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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #3201  
Old 05-21-2019, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by stag6.8 View Post
Hopefully if things go well in New York... This will also effect flanagan in the 9th circus as well.
With bated breath....with bated breath.
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  #3202  
Old 05-21-2019, 7:11 PM
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Not to get too far astray, but going back and reading Heller II, does anyone else detect something chilly going on between Ginsburg and Kavanaugh?
Rigor mortis setting in?
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  #3203  
Old 06-10-2019, 3:08 PM
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So what would be the expected timeline from now on?
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  #3204  
Old 06-11-2019, 6:39 AM
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So what would be the expected timeline from now on?
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  #3205  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:28 AM
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So what would be the expected timeline from now on?

Experience watching pending court cases on Cal Guns show that a few months to a few years is a good range to expect.

Actually that's exactly what "Two Weeks" means.
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  #3206  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:43 PM
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  #3207  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:06 PM
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Yeah, sure.

There is an actual timeline for remaining conferences and related cases progression.
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  #3208  
Old 06-11-2019, 9:59 PM
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Yeah, sure.

There is an actual timeline for remaining conferences and related cases progression.
There is.

But there is no evidence that this suit is following that schedule, thus the suspicion it is being held.
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  #3209  
Old 06-12-2019, 6:45 AM
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I understand. That is why I asked if someone has an actual insight. Surprisingly, there are a few people on the interwebs who do know what they are talking about and do not sneer.
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  #3210  
Old 06-12-2019, 8:22 AM
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I understand. That is why I asked if someone has an actual insight. Surprisingly, there are a few people on the interwebs who do know what they are talking about and do not sneer.
The "two weeks" is an old joke about something else. You would have to have been around the site roughly 10 years ago to get it.

But, this case has taken 10 years to get to where it is now. What happens now at the Supreme Court is anybody's guess.
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  #3211  
Old 06-12-2019, 8:35 AM
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So what would be the expected timeline from now on?
For those who haven't dealt with the legal system's treatment of Second Amendment Rights and the laws that violate it, there is a widespread assumption that the courts can be relied upon to give fair and timely treatment of important court cases.

Stick around a few years and see if you can't learn how the real world works.

You asked a reasonable question and got a reasonable and accurate answer based on many years of real world experience.

There are no sneers here. Only resignation for more of the same treatment from the Legal System.
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  #3212  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaLiberal View Post
Stick around a few years and see if you can't learn how the real world works
Rest assured I do. And there is an actual timeline of events existing given the current working assumptions about this case, which I could have worked out, except asking for that instead is a commonly used quicker alternative. As some people could have already done that. Responding with irrelevant jokes is sneering.
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  #3213  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:03 PM
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I am excited to hear about the 'timeline of events existing given the current working assumptions about this case' when you get that nailed down.

I beg you to please share this information with the rest of us.

Seriously, this would be very interesting to know.


Please take note that this thread was started in 2013.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...02&postcount=1

The original complaint in the case was filed in 2009.

http://ia800904.us.archive.org/7/ite...191444.1.0.pdf

I there anything regarding this case that can be called 'Timely'?
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  #3214  
Old 06-12-2019, 5:37 PM
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I there anything regarding this case that can be called 'Timely'?

It is called Tyranny folks, Tyranny under color of law.

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  #3215  
Old 06-12-2019, 5:50 PM
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I there anything regarding this case that can be called 'Timely'?
Yes. It will not be on hold indefinitely. In fact, it is highly unlikely to be on hold longer than this year. And this is the ~final stop.

Roster dwindling down also made its arguments stronger. That was not the case in 2009.

Last edited by Offwidth; 06-12-2019 at 5:52 PM..
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  #3216  
Old 06-12-2019, 7:09 PM
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Yes. It will not be on hold indefinitely. In fact, it is highly unlikely to be on hold longer than this year. And this is the ~final
stop.
Right, so it could be done in a year or it could have to be re-litigated through the lower courts and appealed to SCOTUS again, which could be a few more years. We just don't know without more action from SCOTUS and the outcome of NY case

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Roster dwindling down also made its arguments stronger. That was not the case in 2009.
Ah yes and this is where logic fails. You think this matters to liberal justices ? The difference between 250 guns on the roster and a 1000 means nothing to them. Maybe if we start talking 10-15 guns vs 500 they might take some notice. Even then half would claim you can still exercise your right so it's not an infringement.
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  #3217  
Old 06-13-2019, 2:10 AM
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NYSRPA has cert.

There is just enough other 2A stuff which appears to just be disappearing in SCOTUS without anything happening that I'm coming around to the idea that the case which has cert is expected to result in a ruling which is broad in scope and also pretty explicit about the right to self-defense.

So NYSRPA gets a rather blunt and forceful ruling and the other cases get remanded to the lower courts with a directive to do their job right in view of the NYSRPA ruling. If this is what happens, then I expect this to be substantial progress although litigation will likely then continue for decades to come.

And IANAL or a highly informed court watcher. So I could be way off.
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  #3218  
Old 06-13-2019, 7:23 AM
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Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
NYSRPA has cert.

There is just enough other 2A stuff which appears to just be disappearing in SCOTUS without anything happening that I'm coming around to the idea that the case which has cert is expected to result in a ruling which is broad in scope and also pretty explicit about the right to self-defense.

So NYSRPA gets a rather blunt and forceful ruling and the other cases get remanded to the lower courts with a directive to do their job right in view of the NYSRPA ruling. If this is what happens, then I expect this to be substantial progress although litigation will likely then continue for decades to come.

And IANAL or a highly informed court watcher. So I could be way off.
My money is on this. SCOTUS wants to make a specific ruling with broad implications that calls the lower courts to task on 2A and give them an unmistakable chance to get it right since they apparently found Heller too ambiguous... before they have to start slapping them upside the head.

This is one instance where delay was our friend and time is on our side.
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  #3219  
Old 06-13-2019, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaLiberal View Post
I am excited to hear about the 'timeline of events existing given the current working assumptions about this case' when you get that nailed down.I beg you to please share this information with the rest of us. Seriously, this would be very interesting to know.

Please take note that this thread was started in 2013.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...02&postcount=1
The original complaint in the case was filed in 2009.
http://ia800904.us.archive.org/7/ite...191444.1.0.pdf
I there anything regarding this case that can be called 'Timely'?
The ground work behind the complaint started not long after the 2006 American Rifleman front-cover highlighting the XD-45 Bitone. The argument with the state of California is almost old enough to shave or drive.
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  #3220  
Old 06-13-2019, 6:10 PM
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The Supreme Court gets 10,000 cases per year, petitions for certiorari. The the only grant cases that settle important points of law. That boils down to 80 cases or so a year, of all types. There are so many unconstitutional laws passed by states and as egregious as the roster is, the chances of this case being accepted are very, very slim. That said, I’m waiting for the miracle to happen....
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  #3221  
Old 06-13-2019, 7:16 PM
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The Supreme Court gets 10,000 cases per year, petitions for certiorari. The the only grant cases that settle important points of law. That boils down to 80 cases or so a year, of all types. There are so many unconstitutional laws passed by states and as egregious as the roster is, the chances of this case being accepted are very, very slim. That said, I’m waiting for the miracle to happen....
Well the way it's supposed to work is that occasionally we'd win a case at the circuit court level, and then it wouldn't matter of cert was denied. That's the way it works at most circuits, but as we all know, that isn't how it works in the 9th, where their standard operating procedure is to uphold any and all 2a-infringing laws that come their way. In many other parts of the country, the system works great, but it's failing here because of a highly politicized left-leaning bench.

The problem isn't that SCOTUS can't take very many cases - the problem is that our only chance of ever winning anything is for SCOTUS to take our cases. It's a problem that has to be resolved at the circuit court level. The 9th is full of entirely WAY too many liberal appointees.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-13-2019 at 7:19 PM..
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  #3222  
Old 06-14-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Well the way it's supposed to work is that occasionally we'd win a case at the circuit court level, and then it wouldn't matter of cert was denied. That's the way it works at most circuits, but as we all know, that isn't how it works in the 9th, where their standard operating procedure is to uphold any and all 2a-infringing laws that come their way. In many other parts of the country, the system works great, but it's failing here because of a highly politicized left-leaning bench.

The problem isn't that SCOTUS can't take very many cases - the problem is that our only chance of ever winning anything is for SCOTUS to take our cases. It's a problem that has to be resolved at the circuit court level. The 9th is full of entirely WAY too many liberal appointees.
We only need them to take one. We need them to force strict scrutiny as with ever other enumerated right. Then maybe one to say any firearm part, accessory or ammunition is covered by the second amendment. Then their work can be done. That should put an end to this crap.
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Old 06-15-2019, 3:51 AM
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We only need them to take one. We need them to force strict scrutiny as with ever other enumerated right. Then maybe one to say any firearm part, accessory or ammunition is covered by the second amendment. Then their work can be done. That should put an end to this crap.
You sort of should be right but I've concerns.

First, applying any sort of scrutiny can be considered to be a way to find an excuse to infringe a right which the Constitution says may not be infringed. So some think that there should be no scrutiny for the right to self-defense and maybe any other fundamental right. But it is possible that strict scrutiny is the best for which we may hope?

It is not clear to me that even if the SCOTUS handed down the ruling of my dreams regarding the 2A that this would really start the restoration of our rights.

The Circuit Courts have demonstrated that they are happy to not exactly ignore rather clear Constitutional language and fairly clear SCOTUS rulings in order to lawyer their way into limiting freedom. I think that it will likely require multiple interventions of some sorts in order to get the Circuits to properly apply the Constitution.

But a great ruling will be very helpful.

Potentially even more helpful may be Trump appointing Circuit judges. Even the 9th Circuit is changing to where it just might no longer be considered to be a clear advocate for un-constitutional behavior.

I still think Trump is a jerk. But we desperately need the re-election of Trump or to elect someone who will make similar or maybe even better appointments. We need a deep bench of judges who respect the Constitution and our fundamental rights.
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Old 06-20-2019, 3:03 PM
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You sort of should be right but I've concerns.

First, applying any sort of scrutiny can be considered to be a way to find an excuse to infringe a right which the Constitution says may not be infringed. So some think that there should be no scrutiny for the right to self-defense and maybe any other fundamental right. But it is possible that strict scrutiny is the best for which we may hope?

It is not clear to me that even if the SCOTUS handed down the ruling of my dreams regarding the 2A that this would really start the restoration of our rights.

The Circuit Courts have demonstrated that they are happy to not exactly ignore rather clear Constitutional language and fairly clear SCOTUS rulings in order to lawyer their way into limiting freedom. I think that it will likely require multiple interventions of some sorts in order to get the Circuits to properly apply the Constitution.

I think this is something KCBrown has complained about. They say intermediate scrutiny, but we get rational basis. There is nothing stopping the circuit courts from saying strict, and we get rational basis again. Ultimately the judges will give us rational basis no matter if the supreme court rules it has to be strict.
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Old 06-20-2019, 9:57 PM
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...Potentially even more helpful may be Trump appointing Circuit judges. Even the 9th Circuit is changing to where it just might no longer be considered to be a clear advocate for un-constitutional behavior...
The 9th has already given us the dirty end of the stick again. The en banc panel for Young has already been chosen -- before the latest appointments by DJT were made.

This stacks the panel against us before we even start.

We are going to need a really good ruling from SCOTUS to overcome this problem. And what is even worse is that whatever the en banc panel decides will be precedent in the 9th until overturned at SCOTUS, which may take a century or more...
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Old 06-21-2019, 1:33 AM
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The 9th has already given us the dirty end of the stick again. The en banc panel for Young has already been chosen -- before the latest appointments by DJT were made.

This stacks the panel against us before we even start.

We are going to need a really good ruling from SCOTUS to overcome this problem. And what is even worse is that whatever the en banc panel decides will be precedent in the 9th until overturned at SCOTUS, which may take a century or more...
Yup, I'm aware of that problem and I'm not saying that the 9th Circus will soon have a majority which truly respects the Constitution.

You do have to admire the slick move to kill Young even if we should also revile it.

The key is that while a win in NYSRPA should be a big help, the struggle for respect of our rights will certainly not be over.
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  #3227  
Old 06-24-2019, 6:03 AM
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Looks like no action again from SCOTUS..
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  #3228  
Old 06-24-2019, 9:48 AM
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Looks like no action again from SCOTUS..
Don’t expect anything until after NYSPRA is settled.
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:54 AM
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Looks like no action again from SCOTUS..
It's being held in lieu of a decision on New York, you can stop looking for it until SCOTUS decides.
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Old 06-25-2019, 5:05 PM
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Does this "held" status have an official name, or perhaps some procedure?
Has this happened before?
Or is this a singular event for the court?
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Old 06-25-2019, 6:01 PM
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Does this "held" status have an official name, or perhaps some procedure?
Has this happened before?
Or is this a singular event for the court?
No official name. This status is based on an absence of information/updates where normally there are updates. It has happened before.
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  #3232  
Old 06-25-2019, 6:58 PM
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It's being held in lieu of a decision on New York, you can stop looking for it until SCOTUS decides.
I'd rather see that, the other option would be that someone was writing a dissent from denial of cert...
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