "gun type external case" for handguns invites that theft. If you are just carrying a handgun, use a secure pistol case INSIDE your regular mundane checked baggage. Obviously traveling with long guns requires they be in a stand alone secure container.. again.. I use a locked (with TSA locks) pelican long case. Again, NEVER a problem in over 20 flights with a long gun.

3) A hard container does not have to describe the piece of baggage itself. I have always flown (well of 100 flights) with a small pelican case just big enough for my handgun and ammo, locked with TSA locks and placed in my normal Tumi hard plastic checked bag or a soft leather grip style bag. NEVER a problem. EVER!

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Old 11-08-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Wallflood View Post
Greetings All
Flying again out of southern CA the Delta clerk was out of line not to mention disrespectful. I can deal with all that but the hurdle was her demand I have TSA approved locks on the outside of my roller pelican case. This is in fact wrong and against federal law.

I use metal locking gun cases for handguns then lock them inside the pelican case with standard over the counter padlocks. I've done this many times in many airports all across the country. I've never had a problem other than different clerks doing things a little differently from other clerks. It took 2 other clerks as well as a TSA agent to overrule her despite my explaining law to her.

Moral of the story: know laws and regulations when you fly, and stand your ground (while being polite and professional).

Have a great day-
Thanks for sharing your story. I often use stories like this when I teach my Utah CCW classes.

I travel fairly frequently and take my gun anytime it is not international (or NY, NJ, or HI) and never had any major issues. The only issue I had was at Atlanta airport needing to take my bag to TSA, which was about a 15 minute walk each way plus about a 10 minute wait for TSA...
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wallflood View Post
Had them in my pocket. Didn't help any with her that's for sure. Despite the intervention of 2 of her peers, printed out law and regulations, and a helpful TSA agent (thanks), she was still arguing based upon what she thought was "right" as I was walking away.

We must collectively stand up for our rights now or face the unchecked momentum of the angry mob.
I have dealt with an airline with regs not available to public. Agent, whose competence I initially doubted, showed me. She was correct.

So there's that.
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
You are yet another "sure you are right" but IGNORANT gun owner in this regard...

Here is the actual QUOTE from the TSA website... yes the official TSA website; https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transport...and-ammunition

"Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations.You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks."





1) Note that the TSE expects and allows your hard pistol case to be locked and INSIDE your normal checked luggage...but it must be a hard secure case. I use a pelican 1150 case that is approx 7"x 9" x 4" .
Again .. from,yes, the TSA website; "Be aware that the container the firearm was in when purchased may not adequately secure the firearm when it is transported in checked baggage."

2) Nothing you do will keep airline employees from stealing your gun if they want to steal it...taking the entire bag if necessary. Using a "gun type external case" for handguns invites that theft. If you are just carrying a handgun, use a secure pistol case INSIDE your regular mundane checked baggage. Obviously traveling with long guns requires they be in a stand alone secure container.. again.. I use a locked (with TSA locks) pelican long case. Again, NEVER a problem in over 20 flights with a long gun.

3) A hard container does not have to describe the piece of baggage itself. I have always flown (well of 100 flights) with a small pelican case just big enough for my handgun and ammo, locked with TSA locks and placed in my normal Tumi hard plastic checked bag or a soft leather grip style bag. NEVER a problem. EVER!


I won't use a TSA lock on my gun case because it makes it that much easier to open it by airport personnel. I agree that it can be stolen fairly easily if they want to steal it either way. However, I will still make it as difficult as possible.

The OP was wrong that it is against the law to use a TSA lock (thank you for pointing that out), but I think the OP's point still stands. The OP did not need to use a TSA lock as was requested/ordered by airline personnel, and I do not blame them for not wanting to use a TSA approved lock.

Like you, I also put my gun in a hard case and then inside my regular checked baggage. However, I lock the gun case with a regular lock (not-TSA approved) and then lock the suitcase with a TSA approved lock.
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Whites of Their Eyes View Post
The OP was wrong that it is against the law to use a TSA lock (thank you for pointing that out), but I think the OP's point still stands. The OP did not need to use a TSA lock as was requested/ordered by airline personnel, and I do not blame them for not wanting to use a TSA approved lock.
Actually, you also need to be familiar with airline regulations and the airline CAN in fact require a TSA lock if it wants. It appears that Delts does not specify TSA locks... https://www.delta.com/content/www/en...ial-items.html

Shooting equipment is allowed as checked baggage only. It must fit within the very specific criteria that we outline below.

-Declare to the Delta representative that you are checking a firearm.
-Declare the existence of a firearm to security personnel if there's a security checkpoint before the Delta counter.
-All firearms must be declared by the passenger to a Delta representative at the main ticket counter.
-Present firearm(s) unloaded and sign a "Firearms Unloaded" declaration.
-Firearms must be packed in a locked manufacturer's hard-sided container specifically designed for the firearm, a locked hard–sided gun case or a locked hard-sided piece of luggage. Handguns may be packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and then packed inside an unlocked soft-sided piece of luggage. However, a Conditional Acceptance Tag must be used in this case.
-Maintain entry permits in your possession for the country or countries of destination or transit.
-Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood, plastic or metal boxes and provide separation for cartridges.
-You are responsible for knowledge of and compliance with all Federal, State or local laws regarding the possession and transportation of firearms. For more information about this regulation you can visit the TSA websiteopens in a new window.
-If you are transporting a firearm to the United Kingdom, a permit from the United Kingdom is specifically required. You must contact the United Kingdom for more information about securing this permit.
-Until further advised, passengers departing Brussels, Belgium are not allowed to check weapons including, antique, sporting, hunting or toy rifles in their checked baggage.
-Customer must be 18 years of age or older
-All firearms checked as baggage must be picked up at the Baggage Service Office upon arrival at your final destination. ID will be required to claim your checked firearm.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Whites of Their Eyes View Post
I won't use a TSA lock on my gun case because it makes it that much easier to open it by airport personnel. I agree that it can be stolen fairly easily if they want to steal it either way. However, I will still make it as difficult as possible.

The OP was wrong that it is against the law to use a TSA lock (thank you for pointing that out), but I think the OP's point still stands. The OP did not need to use a TSA lock as was requested/ordered by airline personnel, and I do not blame them for not wanting to use a TSA approved lock.

Like you, I also put my gun in a hard case and then inside my regular checked baggage. However, I lock the gun case with a regular lock (not-TSA approved) and then lock the suitcase with a TSA approved lock.
"Resistance is futile" I use the TSA locks so that I do not have to be dragged back from a club room or the gate to unlock my case. It also ensures that my bag WILL make the flight as there are no delays to inspect the gun to make sure I have complied with the law and that the gun is "safe".

If the gun is going to be stolen its going to be stolen and so far, I have never had a gun stolen and I fly with a handgun A LOT.
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Old 11-08-2018, 2:59 PM
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Actually, you also need to be familiar with airline regulations and the airline CAN in fact require a TSA lock if it wants.





"Resistance is futile" I use the TSA locks so that I do not have to be dragged back from a club room or the gate to unlock my case. It also ensures that my bag WILL make the flight as there are no delays to inspect the gun to make sure I have complied with the law and that the gun is "safe".

If the gun is going to be stolen its going to be stolen and so far, I have never had a gun stolen and I fly with a handgun A LOT.
You are correct on the first point. However, Delta does not require that currently. I do not know any airline that does require a TSA lock. However, most of my flying is on Southwest, Delta, or American, so I may be wrong about some of the others. For a while, one of them (I think it was American) actually said no TSA locks on the gun case. Looking at their current policies, this does not appear to be the case anymore.

I also fly a lot and have never had any issues. I regularly tell students to check both TSA regulations AND the policies of the airline before EACH flight. I flew to for vacation for New Years one year and the policies actually changed during my trip. I checked before my flight home and followed the new policies.

I will follow the laws and written policies. If I am told to do something that is not in either one, I will only do so if it is put in writing. I do not necessarily trust the gate agent getting paid barely above minimum wage on the policies or the law. Although I have never had any major issues, I have definitely had gate agents who were rude about it and appeared quite anti 2A. That is what I get for flying out of OAK and SFO a lot! haha

As far as the using the TSA lock to not get dragged from the club, etc, that is your choice and I certainly respect that. I definitely am not saying you are doing anything wrong. As with most things firearm related, a lot of this comes down to personal preference. Obviously, the laws and airline policies must be followed, but how you do it is usually up to you.
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