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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 02-15-2019, 4:12 PM
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Default Question - Modify trigger of CCW pistol - legal ramifications?

Although those of us living in, say Los Angeles County, cannot get a CCW unless politically connected, we do have CCW outside Komiefornia.

When I travel off-state, I carry an M&P Shield 9... Well, I wanted a G43, but prefer not paying for off roster premiums...

The question then is what are the PROS and CONS for modifying the trigger? In particular when I have to use it in an encounter?

The Shield's trigger is gritty AND for a sub-compact is quite heavy at 7-lbs stock. Am thinking of getting the Duty/Carry kit from APEX. But then again, the legal concerns, etc.

Thoughts anyone? Or should I just reach out to a lawyer? As a member of CRPA, I think I get some "discounts" for some consultations, etc.

Thanks,


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Old 02-15-2019, 4:15 PM
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From what I've gathered a lighter trigger pull should be reasonable, it's more unsafe to have a "too heavy" trigger for the person having to use it then a lighter one that they have more control over. As Bob Vogel said when asked this question , you shouldnt be pointing it at anything you arent ready to destroy anyway.
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Old 02-15-2019, 5:06 PM
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Part of the problem is as gun people we understand an improved trigger makes sense because it leads to better accuracy which means more hits on target and fewer stray bullets flying around.

Some of us are concerned that a jury might not understand that concept and might view a modified gun as a sign we were out to kill someone. Sadly, no one knows for sure what the outcome will be until it happens.

So, you pays your money and you take your choice and hope in the end it all works out for you. I happen to fall in with the "no modification" crowd, partly because my county doesn't allow internal mods, and partly because I only carry 1911's and they have great triggers already.


Last edited by Barbarosa; 02-15-2019 at 5:10 PM..
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Old 02-15-2019, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarosa View Post
Part of the problem is as gun people we understand an improved trigger makes sense because it leads to better accuracy which means more hits on target and fewer stray bullets flying around.

Some of us are concerned that a jury might not understand that concept and might view a modified gun as a sign we were out to kill someone. Sadly, no one knows for sure what the outcome will be until it happens.

So, you pays your money and you take your choice and hope in the end it all works out for you. I happen to fall in with the "no modification" crowd, partly because my county doesn't allow internal mods, and partly because I only carry 1911's and they have great triggers already.
But also remember that the jury never learns about any trigger modifications unless the modification is relevant to some issue at trial.

In both a criminal and civil case, I can't see how such a modification would be relevant to an intentional shooting. If anyone knows of an actual case, please present the facts for us.

In a civil case involving an accidental discharge, there may likely be some relevance and I would expect that a court would allow the issue to be presented to a jury. The same would be true for a murder/manslaughter case in a criminal court.
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Old 02-15-2019, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post

The question then is what are the PROS and CONS for modifying the trigger? In particular when I have to use it in an encounter?

_
Pros: Improved shoot-ability and likely accuracy. Could mean the difference between living and...well...not, in an armed encounter.

Cons: It MIGHT prove problematic in a criminal or civil trial.

Some experts will advise against modifying your carry gun in any way. Massad Ayoob comes to mind. With this said, you don't hear about a lot of court cases where, say, a trigger job was the definitive difference between someone going free and going to jail...or having to pay in a civil case. Spend some time with your GoogleFu and see if you can come up with anything. And please post it here if you do.

My personal opinion is that I will do any REASONABLE modification to improve my chances of surviving the gunfight so that I'm still alive to deal with whatever legal matters come next. I personally think that any GOOD attorney can counter most of what would come up in court...

Example:

Prosecuting Attorney: Mr. Cabo, I see that you lightened your trigger. Clearly this indicates that you are a blood thirsty maniac just looking for a fight.

My Attorney: My client lightened his trigger to improve the accuracy of the gun to ensure he would hit his target and not injure or kill an innocent bystander down range. While he did lighten his trigger a bit it is still consistent with the trigger weight of several factory guns such as Wilson Combat.

Note that I said "reasonable." Obviously if you lighten your trigger to 2 lbs and then ND into someone, things probably aren't going to go too well for you in court. But I'm of the opinion that a good shoot is a good shoot...and a bad shoot is a bad shoot. But simply lightening your trigger a bit isn't going to change an otherwise good shoot into a bad one. But who knows...I may be wrong here. This is just my opinion and I'm willing to accept whatever the consequences are. As I said, my first priority is to stay alive. YMMV.
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Old 02-16-2019, 6:52 AM
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Default CCW Modifications

Save yourself the time and chit chat, call your sheriffs dept. Here in Orange County, it is illegal to change anything on your ccw besides grips and sights. If you wanted a better trigger, you should have bought one with all the specs that suited your needs.
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Old 02-16-2019, 7:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bcoc2002 View Post
Save yourself the time and chit chat, call your sheriffs dept. Here in Orange County, it is illegal to change anything on your ccw besides grips and sights. If you wanted a better trigger, you should have bought one with all the specs that suited your needs.


^This. Instead of internet experts.


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Old 02-16-2019, 7:15 AM
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Thank you all for the replies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarosa View Post
Some of us are concerned that a jury might not understand that concept and might view a modified gun as a sign we were out to kill someone. Sadly, no one knows for sure what the outcome will be until it happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM3s3SqtPEo
That is a good link! Insightful! Thanks... And frankly, I am more concerned about the 3rd implication mention, especially that I compete in pistol matches (in the stock/production divisions with minimal modifications).


Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
But also remember that the jury never learns about any trigger modifications unless the modification is relevant to some issue at trial.

In both a criminal and civil case, I can't see how such a modification would be relevant to an intentional shooting. If anyone knows of an actual case, please present the facts for us.
Hhhhmmm... But ain't the 3rd point presented in the URL above relevant such that the plaintiff's lawyer will somehow "twist" the facts, etc? In the 1-min 7-sec mark: https://youtu.be/uM3s3SqtPEo?t=67


Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
My personal opinion is that I will do any REASONABLE modification to improve my chances of surviving the gunfight so that I'm still alive to deal with whatever legal matters come next. I personally think that any GOOD attorney can counter most of what would come up in court...

.....

Note that I said "reasonable." Obviously if you lighten your trigger to 2 lbs and then ND into someone, things probably aren't going to go too well for you in court.
*nod*

Interesting take on the cross-examination.

Personally, I am fine with stock. My HD is completely stock, except for the sights. My alternative CCW, if the situation allows me to carry, is the G19.3 compact is also stock.

My grip is that the sub-compact Shield has a 7-lbs trigger pull!?!

Quote:
As I said, my first priority is to stay alive. YMMV.
I would have to go with that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoc2002 View Post
Save yourself the time and chit chat, call your sheriffs dept. Here in Orange County, it is illegal to change anything on your ccw besides grips and sights. If you wanted a better trigger, you should have bought one with all the specs that suited your needs.
As I mentioned, I live in LA County and hence cannot carry in CA. My question was more geared to when I have to carry out-of-state.

If ever that I need to OC - I guess I will have no choice but to pay a premium for the Glock 43.

Well, I guess, then I should make use of my CRPA benefits and reach out to a lawyer.


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Old 02-16-2019, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoc2002 View Post
Save yourself the time and chit chat, call your sheriffs dept. Here in Orange County, it is illegal to change anything on your ccw besides grips and sights. If you wanted a better trigger, you should have bought one with all the specs that suited your needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadedM333 View Post
^This. Instead of internet experts.


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Actually, wrong. It is a violation of the terms of your issuance of your permit. Thats not “illegal”. There is a very real difference.

But, yes, he should learn the regulations in the states where he carries.

Tennesse issued my sister in law a resident permit thst says “handgun”, they dont care beyond that. In such a situation, having an idea of the general legal implications is a good idea, and they have been set forth above.
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2019, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Hhhhmmm... But ain't the 3rd point presented in the URL above relevant such that the plaintiff's lawyer will somehow "twist" the facts, etc? In the 1-min 7-sec mark: https://youtu.be/uM3s3SqtPEo?t=67
_

I watched the video. In it, the salesman only makes the point that the plaintiff's attorney is going to try to show that you modified the trigger pull. The salesman's statements are certainly true. More generally, the plaintiff's attorney will try to anything that will be helpful to their client's case.

Law schools run a full semester required course to teach their students how to do this - usually labeled "Trial Advocacy."

And this is why there are rules of evidence to ensure that the attorneys in a civil case don't go off on wild tangents. You should expect that the plaintiff's attorney will try to bring the issue in, and you should expect the defense attorney to object. The judge hears the arguments on both sides. If there is relevance to the modification, you should expect the court to allow the evidence in. If there is no relevance, you should expect it to stay out.
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Old 02-16-2019, 2:10 PM
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Thank you guys for the response!

I made my decision - I just ordered the Apex Tactical trigger kit from OpticsPlanet for about $128.

Would see how it goes...

Cheers,


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Old 02-16-2019, 2:24 PM
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I don't have a California CCW but am thinking about it if Gore is still processing them. I do have one through Arizona as I do have properties in Arizona and Utah. My preferred carry weapon is the CZ P-01 which I sent to CGW for their Pro-package mod. While that mod smooth's out the trigger, shortens the reset and brings the trigger rearward 5mm I didn't change the weight of the trigger. One of the reasons I carry a SA/DA with a decocker is because of concerns of a ND and I am quite comfortable with the "heavy" pull while the firearm is in the half-cocked position.
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