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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #801  
Old 03-04-2019, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtman View Post
More specifically about the Paraclete IV stand alone its alumina/aramid. I wanted to make sure that's not a UHMWPE proxy. It doesn't say anything about ceramic. Thanks for the help
Alumina is a type of ceramic, of which there are multiple types. The aramid is the kevlar backing which catches the fragments and holds the plate together. You are correct, no UHMWPE in that plate.
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  #802  
Old 03-05-2019, 7:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DeliveryBoy View Post
Alumina is a type of ceramic, of which there are multiple types. The aramid is the kevlar backing which catches the fragments and holds the plate together. You are correct, no UHMWPE in that plate.
DB is precisely correct.

Alumina, Al2O3, also known as artificial sapphire. Probably the best all-around hardface material for rifle plates (a confluence of affordability, areal density, and effectiveness).

Most all rifle plates that utilize ceramic are a binary construction, with primary threat arrest utilizing monolithic or mosaic tile exotic technical ceramics. The substrate material upon which the plate derives its shape is usually one of three materials:

UHMWPE in a thermoset resin (this iteration of UHMWPE seems to tolerate thermal cycling better than the soft iteration, my theory is the resin acts as a heat sink).

Aramid fiber in a thermoset resin (a very effective and more economical material)

S-Glass fiber in a thermoset resin (the cheap seats- I don't recommend for use in personnel armor due to the risk of glass fibers being introduced into the body cavity, since exploratory surgery is no fun).

The rifle-capable plates I have developed, designed, and tested over the past 14 years use aramid backing exclusively, both due to performance and from an environmental ruggedness perspective.
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  #803  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:55 AM
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The Recommended Armor/Gear Database has been updated:

https://drmorgear.wordpress.com/reco...rmor-database/
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  #804  
Old 03-21-2019, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Two things:

First, AR500 is pretty much obsolete at this point. If you are going steel, Armox Advance (or "AR650/AR1000") is the current standard. It can be made thinner/lighter than AR500 and stop M193 at 3000 fps.

Second, the weight difference between steel and ceramic plates is usually only about a pound or so. If you have the scratch to buy extra ceramic plates, then yes, ceramic makes more sense for you.

If you need lightweight plates, pure UHMWPE are the way to go. Steel and ceramic are basically the same.

Can you elaborate a bit on this?

I was quite surprised to read this comment as AR500 seems to be the standard / default armor plate.

What has supplanted AR500? AR650 / AR1000?
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  #805  
Old 03-21-2019, 9:53 AM
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Certainly. A truncated timeline is below:

Early 2000's: AR-500 (Abrasion Resistant, 500 BHN) steel, a trade name owned by SSAB of Sweden, starts to see use in personal body armor, as it is relatively inexpensive, thin, and durable, and will stop many common rifle threats.

2007: Myself and Doctor Gary Roberts ("DocGKR") independently, inadvertently, and nearly simultaneously discover that AR500, in thicknesses commonly utilized for rifle plates, is susceptible to shear plug failure when impacted by hypervelocity rifle ammunition (specifically, M193 ball @ 3000 fps or higher). To be fair, AR500 was never intended for use as personal armor (it is designed to resist highly abrasive environments, where its high toughness and relatively high hardness are optimized). And much of what was called "AR500" was not sourced from SSAB.

2007-2014: Testing, evaluation, and further research leads myself and a couple others ("Doc" at the sadly now-defunct Maingun Surplus) to develop and bring to market a new generation of rifle plates utilizing "HHS" (High Hardness Steel*), with Brinell Hardness readings between 700 and 1100 (very high numbers). Specifically, Armox, and Armox Advance (trade names for extremely high quality armor steels manufactured by the Swedish company SSAB). These steels were required in order to stop M193 @ 3100+ fps.

2014: The first commercially available HHS/Armox Advance rifle plate is released by Maingun, the Patriot 2. It became the first on the market to reliably stop M193 @ 3100 FPS, and was also thinner than comparable legacy AR500 plates.

2015: Maingun releases the first curved HHS plate. Several other manufacturers start releasing HHS plates.

2016: A couple of manufacturers, in their haste to get HHS plates to market, compromise the material, or possibly utilize substandard material (at this time, SSAB is the BEST HHS in the world).

2017: Maingun goes out of business, but will always have the distinction of being the vanguard of new steel rifle plate tech. Doc deserves all of our thanks.

2019: Several manufacturers offer HHS plates (distinguished by a "level III+" notation). From my T&E, Chase Tactical AR1000** is the top of the heap currently.

Disclosure: I am not affiliated with any of the above mentioned companies.

*Interestingly, HHS is very similar in microstructure to ceramic, and exhibits failure modes more closely resembling ceramic than steel (brittle fracture rather than ductile/shear failure).

**It should be noted that the term "AR1000" is not accurate, as the AR series of steels does not go above AR600.

So at this time, AR500 steel should be relegated to testing and target use, and NOT for lifesaving purposes. Spend the bit of extra cash and get good HHS plates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrjonesUSA View Post
Can you elaborate a bit on this?

I was quite surprised to read this comment as AR500 seems to be the standard / default armor plate.

What has supplanted AR500? AR650 / AR1000?
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  #806  
Old 03-25-2019, 4:27 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Certainly. A truncated timeline is below:

Early 2000's: AR-500 (Abrasion Resistant, 500 BHN) steel, a trade name owned by SSAB of Sweden, starts to see use in personal body armor, as it is relatively inexpensive, thin, and durable, and will stop many common rifle threats.

2007: Myself and Doctor Gary Roberts ("DocGKR") independently, inadvertently, and nearly simultaneously discover that AR500, in thicknesses commonly utilized for rifle plates, is susceptible to shear plug failure when impacted by hypervelocity rifle ammunition (specifically, M193 ball @ 3000 fps or higher). To be fair, AR500 was never intended for use as personal armor (it is designed to resist highly abrasive environments, where its high toughness and relatively high hardness are optimized). And much of what was called "AR500" was not sourced from SSAB.

2007-2014: Testing, evaluation, and further research leads myself and a couple others ("Doc" at the sadly now-defunct Maingun Surplus) to develop and bring to market a new generation of rifle plates utilizing "HHS" (High Hardness Steel*), with Brinell Hardness readings between 700 and 1100 (very high numbers). Specifically, Armox, and Armox Advance (trade names for extremely high quality armor steels manufactured by the Swedish company SSAB). These steels were required in order to stop M193 @ 3100+ fps.

2014: The first commercially available HHS/Armox Advance rifle plate is released by Maingun, the Patriot 2. It became the first on the market to reliably stop M193 @ 3100 FPS, and was also thinner than comparable legacy AR500 plates.

2015: Maingun releases the first curved HHS plate. Several other manufacturers start releasing HHS plates.

2016: A couple of manufacturers, in their haste to get HHS plates to market, compromise the material, or possibly utilize substandard material (at this time, SSAB is the BEST HHS in the world).

2017: Maingun goes out of business, but will always have the distinction of being the vanguard of new steel rifle plate tech. Doc deserves all of our thanks.

2019: Several manufacturers offer HHS plates (distinguished by a "level III+" notation). From my T&E, Chase Tactical AR1000** is the top of the heap currently.

Disclosure: I am not affiliated with any of the above mentioned companies.

*Interestingly, HHS is very similar in microstructure to ceramic, and exhibits failure modes more closely resembling ceramic than steel (brittle fracture rather than ductile/shear failure).

**It should be noted that the term "AR1000" is not accurate, as the AR series of steels does not go above AR600.

So at this time, AR500 steel should be relegated to testing and target use, and NOT for lifesaving purposes. Spend the bit of extra cash and get good HHS plates.


Wow that is amazing, thank you so much for the detailed reply!

So, in layman's terms, what should I be looking for?

AR600?

Is anything marketed as "AR650 / AR1000" just a marketing scam & should be avoided?

I'll take another look at your site but do you have several different manufacturers that you recommend for HHS plates?

Lastly, what's your take on Steel (HHS since that's the newest & greatest) vs. Ceramic?

While I understand that Ceramic is technically rated for higher level threats like .30-06 AP; I'm concerned about how many rounds it can take before failure & before it must be replaced.

i.e.; in a SHTF type scenario where resupply / replacing plates is not possible; if a ceramic plate takes a round, it theoretically could shatter the whole plate or otherwise should not continue to be relied on for lifesaving, correct?

Vs. Steel where I imagine under ideal scenarios it should be replaced after taking even one round, but it could still be viable for more round impacts than ceramic, right?

Hope that makes sense....


EDIT: To be more clear, I guess what you could say is I'm most interested in stopping the highest number of rounds, vs. stopping one or two .30-06 AP rounds.

I'd rather my armor be able to defeat ten 5.56 rounds, rather than one .30-06, which isn't really in common use these days, even by snipers; they all use .308, .338, .300WM, or even .50. And let's be real; if you're trying to guard against snipers, well....



EDIT 2:
OK I found my answer!!! Lord GOD has it been impossible to find this so plainly and clearly stated!!!!!

Quote:
Steel rifle plates have several advantages, especially for certain applications (PSD, concealed). they are the thinnest profile of all rifle plate styles, are generally very inexpensive, do not suffer from fragility issues inherent with ceramic plates, and handle multiple hits extremely well (some plates have been documented with hundreds of rounds while still retaining their protective qualities).



Thanks again!

Last edited by DrjonesUSA; 03-25-2019 at 4:44 AM..
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  #807  
Old 03-25-2019, 7:48 AM
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Doctor Jones,

Correct. Steel plates are at the top of the heap when it comes to durability, and multiple hits. Back in 2006, there was a very good detailed thread (now long gone into the murky depths of the Lost Web) on 10-8 Forums showing a DBT MARS steel plate that had withstood over a hundred rounds of Green Tip without failure.

For someone looking at potential "long term" armor (whichever scenario you prefer), steel just makes sense. Is ceramic still "better" in terms of how high a threat it can be engineered to stop? Absolutely. But once ceramic takes a hit, it has a limited continued usefulness. Steel plates can continue to be used, until they crack, are penetrated, or simply erode.

I'm glad you found the information you sought! There's quite a bit here, and more on the site.
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  #808  
Old 03-25-2019, 9:24 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Doctor Jones,

Correct. Steel plates are at the top of the heap when it comes to durability, and multiple hits. Back in 2006, there was a very good detailed thread (now long gone into the murky depths of the Lost Web) on 10-8 Forums showing a DBT MARS steel plate that had withstood over a hundred rounds of Green Tip without failure.

For someone looking at potential "long term" armor (whichever scenario you prefer), steel just makes sense. Is ceramic still "better" in terms of how high a threat it can be engineered to stop? Absolutely. But once ceramic takes a hit, it has a limited continued usefulness. Steel plates can continue to be used, until they crack, are penetrated, or simply erode.

I'm glad you found the information you sought! There's quite a bit here, and more on the site.

Cool.... Thanks again for confirming my question.

And yes; I recently happened across a youtube video where a guy did a rough & dirty comparison test; shot up a ceramic plate and showed how it disintegrated to the point of total uselessness after about 6-10 rounds (realistically it wasn't stopping any rounds after 5-6, and it was basically dust at about 10 rounds) vs. an AR500 plate that absorbed somewhere around 90+ rounds before even one penetrated.

Cool... glad to know I'm on the right track & Thanks for your detailed info!

Also; your spall guards on your site look pretty nifty. You really 90-120 days out?
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  #809  
Old 04-29-2019, 5:36 PM
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After 14 years of diligent R&D, I will be releasing the best rifle plates available. Stay tuned.
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  #810  
Old 05-02-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
After 14 years of diligent R&D, I will be releasing the best rifle plates available. Stay tuned.
I'm curious if these will be steel or ceramic/aramid plates.
I'm in the market for a set and was contemplating Midwest Armor FM4 plates, but have been waiting to see if anything new becomes available.
Looking forward to seeing what you release.

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  #811  
Old 05-02-2019, 11:58 AM
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Anyone know of a retailer in (2019) the LA area for DKX armor?
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  #812  
Old 05-05-2019, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BobaChris View Post
I'm curious if these will be steel or ceramic/aramid plates.
I'm in the market for a set and was contemplating Midwest Armor FM4 plates, but have been waiting to see if anything new becomes available.
Looking forward to seeing what you release.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Well, as a sneak preview, I can tell you that they will be ceramic/aramid, available in both 3+ and 4+ multi hit equivalents (with a rating system that is more logical and intuitive than the outdated NIJ), in both standalone and ICW, and have the best traits of all three classes of rifle plates (steel, ceramic, UHMWPE), with none of the drawbacks.

They should shake things up a bit, to say the least.
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  #813  
Old 05-05-2019, 9:28 AM
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Dr will the plates have a shelf life??
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  #814  
Old 05-05-2019, 9:36 AM
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Dr will the plates have a shelf life??
Should be around 20-30 years. As I said, these will check all the boxes. Stay tuned on my site and my instagram channel, @drmorgear, to stay on top of the release.
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  #815  
Old 05-06-2019, 8:00 PM
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Anyone know of a retailer in (2019) the LA area for DKX armor?
Isn't DKX just rebranded TenCate plates?
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  #816  
Old 05-07-2019, 3:01 PM
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Isn't DKX just rebranded TenCate plates?
That is new information to me. The brand is no longer sold on its own, now under the parent, Phalanx Systems. Thanks for the info, I will query them about this.
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  #817  
Old 05-17-2019, 7:39 PM
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Look at the CPL list and compare their model numbers
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  #818  
Old 06-05-2019, 5:56 PM
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ShotStop Duritium III+ GT
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  #819  
Old 06-07-2019, 4:26 PM
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TYR Protection Steel plate from Sweden:

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  #820  
Old 06-25-2019, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
No, not true.

'Body armor' is defined at PC 16288 No distinction is made for plates vs fabric.

Felons may not own or possess body armor There's also a sentencing enhancement for committing a violent crime while wearing a 'body vest', PC 12022.2
That's it - no other restriction in California law regarding ownership, possession or use of body armor.
Given all the changes in California gun laws recently, I was wondering if this post is still true today.

d-r: Thanks for all the info.
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  #821  
Old 06-25-2019, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
Given all the changes in California gun laws recently, I was wondering if this post is still true today.

d-r: Thanks for all the info.
Yes
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  #822  
Old 06-26-2019, 11:12 AM
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In another thread, someone mentioned Sportsman's Guide was selling surplus British police ballistic vests. The description says Kevlar panels and "Not for safety use," but it was on sale and I had a coupon so I bought one. It didn't have a NIJ rating listed, but it's from England. Date of manu-2/2002.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...used?a=2184624

d-r posted if the panel isn't woven Kevlar, stay away. The vest arrived today and I pulled out one of the panels. I made a tiny incision to look inside. Fabric with a weave. No laminate. d-r said woven Kevlar in good condition should last 25-30 years.

Unfortunately it is only rated for 9mm and .357 magnum but it's better than nothing. The back panel is about 16 X20 in the shape of a torso. The front has two panels that overlap in the middle. I was wondering how that would work with a zipper.

My plan was to test one of the panels and use the large one for a backpack insert. I realize at best it is Level II protection, but it's "better than nothing." I teach at a public school in L.A. county and people would not understand if I show up to work wearing Level IV body armor.
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  #823  
Old 06-27-2019, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
In another thread, someone mentioned Sportsman's Guide was selling surplus British police ballistic vests. The description says Kevlar panels and "Not for safety use," but it was on sale and I had a coupon so I bought one. It didn't have a NIJ rating listed, but it's from England. Date of manu-2/2002.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...used?a=2184624

d-r posted if the panel isn't woven Kevlar, stay away. The vest arrived today and I pulled out one of the panels. I made a tiny incision to look inside. Fabric with a weave. No laminate. d-r said woven Kevlar in good condition should last 25-30 years.

Unfortunately it is only rated for 9mm and .357 magnum but it's better than nothing. The back panel is about 16 X20 in the shape of a torso. The front has two panels that overlap in the middle. I was wondering how that would work with a zipper.

My plan was to test one of the panels and use the large one for a backpack insert. I realize at best it is Level II protection, but it's "better than nothing." I teach at a public school in L.A. county and people would not understand if I show up to work wearing Level IV body armor.
Nice find. Those panels should be good to go, as long as they are clean and were taken care of. Yes, woven and wovenate aramid is good for far longer than most people realize. I'm also currently developing some extremely advanced treatments that will extend the lifespan of aramids past 100 years.

As far as "split down the center" vests go, I am not a fan. An overlapped seam is ok on the sides of a vest (which is statistically speaking, much less likely to see an impact), but down the center of the body is just asking for trouble. If it's your only option, then it's certainly better than going unarmored, but still...

As far as zippers, you need to make sure they are polymer, not metal. Metal zippers can act as secondary projectiles when hit by bullets. YKK makes large-tooth, high strength zippers that would be acceptable for this purpose.
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  #824  
Old 06-27-2019, 9:13 AM
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d-r: I bought the vest for the Kevlar panels. My original plan was to use the panels in a backpack or laptop case. I don't think I'll actually be wearing the vest. When I saw the zippered front, I didn't think it was a very good design but figured there would be 3 panels I could use.

The vest and the panel coverings look to be in very good condition. No tears or stains. I only checked the Kevlar in one panel, but it looked like your description of woven Kevlar. It has a yellowish tinge and you can definitely see the weave.

I was hoping for a higher level of threat protection, but it should be able to stop most pistol rounds.

Thanks for starting this thread. Lots of good info here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Nice find. Those panels should be good to go, as long as they are clean and were taken care of. Yes, woven and wovenate aramid is good for far longer than most people realize. I'm also currently developing some extremely advanced treatments that will extend the lifespan of aramids past 100 years.

As far as "split down the center" vests go, I am not a fan. An overlapped seam is ok on the sides of a vest (which is statistically speaking, much less likely to see an impact), but down the center of the body is just asking for trouble. If it's your only option, then it's certainly better than going unarmored, but still...

As far as zippers, you need to make sure they are polymer, not metal. Metal zippers can act as secondary projectiles when hit by bullets. YKK makes large-tooth, high strength zippers that would be acceptable for this purpose.
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  #825  
Old 07-02-2019, 6:48 AM
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As far as zippers, you need to make sure they are polymer, not metal. Metal zippers can act as secondary projectiles when hit by bullets. YKK makes large-tooth, high strength zippers that would be acceptable for this purpose.
The zippers are polymer not metal. I'm not using the vest anyway. The three panels are going in two backpacks and a laptop case. I may test the smallest panel, but I don't think I have to.

I did more research on the company, Aegis Engineering LTD in the UK. In 2017 it was purchased by Safariland and currently operates at Safariland UK. I remember your post about the Zylon Safariland products, but these panels are definitely woven Kevlar and not labeled Safariland.
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Old 07-02-2019, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
The zippers are polymer not metal. I'm not using the vest anyway. The three panels are going in two backpacks and a laptop case. I may test the smallest panel, but I don't think I have to.

I did more research on the company, Aegis Engineering LTD in the UK. In 2017 it was purchased by Safariland and currently operates at Safariland UK. I remember your post about the Zylon Safariland products, but these panels are definitely woven Kevlar and not labeled Safariland.
Indeed, these were decent vests. You did well in purchasing one. Definitely post up pictures of your project.
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Last edited by d-r; 07-02-2019 at 9:50 AM..
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Old 08-01-2019, 9:08 AM
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Messing around with odd stuff:






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  #828  
Old 08-01-2019, 3:16 PM
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Anyone "in the know" could confirm what the variances or change from Hesco 4400 to 4401? I think the 4401 was released in June, but there's not much data on them.
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Old 08-10-2019, 7:22 AM
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Back to school! Panels for backpacks. These guys test 6 NIJ IIIa panels. They say "certified" but not verified. At least these guys recognized the panel may stop bullet penetration but there will be significant impact trauma. The clay shows dynamic effect. If that was a kid....



Testing Leatherback ballistic backpacks.




Testing Ebay "body armor." This one is scary. Plate disintegrates when shot by a Ruger 10/22.

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Old 08-11-2019, 11:33 AM
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Three things:

First, *Never* buy body armor from Ebay. Not ever. As you can see, it is often fake crap. There is no accountability. Only companies that are either insured or indemnified (and can provide you proof of same) should get your business.

Secondly, NIJ Certified *is* verified, either through an NIJ lab, or "Bench Tested" by the company that makes or sells. Bench testing is perfectly legitimate, and often will result in a better piece of armor, as it allows for real-time testing/modification feedback loop. All of D-Rmor Gear's armor is bench tested to exceed NIJ requirements (particularly in terms of durability and temperature requirements).

Thirdly, backface deformation is, in my humble opinion, massively over-hyped. There has not been a single verified death that I have been able to find in over 40 years of body armor use from backface-deformation induced trauma. A bullet that is stopped by soft armor will have the same kinetic energy as a hard punch to a moderate blow from a baseball bat. Will it hurt? Absolutely. Will it possibly/probably break bones or cause severe bruising? Yes indeed. But compared to what a bullet will do if it penetrates, these are minor injuries. A kid that has backpack armor will be much better off than one without.

Thanks for the post of the tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brassburnz View Post
Back to school! Panels for backpacks. These guys test 6 NIJ IIIa panels. They say "certified" but not verified. At least these guys recognized the panel may stop bullet penetration but there will be significant impact trauma. The clay shows dynamic effect. If that was a kid....



Testing Leatherback ballistic backpacks.




Testing Ebay "body armor." This one is scary. Plate disintegrates when shot by a Ruger 10/22.

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Old 08-11-2019, 5:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Doctor Jones,

Correct. Steel plates are at the top of the heap when it comes to durability, and multiple hits. Back in 2006, there was a very good detailed thread (now long gone into the murky depths of the Lost Web) on 10-8 Forums showing a DBT MARS steel plate that had withstood over a hundred rounds of Green Tip without failure.

For someone looking at potential "long term" armor (whichever scenario you prefer), steel just makes sense. Is ceramic still "better" in terms of how high a threat it can be engineered to stop? Absolutely. But once ceramic takes a hit, it has a limited continued usefulness. Steel plates can continue to be used, until they crack, are penetrated, or simply erode.

I'm glad you found the information you sought! There's quite a bit here, and more on the site.

So what steel body armor companies and or plates would you recommend for long term use and quality?Looking for a plate with long term shelf life and the 3+ rating. Looking to spend around $200 per plate(kind of on a budget). Iím sure there are better companies than AR500 and spartan armor which I see pushed a lot. I am open to ceramic plates like Hesco one I saw recommended, but am worried about there shelf life and durability.
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Old 08-12-2019, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilvern7 View Post
a plate with long term shelf life and the 3+ rating.
What happens to steel on the shelf besides rust? What could happen to good spec plates that are Line-x coated?
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Old 08-13-2019, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilvern7 View Post
So what steel body armor companies and or plates would you recommend for long term use and quality?Looking for a plate with long term shelf life and the 3+ rating. Looking to spend around $200 per plate(kind of on a budget). Iím sure there are better companies than AR500 and spartan armor which I see pushed a lot. I am open to ceramic plates like Hesco one I saw recommended, but am worried about there shelf life and durability.
Sitting on a shelf in a semi stable temperature, UHMWPE/Ceramic armor would have an indefinite shelf life. The Warranty is only there because it's a PPE device, and heaven forbid something were to happen happen, manufacturers are CYA. Also could be a means of getting departments to spend $$$$. I'd agree that flexible soft armor probably has a shelf life if worn frequently, but if you aren't subjected rigid armor to extreme COLD OR HEAT, cycling that many times a day, dropping the plates, etc, they'll never "go bad" from sitting.
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Old 08-14-2019, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilvern7 View Post
So what steel body armor companies and or plates would you recommend for long term use and quality?Looking for a plate with long term shelf life and the 3+ rating. Looking to spend around $200 per plate(kind of on a budget). Iím sure there are better companies than AR500 and spartan armor which I see pushed a lot. I am open to ceramic plates like Hesco one I saw recommended, but am worried about there shelf life and durability.

I'm far from an expert but can share what I've learned:

- What do you perceive as being wrong with AR500 or Spartan? I believe they are both good companies that produce a fine product.

- When you say "shelf life" what exactly do you mean? Are you going to buy some armor & literally tuck it in a closet or basement & leave it? Ceramic is definitely a bit more perishable & fragile than Steel.... if you are very concerned about it, steel will probably be best, lowest maintenance, don't worry about it, etc.

- What do you mean "long term use and durability"? Do you mean plates that have the ability to stop multiple rounds, or stuff that you can wear & lug around for years?

Again; I'd steer you towards steel. I know all the cool kids think ceramic is king, but again; ceramic is literally that; ceramic, and steel is, well...steel.

Ceramic has warnings on it like not to leave it permanently packed in a hot trunk nor should you drop it or rough handle it as it can crack or otherwise become damaged.

I started out with my eye on ceramic but steel is what I ended up with.
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  #835  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:46 PM
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I apologize if anyone has brought up these plates before but a coworkers just showed me a Mrgunsandgear video reviewing them. Has anyone seen/heard of the Botach in house (I think) plates? Theyíre pretty cheap and reasonably light.

They seem too good to be true: https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-...-lbs-80-thick/
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  #836  
Old 08-19-2019, 1:15 PM
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  #837  
Old 08-19-2019, 1:26 PM
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Yeah thatís the video. I was wondering if anyone knew more about them or if any of the resident armor experts had any thoughts on them. Theyíre apparently assembled in the US from foreign materials...so Iím not too sure on the quality of them. Obviously the price point is great but I donít know if thatís worth it
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  #838  
Old 08-19-2019, 1:54 PM
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I was going to post that and the new one about his 101 on body armor.
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  #839  
Old 08-20-2019, 7:39 PM
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I am working on getting getting samples from Botach to provide better clarity on those plates performance. I can't assert their "where made claims" when they look like every other Chinese Armor plate made.
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  #840  
Old 08-20-2019, 9:24 PM
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Anyone have any experience with compass armor?
They sell on ebay, and have the thinnest concealable armor I can find.
It's made in China, but has an NIJ rating
Doesn't seem fake as the NIJ lists the company
www.justnet.org/app/tims/CPLReport.aspx
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