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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:02 AM
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Default GOA Bumpstock (6th Circuit reverse and remand 3-25-21))

GOA's bumpstock oral arguments are up


http://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/inte...Barr%20et%20al
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2019, 6:32 AM
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Around 13 minutes to 17 minutes the judge seems to contort that the continuous forward pressure on the gun is equivalent to a single pull of the trigger, to create rapid fire, and is then rapid fire by a single pull of the trigger
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:07 PM
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Default GOA wins Bumpstock case in 6th circuit

Could not find old thread on this, please feel free to merge.

Court ruled Chevron can not be used for criminal statute, which is huge if it holds up.

Quote:
Because an agency’s interpretation of a criminal statute is not entitled to Chevron
deference and because the ATF’s Final Rule is not the best interpretation of § 5845(b), we
REVERSE the district court’s judgment and REMAND for proceedings consistent with this
opinion.
https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opi...1a0070p-06.pdf

Last edited by NorCalRT; 03-25-2021 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 03-25-2021, 1:18 PM
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Not a CA case, so in National.

Merged.
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Old 03-25-2021, 2:56 PM
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Old 03-26-2021, 11:27 AM
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So can we buy bumpstocks now?
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  #7  
Old 03-26-2021, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbo View Post
So can we buy bumpstocks now?
In the 6th Circuit, for now. No effect in the 9th, where CA is located.
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Old 03-26-2021, 11:57 AM
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Hopefully this decision stands, it will come in handy for the future fight against "ghost guns" suddenly being called guns despite the clear definition in black letter law.
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The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
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Old 03-28-2021, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbo View Post
So can we buy bumpstocks now?
1. Federally, no effect in CA since we're in 9th Circuit not 6th Circuit.

2. Even if this Fed case were 'active' in CA, it is only challenging the ATF's
policy of "Bump stock == machinegun".

It appears to NOT challenge CA or other states' laws regarding these or
"multiburst trigger activators" etc.
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  #10  
Old 04-07-2021, 11:29 AM
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Could this precedent be used to support a suit challenging ATF’s redefinition of the Fostech Origin 12 SBV?
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  #11  
Old 05-10-2021, 5:42 PM
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PETITION FOR REHEARING EN BANC
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  #12  
Old 12-03-2021, 11:55 PM
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I believe this is the same case... Bump-Stock Ban Remains as Appeals Court Splits on Gun Law

Quote:
A government ban on firearm accessories known as bump stocks will remain in place, after a federal court decision upholding the law was affirmed by an evenly divided full Sixth Circuit on Friday.

Gun Owners of America and other groups challenged the ATF rule and asked for a preliminary injunction to block it. The district court denied the challengers’ request.

The 8–8 even division of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit allows that lower court decision to stand. A majority vote would be needed to overturn the lower court...
From the link in the quote (the decision)...

Quote:
In sum, the rule of lenity is inapplicable. The Chevron framework applies to ATF’s legislative regulation—the Final Rule; and because the statute is ambiguous and ATF’s construction is permissible and reasonable, it warrants deference. Alternatively, ATF’s interpretation of the statute is entitled to Skidmore deference. Finally, simply as a matter of statutory interpretation, the Final Rule embodies the best interpretation of the statute and operates to provide fair notice of that interpretation. The district court’s judgment should be affirmed.
There was a short concurrence and a lengthy dissent filed with the decision (same link). From the dissent...

Quote:
By continuously firing at rapid speeds with one activation of the trigger, machine guns can inflict great harm in short periods. And no doubt many people believe that rifles equipped with bump stocks share the same dangerous traits that led Congress to ban machine guns. Bump-Stock Rule, 83 Fed. Reg. at 66,520. So even though these newer devices might not fall “within the letter” of the statutory “machinegun” ban, courts may be tempted to treat them as covered anyway because they fall within its underlying “spirit.” Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 143 U.S. 457, 459 (1892). In a country with a fluid separation of powers between the branches of government, this judicial approach of enlarging a statute through “equitable” interpretation rather than legislation might not be problematic. See John F. Manning, Textualism and the Equity of the Statute, 101 Colum. L. Rev. 1, 8 (2001). In our country, however, the judiciary has long had a narrower duty: “to apply, not amend, the work of the People’s representatives.” Henson v. Santander Consumer USA Inc., 137 S. Ct. 1718, 1726 (2017). This duty leaves the policy debate over whether to ban bump stocks where it belongs—with the legislative branch accountable to the people. And since that branch has not seen fit to ban bump stocks or give a federal agency the power to do so, I must respectfully dissent from our judgment affirming the district court’s decision in this case.
According to this piece... Bump stock ban remains intact after appeals court deadlocks...

Quote:
...The group Gun Owners of America (GOA), a challenger in the case, told The Hill in a statement that it would seek relief in the Supreme Court.

“GOA’s fight is not over,” said the group’s senior vice president Erich Pratt. “The fact that the Sixth Circuit was so divided that it could not even give us an answer to our question means that the Supreme Court must eventually decide whether unelected (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) bureaucrats have the power to create new federal crimes out of thin air.”...

Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 12-04-2021 at 12:03 AM..
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  #13  
Old 03-16-2022, 6:56 PM
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Petition for cert. was submitted on 3-3-22.

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-file...inc-v-garland/

Quote:
Issues: (1) Whether the definition of “machinegun” found in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) is clear and unambiguous, and whether bump stocks meet that definition; (2) whether deference under Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council should be given to agency interpretations of ambiguous criminal statutes, displacing the rule of lenity; and (3) whether courts should give deference to agencies when the government expressly waives Chevron.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPD...Certiorari.pdf

Petition link.
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2022, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Apr 06 2022 Brief amici curiae of David Codrea, Scott Heuman, Owen Monroe filed.
Apr 07 2022 Brief amici curiae of States of Montana, West Virginia and 20 Other States in Support of Petitioners filed.
Apr 07 2022 Amicus brief of New Civil Liberties Alliance submitted.
Multiple briefs submitted.

Here's the docket page.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/...c/21-1215.html
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Old 05-24-2022, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
May 24 2022 Brief of Garland, Merrick, et al. in opposition submitted.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketP...20Gardland.pdf
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Old 05-24-2022, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
ATF explained that, after reviewing the text of the National
Firearms Act and its legislative history, the agency had
concluded that the phrase “single function of the trigger”
includes a “single pull of the trigger.”
They used the term a lot in the Rare Breed determination letter.
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Old 06-03-2022, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Jun 03 2022 Reply of Gun Owners of America, Inc., et al. submitted
http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPD...ly%20Brief.pdf
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Old 06-07-2022, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Jun 07 2022 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of 6/23/2022.
Lets see if it get held like the others, or maybe never ending reschedules.
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Old 06-16-2022, 9:22 AM
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The pro gun community has far bigger fish to fry / laws to spend money litigating than the bump stock issue...
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Old 06-16-2022, 9:27 AM
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I disagree. Assault weapons bans and hi cap mag bans have already made their way to SCOTUS. These cases will be the next wave.
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Old 06-16-2022, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
The pro gun community has far bigger fish to fry / laws to spend money litigating than the bump stock issue...
Why do you feel that the ATF magicking a bumpstock into a machinegun at the behest of the president, despite the clearly written law on what is an actual machinegun, isn't a battle worth fighting? Do you approve of thousands to millions of felons being created at the wave of a bureaucrat's wand?

Just like OSHA making medical decisions and CDC making rental property decisions, this is the .gov run amok, and hopefully it can be stopped peacefully by the courts. The alternative might get a little . . . messy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
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Old 06-16-2022, 9:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Why do you feel that the ATF magicking a bumpstock into a machinegun at the behest of the president, despite the clearly written law on what is an actual machinegun, isn't a battle worth fighting? Do you approve of thousands to millions of felons being created at the wave of a bureaucrat's wand?

Just like OSHA making medical decisions and CDC making rental property decisions, this is the .gov run amok, and hopefully it can be stopped peacefully by the courts. The alternative might get a little . . . messy.
Show me ANYONE who owns a bump stock who DID NOT BUY IT because it makes the weapon perform "like" a machine gun"?
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Old 06-16-2022, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Show me ANYONE who owns a bump stock who DID NOT BUY IT because it makes the weapon perform "like" a machine gun"?




#Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
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Old 06-17-2022, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
The pro gun community has far bigger fish to fry / PRIORITY laws to spend money litigating than the bump stock issue...
^^^^helped you a bit^^^

TRUE, some things are higher priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyathyrio View Post
Why do you feel that the ATF magicking a bumpstock into a machinegun at the behest of the president, despite the clearly written law on what is an actual machinegun, isn't a battle worth fighting? Do you approve of thousands to millions of felons being created at the wave of a bureaucrat's wand?

Just like OSHA making medical decisions and CDC making rental property decisions, this is the .gov run amok, and hopefully it can be stopped peacefully by the courts. The alternative might get a little . . . messy.
^^VALID POINT^^^

That is to say. If we as 2A supporters ignore the smaller of the 1,000 cuts of death. Dealt to the 2A. As unimportant. And only concentrate on BIG issues. Instead of a united front against ALL INFRINGEMENTS. We will lose on all issues eventually.

It's that old "Divide and Conquer" thing. And a game that DemRat Socialist have been playing the long game on and winning.

Label IT, vilify IT in the media, gather support against IT, THEN BAN IT, because the majority now says you don't NEED IT. This has worked for them since back in the 1960s. Starting with SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS.

IMHO, there is no way in hell, that I would spend money on a 'bump stock toy". Thats only purpose is to burn ammo. And if you're lucky one round out of 50 may actually hit something you wanted to hit.

But I will defend the right to have one, for those that want them.

Rights aren't about, whatever the Gubermint decides a citizen needs.

It's the FREEDOM to CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT.

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Old 06-17-2022, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Show me ANYONE who owns a bump stock who DID NOT BUY IT because it makes the weapon perform "like" a machine gun"?
Your dick works just like a rapist's, you better hurry up and turn that in!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
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Old 06-17-2022, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Show me ANYONE who owns a bump stock who DID NOT BUY IT because it makes the weapon perform "like" a machine gun"?
Ok? People want machine guns but can’t get them because they are too expensive or are outright illegal. The bump stock provided a legal option. Are you against legal guns?
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Old 06-21-2022, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Jun 21 2022 Rescheduled.
It's starting to look like Aposhian.
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Old 06-21-2022, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
The pro gun community has far bigger fish to fry / laws to spend money litigating than the bump stock issue...
I disagree, and here's why.

If the anti-gun activists can switch the legal debate from how many times the trigger is pulled to the rate at which bullets come out of the gun, then they can shift the "machine gun" argument towards regulating even semo-automatic firearms with totally normal semi-auto triggers and no bump stocks where the triggers simply allow the operator to shoot "too fast" (who defines what is "too fast?" You know it'll be the anti-gun crowd). The claim will be that the semi-auto with 2.5lb match trigger "shoots as fast as a machine gun and therefore is a machine gun."

The next step after that will be to argue that we need to mechanically limit the rate of fire on all semi-auto firearms, then they will reduce this to where the rate of fire is essentially the same as a bolt-action rifle, then to the same as muzzle-loaded black-powder muskets, then to a rate of fire of zero rounds per minute.


If you think about it, even the current definition of a machine gun being one that needs a single pull of the trigger to fire more than one round is just an arbitrary bit of trivia that we happen to be hanging our rights on and haggling over. The ATF drew the line in the sand using the one-pull-one-bullet mechanical behavior, but they could easily move that line in the sand to some other bit of trivia.

Last edited by dchang0; 06-21-2022 at 6:10 PM..
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