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  #1  
Old 11-02-2020, 3:38 PM
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Default M1919A4 - still ok to DROS

We can still DROS these as long guns, correct? Or is/was that the incorrect way to DROS them?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2020, 4:03 PM
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IRRC- Longgun DROS- 4473 OTHER.
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2020, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
IRRC- Longgun DROS- 4473 OTHER.
Thanks. I wasn't sure if I missed something that changed this. I think that's how we ran our last one a few years ago.
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2020, 4:57 PM
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No. Must be in A6 configuration with stock (no flash hider) to avoid AW status created by CA AB-88. I had a conversation with Jason Davis a few weeks ago about this specific subject.
.
.
.
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2020, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
No. Must be in A6 configuration with stock (no flash hider) to avoid AW status created by CA AB-88. I had a conversation with Jason Davis a few weeks ago about this specific subject.
.
.
.
Damn that must be what I thought I was missing..
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2020, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
No. Must be in A6 configuration with stock (no flash hider) to avoid AW status created by CA AB-88. I had a conversation with Jason Davis a few weeks ago about this specific subject.
.
.
.
I had the same conversation with Jason on the 23rd and we came to the conclusion we could dros in the a4 configuration.
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2020, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
No. Must be in A6 configuration with stock (no flash hider) to avoid AW status created by CA AB-88. I had a conversation with Jason Davis a few weeks ago about this specific subject.
.
.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sass2924 View Post
I had the same conversation with Jason on the 23rd and we came to the conclusion we could dros in the a4 configuration.
I would love to know more about the discussions. Several of us 1919 owners are in the breeze waiting for some guidance. My argument is there is no feature on a 1919A4 or A6 that would require AW reg. Trigger hand grip is not a pistol grip, as in there is no way you could hold a 1919 by that grip like a pistol with one hand nor was that ever the design or intent.

And the 'shroud' is not a shroud designed to protect the hand, it is a jacket designed to prevent the barrel from getting so hot that rounds start cooking off when chambered. It is a heat sink designed to carry away heat from the barrel, into the jacket. Per the designer.

Only an idiot or hero would touch that shroud bare handed. Which is why the army issued asbestos gloves to the crew in case they ever did have to grab the gun by the jacket.
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2020, 10:15 PM
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Ours was a while ago. Thanks for the insight.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2020, 6:21 AM
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Yep. I bought an A6 stock for mine back during those talks in case I needed it, but am still unsure which direction I need to go with it.
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2020, 9:27 AM
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The Barrel Jacket is not considered a shroud per the penal code below. It will burn the shooters hand which is backed up by the Military Field Manual on the 1919 which states "a. To avoid serious burns, care must be exercised that the barrel and jacket are not touched with bare hands. For moving the gun or disassembling a hot barrel, the asbestos mittens should be used"

11 CCR § 5471
§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.

(jj) “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.

Last edited by sass2924; 11-03-2020 at 9:30 AM..
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  #11  
Old 11-03-2020, 11:04 AM
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Ha, so that stupid "burn the hand" language came back to bite them.
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2020, 12:14 PM
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To clarify, there was some initial concern that the Department of Justice may interpret the Barrel Jacket to be a shroud without supporting documentation demonstrating otherwise. Upon further investigation, the Field Manual appears to, in my opinion, provide the necessary documentation.

it is my opinion that the language "[t]o avoid serious burns, care must be exercised that the barrel and jacket are not touched with bare hands. For moving the gun or disassembling a hot barrel, the asbestos mittens should be used" within the Field Manual clarifies that the barrel jacket on the 1919A4 would not constitute a barrel shroud under Title 11 CCR 5471(jj), which defines a shroud as follows: “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand...."

I have no clarification from the Department of Justice as to whether they would agree or opine otherwise.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2020, 12:30 PM
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Thanks Jason
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:07 PM
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Thanks for the information everyone.

Apologies if I'm posting in the wrong thread, but it appears that the capacity to accept the ammunition from a position outside the handgrip may in itself be a feature that triggers assault weapon status.

Any insights here?

Thanks.
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Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
Thanks for the information everyone.

Apologies if I'm posting in the wrong thread, but it appears that the capacity to accept the ammunition from a position outside the handgrip may in itself be a feature that triggers assault weapon status.

Any insights here?

Thanks.
Where do you see that? Are you referring to a handgun or a rifle?
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  #16  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:17 PM
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I should have elaborated, this is for the 1919A4 variant that was transferred as something other than a rifle.

I need to dig up my old registration papers, but I believe mine was transferred that way. In that case (my understanding) is that more assault weapon features may apply, including the AW handgun feature of accepting ammunition outside of the handgrip.

I am not a lawyer, just a shmuck trying hard to stay legal. I thought this would be an authoritative place to ask, hope I'm not stirring things up unnecessarily.
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.
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  #17  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Where do you see that? Are you referring to a handgun or a rifle?
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
....
(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(J) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
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Old 12-13-2020, 4:24 PM
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Thank you CSACannoneer! I was looking you up to chase down that legal quote, and saw you were replying to this very thread!
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:25 PM
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So, let's design a "pistol grip" that protrudes below the action and works as a loading chute.
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Old 12-13-2020, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
Thank you CSACannoneer! I was looking you up to chase down that legal quote, and saw you were replying to this very thread!
Don't thank me, I wish we were both wrong.
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  #21  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
....
(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(J) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
Fortunately, for my customer he had the A6 version and it was DROSd as a rifle.
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  #22  
Old 12-13-2020, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Fortunately, for my customer he had the A6 version and it was DROSd as a rifle.
I would suggest to him that he keep the stock on at all times or, he's looking at a possible AW charge/conviction.
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Old 12-13-2020, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
I would suggest to him that he keep the stock on at all times or, he's looking at a possible AW charge/conviction.
No different then the everyday customer purchasing a stripped lower and building it incorrectly. Or a customer that buys a featureless rifle and replaces the grip with an actual pistol grip, etc.. Or a customer that purchases a complete lower...maybe they'll install rimfire..maybe not. Hopefully, they know what they are doing.

I make the assumption that the customers will do what they need to understand and comply with the laws or consult their attorney if needed.
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2020, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
Thanks for the information everyone.

Apologies if I'm posting in the wrong thread, but it appears that the capacity to accept the ammunition from a position outside the handgrip may in itself be a feature that triggers assault weapon status.

Any insights here?

Thanks.
There is no "pistol grip" (the actual words used in the law) on a 1919.

A 1919 is a crew served, mounted weapon

Show me the person who can hold a 1919 like a pistol

But seriously, CA AW law defines a pistol grip for AW purposes. A CA Attorney General opined in a written letter that a 1919 does not have one

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Last edited by SkyHawk; 12-13-2020 at 6:41 PM..
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  #25  
Old 12-13-2020, 6:48 PM
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Hi Skyhawk

I don't think anyone here is worried about the pistol grip. Though the information you post here is very useful, thank you for that.

Instead, we're worried about the fact that the 1919A4 variant was normally transferred as a centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

As CSACANNONEER writes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
....
(9) A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that does not have a fixed magazine, but that has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(G) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(H) A second handgrip.
(I) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(J) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
So for those of us with the A4 variant that was transferred as a centerfire firearm not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that last one is an issue. Likely triggering assault weapon status.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.

Last edited by Experimentalist; 12-13-2020 at 6:50 PM..
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Old 12-13-2020, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Experimentalist View Post
...
I need to dig up my old registration papers, but I believe mine was transferred that way. ...
If someone doesn't have a copy of a pre-2014 DROS and can't remember the dealer, where would they get the info on whether it was transferred as a rifle or other?
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Old 12-14-2020, 6:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperTarget View Post
If someone doesn't have a copy of a pre-2014 DROS and can't remember the dealer, where would they get the info on whether it was transferred as a rifle or other?
There are only TWO options on a DROS form. It was either transferred as a handgun or it was transferred as a long gun.
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2021, 4:41 PM
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Default Any movement on this from CA?

Hi everyone. Curious to know if there's been any movement on the part of California to open a registration period?

Any insights as to how we proceed?

Thanks in advance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2021, 2:51 AM
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APEX gun parts, has the 1919a6 stocks
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Old 09-14-2021, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankhatch View Post
APEX gun parts, has the 1919a6 stocks
Thank you for the source Tankhatch.

Unfortunately I don't think that is going to solve the issue at hand. Element "J" in the law is the catch:

Quote:
(J) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
Sounds like no one has any real idea what we should do?
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Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.
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Old 09-14-2021, 6:31 PM
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The Barrel Jacket is not considered a shroud per the penal code below. It will burn the shooters hand which is backed up by the Military Field Manual on the 1919 which states "a. To avoid serious burns, care must be exercised that the barrel and jacket are not touched with bare hands. For moving the gun or disassembling a hot barrel, the asbestos mittens should be used"

11 CCR § 5471
§ 5471. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Explanation of Terms Related to Assault Weapon Designation.

(jj) “Shroud” means a heat shield that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, allowing the shooter to fire the weapon with one hand and grasp the firearm over the barrel with the other hand without burning the shooter's hand. A slide that encloses the barrel is not a shroud.
I think that you are mis-reading the statute provision. Reading the first line it mentions the shroud that encircles the barrel partially or completely. The second part about allowing the shooter to fire the weapon and grasp the barrel is not rendered moot because it is HARD (but not impossible) to shoot the A4. We all well know about Sgt.Basilon's exact use of the weapon in that way.

There is no question that the A4 CAN be fired from the hip and the shroud over the barrel WILL certainly help keep the user from burning his had while grasping the weapon. Granted it won't help for long however, the law doesn't say the shroud has to be terribly effective or even allow for prolonged shooting of the gun. I would NOT risk a felony on the argument that "well" the shroud on the 1919a4 isn't perfect for prolonged use of the weapon".
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Old 09-14-2021, 6:33 PM
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Hi everyone. Curious to know if there's been any movement on the part of California to open a registration period?

Any insights as to how we proceed?

Thanks in advance.
Not that I know of. I went onto my CFARS account and tried to register my 1919a4, but found no way to do it. I put in an inquiry on the CFARS account, but have not yet received a response.
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Old 09-14-2021, 7:14 PM
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Thank you for the source Tankhatch.

Unfortunately I don't think that is going to solve the issue at hand. Element "J" in the law is the catch:



Sounds like no one has any real idea what we should do?
Once you put a stock on, it is no longer Title 1 "other", and so rifle laws apply. And that means "magazine outside pistol grip" is irrelevant. If magazine outside pistol grip was a AW feature for rifles, we would not have M1 carbines, M1A, Ruger PCC, Mini 14 etc...

Numrich also has A6 stocks, that is where I got mine for $82, looks like they went up a few bucks.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/29990

Apex has them cheaper
https://www.apexgunparts.com/1919a4-...sraeli-gd.html
https://www.apexgunparts.com/brownin...-steel-vg.html
https://www.apexgunparts.com/brownin...steel-nos.html
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Old 09-14-2021, 8:28 PM
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Once you put a stock on, it is no longer Title 1 "other", and so rifle laws apply. And that means "magazine outside pistol grip" is irrelevant. If magazine outside pistol grip was a AW feature for rifles, we would not have M1 carbines, M1A, Ruger PCC, Mini 14 etc...
Thanks for the information, this is helpful.

I worry a bit about the status of the firearm as originally DROSed. At first blush the addition of a stock seems to be a flimsy fig leaf against AW status given the fact it was DROSed as something other than a rifle.

But... I appreciate a firearm can change legal status with modifications. For example a rifle may be transformed into a short barrel rifle with a simple cut of the barrel. And there are plenty of legal precedents for people prosecuted for illegal modifications.

It seems reasonable that modification into a rifle through addition of a stock should have the effect you describe.

Editing to ask: The fact of the tripod mount shouldn't be an issue, correct? There is no mention of "tripod mounts" in AW features of course, and the fact if it being able to mount on a tripod does not affect rifle status. I'm just thinking out loud to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. I think I've convinced myself that it's not an issue.

Thanks again, much appreciated.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Who uses 9mm for SD? Anything less than a 50BMG is stupid to use. Personally, I prefer canister rounds out of a 10lb Parrott rifle for SD.

Last edited by Experimentalist; 09-14-2021 at 8:31 PM..
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Old 09-14-2021, 9:13 PM
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Thanks for the information, this is helpful.

I worry a bit about the status of the firearm as originally DROSed. At first blush the addition of a stock seems to be a flimsy fig leaf against AW status given the fact it was DROSed as something other than a rifle.


Editing to ask: The fact of the tripod mount shouldn't be an issue, correct? There is no mention of "tripod mounts" in AW features of course, and the fact if it being able to mount on a tripod does not affect rifle status. I'm just thinking out loud to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. I think I've convinced myself that it's not an issue.

I don't think the tripod or carry handle would make a difference for CA laws. They would only matter to someone doing a correct purist conversion from A4 to A6.

And generally, these were not DROSd as something "other than a rifle". Mine was DROSd as a rifle in 2018, because there was no "other" option at that time. So I have a rifle DROS, and a buttstock attached.

I have not decided what I am going to do. I may get an experienced firearms attorney involved and file AW reg under protest, because the 1919A4 configuration does not meet criteria for the law in fact or in spirit (that is just my opinion). Then see how DOJ responds...
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 09-14-2021 at 9:20 PM..
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Old 09-16-2021, 9:43 AM
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"other" will be available in the DROS system in a couple weeks.

I can't tell you how i know this or why. It will be there.
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Old 09-16-2021, 3:33 PM
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"other" will be available in the DROS system in a couple weeks.

I can't tell you how i know this or why. It will be there.
I'll believe it when I see it
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Old 09-16-2021, 5:20 PM
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I'll believe it when I see it
It’s going to happen and sooner than later.
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Old 09-23-2021, 8:51 AM
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Any updates on registration. I just looked on cfars and there is not option for other yet!
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Old 09-23-2021, 9:07 AM
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Any updates on registration. I just looked on cfars and there is not option for other yet!


^^ I think I forgot that last time..
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