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  #41  
Old 06-13-2021, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Technically, a CA FFL isnít even supposed to distribute a non certified lock with any gun transferred. That means that a non compliant gun lock should be removed from the box and replaced with a CA Certified Lock.

This is why people say that you canít use the uncertified lock to satisfy the Feds and then use a safe affidavit.

Found that out with a couple of car safes I had laying around for personal use. Was asked if these specific two that I had were for sale because they werenít ca complaint it would of been a violation for selling non ca complaint handgun.


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  #42  
Old 06-13-2021, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
If you receive a pistol with hi-cap magazines for transfer to a non-exempt person what do you do?

What do you mean? Are you asking if you are logging the magazines into a log or are you asking about the lock?


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  #43  
Old 06-13-2021, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by XxWoodsHunterxX View Post
What do you mean? Are you asking if you are logging the magazines into a log or are you asking about the lock?


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The person I quoted effectively said "Why would I remove a non-compliant lock if the customer paid for it?"

So my ask was "If the customer paid for a hi-cap mag and were not exempt, would you not remove it?" -- similar logic to why a non-compliant lock would be removed even if it was "paid" for by the customer.
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  #44  
Old 06-13-2021, 11:47 AM
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Not an apples to apples comparison.

Distribution of a non compliant lock is not a crime, you can buy non compliant locks at any Home Depot. But distribution of hi-cap mags, different story.
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  #45  
Old 06-13-2021, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by whatmeworry View Post
Not an apples to apples comparison.

Distribution of a non compliant lock is not a crime, you can buy non compliant locks at any Home Depot. But distribution of hi-cap mags, different story.
I guess it's only a civil violation (Section 23660 is the relevant section about removing those non-CA locks):
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23670.
(a) (1) A violation of Section 23660 or 23665 is punishable by a civil fine of up to five hundred dollars ($500).

(2) A second violation of any of those sections, which occurs within five years of the date of a previous offense, is punishable by a civil fine of up to one thousand dollars ($1,000) and, if the violation is committed by a licensed firearms dealer, the dealer shall be ineligible to sell firearms in this state for 30 days.

(3) A third or subsequent violation that occurs within five years of two or more previous offenses is punishable by a civil fine of up to five thousand dollars ($5,000) and, if the violation is committed by a licensed firearms dealer, the firearms dealer shall be permanently ineligible to sell firearms in this state.

(b) The Attorney General, a district attorney, or a city attorney may bring a civil action for a violation of Section 23660 or 23665.
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23660.
(a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 23655, or that does not comply with the standards for firearm safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 23650.

(b) No person may distribute as part of an organized firearm safety program, with or without consideration, any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 23655, or that does not comply with the standards for firearm safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 23650.
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  #46  
Old 06-13-2021, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
The person I quoted effectively said "Why would I remove a non-compliant lock if the customer paid for it?"

So my ask was "If the customer paid for a hi-cap mag and were not exempt, would you not remove it?" -- similar logic to why a non-compliant lock would be removed even if it was "paid" for by the customer.

Got it now.


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  #47  
Old 06-13-2021, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by whatmeworry View Post
Not an apples to apples comparison.

Distribution of a non compliant lock is not a crime, you can buy non compliant locks at any Home Depot. But distribution of hi-cap mags, different story.

What handgun locks does Home Depot sell?


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  #48  
Old 06-13-2021, 1:40 PM
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If you receive a pistol with hi-cap magazines for transfer to a non-exempt person what do you do?
Good question, I have a box filled with them, I tape them together with blue painters tap and put the customers name on them. If the ban gets overturned they can come get them. I will also send them out of state to a friend or relative.
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  #49  
Old 06-13-2021, 2:14 PM
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Good question, I have a box filled with them, I tape them together with blue painters tap and put the customers name on them. If the ban gets overturned they can come get them. I will also send them out of state to a friend or relative.

If thatís the case do you have them logged into a book saying date of acquisition and from who? Because youíll get popped with a violation for that


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  #50  
Old 06-13-2021, 5:04 PM
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For us if a gun arrives with a high capacity magazine we have the client sign a release of the magazines back to us, we include this with the DROS paperwork so if we get audited it shows that the customer did not receive the magazines and covers our backside.
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  #51  
Old 06-13-2021, 6:30 PM
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If thatís the case do you have them logged into a book saying date of acquisition and from who? Because youíll get popped with a violation for that


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Yes I keep a log and I just added a row to my spreadsheet for "held in trust" pending the courts decision.
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  #52  
Old 06-13-2021, 8:14 PM
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Yes I keep a log and I just added a row to my spreadsheet for "held in trust" pending the courts decision.
What happens if DOJ doesnít like that and pulls your hicap permit? I guess youíll owe all those customers the monetary value of those mags. I would never do what youíre doing in this political climate. YMMV
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  #53  
Old 06-14-2021, 1:46 AM
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What handgun locks does Home Depot sell?


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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Boomstic...0026/306163774
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  #54  
Old 06-14-2021, 7:31 AM
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They arenít regulated by the CA DOJ though. If you brought that lock in to pick up your firearm, I couldnít accept your receipt. Your safe affidavit would also not work since you brought it in as proof of a device that isnít Cali compliant.
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  #55  
Old 06-14-2021, 9:34 AM
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They arenít regulated by the CA DOJ though. If you brought that lock in to pick up your firearm, I couldnít accept your receipt. Your safe affidavit would also not work since you brought it in as proof of a device that isnít Cali compliant.
I agree. But the discussion was about removing the supplied lock because it is not legal to provide it. If a compliant lock AND the non-compliant lock is provided, how is the non-compliant lock any different than the non-complaint lock from Home Depot.
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  #56  
Old 06-14-2021, 10:16 AM
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I agree. But the discussion was about removing the supplied lock because it is not legal to provide it. If a compliant lock AND the non-compliant lock is provided, how is the non-compliant lock any different than the non-complaint lock from Home Depot.
Because technically, you canít deliver any non compliant lock at time of delivery. In the states eyes, they donít want locks delivered that they have not tested and proved to be a reliable lock.

Do I agree with their idea? No. However, itís the State of California and they hold all the cards over CA gun dealers with the PC but just as important, their iron fisted REGULATIONS.
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  #57  
Old 06-14-2021, 10:43 AM
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I agree. But the discussion was about removing the supplied lock because it is not legal to provide it. If a compliant lock AND the non-compliant lock is provided, how is the non-compliant lock any different than the non-complaint lock from Home Depot.
Your next question might be, “how would anyone know?

So a guy buys a gun. Let’s say a CZ handgun because CZ doesn’t have compliant locks. Doesn’t want to buy a stupid lock, fills the affidavit ect.

Takes gun home puts the non compliant lock on it/near it his kid unlocks the gun and shoots himself or another person. An investigation will then begin. Owner says the lock came with the gun from XYZ gun dealer. They find a Non compliant lock on it. They come for a 4473 and perhaps DROS PAPERWORK.

Do you want to be subject in this investigation over a stupid lock? Even for one second? I care about my customers but I could careless about skipping out on compliance issues to make them feel better. For what it’s worth, we generally don’t make a profit off the locks or I include them and charge a buck so the receipt has a tangible purchase on it because it stays with the paperwork.

At the end of the day, it’s not worth skipping around CA compliance especially when it remotely involves a safety device. ( for lawsuit reasons)
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  #58  
Old 06-14-2021, 10:51 AM
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I think we agree that CA laws suck.

“Delivered at the time of delivery of the pistol” - Then deliver it 2 minutes later or earlier.

It’s not about “how will anyone know”. It’s about how can the State of California allow one business (Home Depot) to sell a non compliant lock, but not allow another business to sell the same item. No license is needed to sell a non compliant lock.

As a stupid example can the State of California allow Home Depot to sell bottled water, but restrict a liquor store (who holds a liquor license) from selling the same type of water.

In your example, if gun owner bought a compliant lock from you, and a non-compliant lock from Home Depot and decided to only use the non-compliant lock. Would Home Depot be investigated?
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  #59  
Old 06-14-2021, 11:16 AM
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I think we agree that CA laws suck.

ďDelivered at the time of delivery of the pistolĒ - Then deliver it 2 minutes later or earlier.

Itís not about ďhow will anyone knowĒ. Itís about how can the State of California allow one business (Home Depot) to sell a non compliant lock, but not allow another business to sell the same item. No license is needed to sell a non compliant lock.

As a stupid example can the State of California allow Home Depot to sell bottled water, but restrict a liquor store (who holds a liquor license) from selling the same type of water.

In your example, if gun owner bought a compliant lock from you, and a non-compliant lock from Home Depot and decided to only use the non-compliant lock. Would Home Depot be investigated?
Again, CA DOJ actually regulates CA FFLís. The law states ďdelivered with gunĒ Home Depot isnít an FFL so they arenít regulated by BOF and they arenít delivering guns. Therefore the law doesnít apply to them.

Thereís no CA law that says a non compliant lock canít be sold in CA. It says a CA FFL canít deliver a non compliant lock with a firearm.
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  #60  
Old 06-14-2021, 1:16 PM
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What happens if DOJ doesnít like that and pulls your hicap permit? I guess youíll owe all those customers the monetary value of those mags. I would never do what youíre doing in this political climate. YMMV

I see what you are saying, I guess my question is, what are you doing with them?

What is comes down to is I'm making every attempt to comply with the law and I can find no text in the laws that would make it a violation to identify the individual who the mags were NOT transferred to.

My though process is by identifying them I am proving that I did not release the magazines to an unqualified person. For instance if I'm inspected and a red label Glock has no mags in the box and there is no notation from the seller on a invoice indicating that the mags were omitted, I can then tie the mags in my collection box to a transaction.

I have no intention nor would I transfer them illegally to someone, I am identifying where they came from if circumstances change. I have had one guy who later moved out of state, I logged his name/new residence out of state and when they was disposed.

I think it's good for FFL's to have discussions about these subjects. Perhaps sharing info with each other will help us all do a better job of compiling with the current and future laws. We should all be on the same side and make every effort to make the industry look good.

I'm certainly open to constructive criticism as we should all be.
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  #61  
Old 06-14-2021, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by medicdubs96 View Post
I see what you are saying, I guess my question is, what are you doing with them?

What is comes down to is I'm making every attempt to comply with the law and I can find no text in the laws that would make it a violation to identify the individual who the mags were NOT transferred to.

My though process is by identifying them I am proving that I did not release the magazines to an unqualified person. For instance if I'm inspected and a red label Glock has no mags in the box and there is no notation from the seller on a invoice indicating that the mags were omitted, I can then tie the mags in my collection box to a transaction.

I have no intention nor would I transfer them illegally to someone, I am identifying where they came from if circumstances change. I have had one guy who later moved out of state, I logged his name/new residence out of state and when they was disposed.

I think it's good for FFL's to have discussions about these subjects. Perhaps sharing info with each other will help us all do a better job of compiling with the current and future laws. We should all be on the same side and make every effort to make the industry look good.

I'm certainly open to constructive criticism as we should all be.

So say in your instance you have a a red label that came with 17rnd mags how do you do the safe handling demonstration and delivery the gun if you donít a ca complaint mags?

I do like your way of logging them to new residence out of state as that is what we were recommended to do also as we were putting out of state or during the freedom week inputting freedom week no info.


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  #62  
Old 06-14-2021, 9:10 PM
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Again, CA DOJ actually regulates CA FFLís. The law states ďdelivered with gunĒ Home Depot isnít an FFL so they arenít regulated by BOF and they arenít delivering guns. Therefore the law doesnít apply to them.

Thereís no CA law that says a non compliant lock canít be sold in CA. It says a CA FFL canít deliver a non compliant lock with a firearm.


23660.
(a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 23655, or that does not comply with the standards for firearm safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 23650.


I re-read and stand corrected. No one can sell a firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster. So, if the lock that Home Depot is selling is not on the roster, they can be fined. The penalty for a FFL is a fine plus a prohibition on selling guns for a period of time.
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  #63  
Old 06-15-2021, 6:33 AM
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23660.
(a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 23655, or that does not comply with the standards for firearm safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 23650.


I re-read and stand corrected. No one can sell a firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster. So, if the lock that Home Depot is selling is not on the roster, they can be fined. The penalty for a FFL is a fine plus a prohibition on selling guns for a period of time.

My question is this. Although you did find a listing online Home Depot have you ever actually tried to purchase and have shipped to California or actually seen one in a ca Home Depot? They might cancel your order before shipping just food for thought.


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Old 06-15-2021, 9:27 AM
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My question is this. Although you did find a listing online Home Depot have you ever actually tried to purchase and have shipped to California or actually seen one in a ca Home Depot? They might cancel your order before shipping just food for thought.


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It will allow me to order but Iím not going to be bothered to spend the 12 bucks on this experiment. My position still stands, CA gun regs generally suck.
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Old 06-15-2021, 9:27 AM
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I guess it's only a civil violation (Section 23660 is the relevant section about removing those non-CA locks):
I haven't look that deep into this issue, but how does the federal CSLA (2005 Child Safety Lock Act) not preempt California state law.

As you mentioned, it's not possible to follow both the federal law and state law as CA law makes it illegal to pass on "non compliant" locks that are absolutely compliant under federal law. Any time this happens, federal law prevails due to federal preemption and the supremacy clause.
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Old 06-15-2021, 1:20 PM
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So say in your instance you have a a red label that came with 17rnd mags how do you do the safe handling demonstration and delivery the gun if you donít a ca complaint mags?

I do like your way of logging them to new residence out of state as that is what we were recommended to do also as we were putting out of state or during the freedom week inputting freedom week no info.


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I have spare Mag's for most Glocks. That seems to be the most frequent offender for the Hi-Cap issue. I can't remember when/where I read it, but I recall someone using the Hi-Cap mag for the demo and then obviously NOT trasfering them with the weapon. I have had a few PPT's where the gun was off roster and the buyer had already bought 10 round mags. If the ag's are on order I do the demo at the time of pick up.
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Old 06-15-2021, 3:31 PM
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I have spare Mag's for most Glocks. That seems to be the most frequent offender for the Hi-Cap issue. I can't remember when/where I read it, but I recall someone using the Hi-Cap mag for the demo and then obviously NOT trasfering them with the weapon. I have had a few PPT's where the gun was off roster and the buyer had already bought 10 round mags. If the ag's are on order I do the demo at the time of pick up.
You can block those mags to 10 rounds too.
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  #68  
Old 06-15-2021, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by XxWoodsHunterxX View Post
So say in your instance you have a a red label that came with 17rnd mags how do you do the safe handling demonstration and delivery the gun if you donít a ca complaint mags?
I'm sure I'm missing something. Why do you need a CA compliant mag to do the safe handing demo? Its never happened to me but I assumed if it ever did I could do the safe handling with the hi cap but not include it with the gun.

What am I missing?
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Old 06-15-2021, 5:36 PM
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I'm sure I'm missing something. Why do you need a CA compliant mag to do the safe handing demo? Its never happened to me but I assumed if it ever did I could do the safe handling with the hi cap but not include it with the gun.

What am I missing?
That you handed a high cap Mag to someone who shouldnít have one in their hand from a dealer ?
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:02 AM
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That you handed a high cap Mag to someone who shouldnít have one in their hand from a dealer ?
That seems a bit of a stretch IMO.

Under Penal Code 32310(a), it is a crime if any person:

manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, buys, or receives any large-capacity magazineÖ

I suppose what you describe could be considered a "loan", but if I hand you a $100 bill and after you've looked at it for a few minutes you hand it back to me I don't think I loaned you $100. Likewise I didn't give it to you, although admittedly with the multiple meanings our fine English language attaches to some words I suppose that could be considered "giving" to you. You just gave it back. But in my mind, for me to give you $100 I'm going to say, "Here, this is yours". If I want it back I'd say, "Here, take a look at this."

It seems like the intent of that law is they don't leave your premises with the High Cap. It doesn't seem to me that "handling" a high cap violates the intent. Have you, or anyone else had DOJ tell you a customer can't touch a High cap?

I'm not meaning to be argumentative, I honestly want to know if I can do a safe handling demo with a high cap.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nardo1895 View Post
That seems a bit of a stretch IMO.

Under Penal Code 32310(a), it is a crime if any person:

manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, buys, or receives any large-capacity magazineÖ

I suppose what you describe could be considered a "loan", but if I hand you a $100 bill and after you've looked at it for a few minutes you hand it back to me I don't think I loaned you $100. Likewise I didn't give it to you, although admittedly with the multiple meanings our fine English language attaches to some words I suppose that could be considered "giving" to you. You just gave it back. But in my mind, for me to give you $100 I'm going to say, "Here, this is yours". If I want it back I'd say, "Here, take a look at this."

It seems like the intent of that law is they don't leave your premises with the High Cap. It doesn't seem to me that "handling" a high cap violates the intent. Have you, or anyone else had DOJ tell you a customer can't touch a High cap?

I'm not meaning to be argumentative, I honestly want to know if I can do a safe handling demo with a high cap.
By handing it to them, didn't you just LEND it to them to use for a specific purpose?
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:40 AM
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By handing it to them, didn't you just LEND it to them to use for a specific purpose?
Maybe, but it never left my control.

I do get your point though which is why I asked if a DOJ Field Rep has told anyone you can't do it. Seems like they would need to get pretty far into the weeds to even ask the question.

Sort of related issue/scenario

Customer buys an odd caliber firearm that I don't have a snap cap or dummy round for. I require them to bring me a dummy round for the safe handling demo. They keep the dummy round after the demo. I have no proof I was able to properly do the safe handling demo as I don't have a dummy round of that caliber in my possession. A problem? My opinion is its not. Seems like its incumbent on DOJ to prove I didn't do it right as long as I have the proper forms filled out and signed.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:43 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Maybe, but it never left my control.

I do get your point though which is why I asked if a DOJ Field Rep has told anyone you can't do it. Seems like they would need to get pretty far into the weeds to even ask the question.

Sort of related issue/scenario

Customer buys an odd caliber firearm that I don't have a snap cap or dummy round for. I require them to bring me a dummy round for the safe handling demo. They keep the dummy round after the demo. I have no proof I was able to properly do the safe handling demo as I don't have a dummy round of that caliber in my possession. A problem? My opinion is its not. Seems like its incumbent on DOJ to prove I didn't do it right as long as I have the proper forms filled out and signed.
We are not talking about dummy rounds. We are talking about giving a hi cap to someone who is not supposed to get one. I know this is all little stuff but technically, it could be considered that you lent them the mag to perform the safety dem. Lending them that could be in violation of the law. Its DOJ, they can interpret that anyway they want.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:32 PM
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We are not talking about dummy rounds. We are talking about giving a hi cap to someone who is not supposed to get one. I know this is all little stuff but technically, it could be considered that you lent them the mag to perform the safety dem. Lending them that could be in violation of the law. Its DOJ, they can interpret that anyway they want.
I didn't mean to equate them. Just another Safe Handling issue that isn't totally clear in my mind.
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Old 06-16-2021, 12:35 PM
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I didn't mean to equate them. Just another Safe Handling issue that isn't totally clear in my mind.
Understood but you are dealing with two separate PC violations.
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Old 06-16-2021, 2:08 PM
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I guess in all reality you would be "giving, lending" for the purpose of....
But, you're still "giving, lending"...
I wonder how that would be argued in a court.
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Old 06-16-2021, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
By handing it to them, didn't you just LEND it to them to use for a specific purpose?
Interesting... for AW laws since similar language is used:
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A violation of California Penal Code section 30600 is a felony. Manufacturing, distributing, transporting, selling, giving away, or lending assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles is punishable by four, six, or eight years in county jail.
How do movie houses or even someone like Taran Tactical allow others to use their AWs? Is there perhaps an exemption that I don't recall reading? I believe I've seen in some of Taran's youtube videos full auto stuff on his property being used by actors/people he's training.
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Old 06-16-2021, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
I guess in all reality you would be "giving, lending" for the purpose of....
But, you're still "giving, lending"...
I wonder how that would be argued in a court.
I still think that is a stretch. If I give or lend you something that implies you can leave with it. If I give it, you keep it forever. If I lend it, you bring it back.

What about when you hand a potential customer a gun off your rack? Are you giving or lending them that gun? Of course not. You are handing it to them with both parties understanding they are going to hand it back to you.

If they wanted the law to be interpreted that way they should have added "or allow anyone to touch" to the prohibitions.

I understand that how I interpret a law matters little. And no one wants to be in a position for a court to decide what it means. Its too expensive to try and stand on principal. I'll ask my DOJ rep next time I see her.
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Old 06-16-2021, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nardo1895 View Post
I still think that is a stretch. If I give or lend you something that implies you can leave with it. If I give it, you keep it forever. If I lend it, you bring it back.

What about when you hand a potential customer a gun off your rack? Are you giving or lending them that gun? Of course not. You are handing it to them with both parties understanding they are going to hand it back to you.

If they wanted the law to be interpreted that way they should have added "or allow anyone to touch" to the prohibitions.

I understand that how I interpret a law matters little. And no one wants to be in a position for a court to decide what it means. Its too expensive to try and stand on principal. I'll ask my DOJ rep next time I see her.
You are handing them a gun that would not be illegal for them to purchase though. You already know that lending them a hi cap is not legal. We won't even let people fondle off roster guns for two reasons, they can't buy it and its a waste of time to show them guns that they can't legally purchase from us.
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Old 06-17-2021, 3:40 PM
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How did the inspection go OP?
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