Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Competition, Action Shooting And Training.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 88 8.33%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 696 65.85%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.27%
I paid too much for my Membership! 47 4.45%
They will go out of business this year! 31 2.93%
Don't want anything to do with them! 171 16.18%
Voters: 1057. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #12441  
Old 11-08-2020, 5:42 AM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I have a Practical Rifle SB next week. There is a Constitution Course available to attend Monday evening.
Has anyone else attended this class before?
  #12442  
Old 11-10-2020, 4:50 PM
Kenponographer's Avatar
Kenponographer Kenponographer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sonoma county, North Bay Area
Posts: 281
iTrader: 75 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Ken, congrats on getting through ID!
How many classes had you taken previously?

Are you planning on working part time? full time?


thanks for the ID Class rundown, we appreciate it.
I've never kept track of total classes (though it's recorded somewhere), only total days. Last year I spent 77 training days there, this year only 12. Which (sort of) payed off in this case because I was 1: a known quantity for the staff and 2: really over prepared. DGing the test three times in a row sounds cool, but it sets the bar way too high. Taken all together, it was the most stressful class I've taken there, far more then HCMP.
The plan is to be out there this Jan-Feb to knock out the 30 day probitory period and get to Instructor 1. After that I'll be back for a few months at a time as life allows.
__________________
"....And that was fear. It is your constant enemy, and at once your most faithful companion. It is against it that you will fight. Come to love it like a brother, and it will never surprise you." - Born for the Saber
  #12443  
Old 11-10-2020, 4:53 PM
Kenponographer's Avatar
Kenponographer Kenponographer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sonoma county, North Bay Area
Posts: 281
iTrader: 75 / 99%
Default

Rick Green is a really good speaker. I've always enjoyed listening to his Constitution Courses, plenty of good info to pick up there. Have never gotten the dinner that goes with it though.
__________________
"....And that was fear. It is your constant enemy, and at once your most faithful companion. It is against it that you will fight. Come to love it like a brother, and it will never surprise you." - Born for the Saber
  #12444  
Old 11-10-2020, 5:45 PM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks, I signed up for his class, but am not sure about the $15 BBQ part of it.
  #12445  
Old 11-10-2020, 9:31 PM
Divehobo's Avatar
Divehobo Divehobo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,272
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Beanz2, awesome write up and thank you for sharing.
__________________
NRA Pistol, Rifle, CCW and Metallic Reloading instructor
  #12446  
Old 11-11-2020, 7:23 PM
briancj briancj is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default Handgun rental certificate

Going on the 20th, bringing a new shooter /family member, was looking to potential rent from Frontsight, just curious if anyone has any rental certificates available?
  #12447  
Old 11-11-2020, 8:46 PM
damon1272 damon1272 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,838
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

Contact comeshootwithme.com
Half priced certs from Jason. Nice guy.
  #12448  
Old 11-11-2020, 9:31 PM
Jedi54's Avatar
Jedi54 Jedi54 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,012
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Ken, thanks.
Hope to see you out there some day
  #12449  
Old 11-12-2020, 6:40 AM
guntrust's Avatar
guntrust guntrust is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Posts: 757
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by briancj View Post
Going on the 20th, bringing a new shooter /family member, was looking to potential rent from Frontsight, just curious if anyone has any rental certificates available?
I've got quite a few.
__________________
David R Duringer JD LL.M (Tax), CA/WA/TX atty, @guntrust on social nets.
Protective Law Corporation *Estate Planning for Gun Owners* (zoom or office)
Become an affiliated attorney/advisor: http://guncounsel.com
CRPA Mag Must Retract Erroneous Bulletin Slamming Gun Trusts
Radio ads: http://Protect.FM
FREE training: http://guntrust.org
FREE design meeting: http://Protect.LIFE
  #12450  
Old 11-12-2020, 8:47 PM
Ronin75 Ronin75 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: San Jose Area
Posts: 240
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

I’m planning a trip out to FS for the first time this spring. Has anyone recently attended the 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship course. Any pointers or suggestions would be appreciated.
  #12451  
Old 11-12-2020, 11:29 PM
GuillermoAntonio's Avatar
GuillermoAntonio GuillermoAntonio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,502
iTrader: 98 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin75 View Post
I’m planning a trip out to FS for the first time this spring. Has anyone recently attended the 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship course. Any pointers or suggestions would be appreciated.
I’d like to hear about this too!
  #12452  
Old 11-13-2020, 6:31 AM
beanz2's Avatar
beanz2 beanz2 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,843
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin75 View Post
I’m planning a trip out to FS for the first time this spring. Has anyone recently attended the 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship course. Any pointers or suggestions would be appreciated.
These are things that worked for me:

A lightweight rifle makes the standing unsupported position much easier. The volume of fire is perfect for pencil barrels. The farthest distance you’ll shoot for accuracy is 350 yards, so for me a light 1-8x LPVO was adequate. I opted for a thread protector instead of a muzzle brake to keep it light. I stripped anything that I could off the rifle without compromising the function. A lightweight bolt gun should do well too. Forget your 20 lb precision rig unless you’re Chuck Norris.

A 30 rd-bodied magazine is helpful for me as I can hold the magazine as I rest my support elbow against my chest wall. My shooting stance standing unsupported at 37 and 50 yards is very different from my Practical Rifle stance. I do the chicken wing with my strong side elbow. Keep your options, bring 30, 20 and 10 rd magazines if you’re shooting an AR.

A .223 is enough for the class. You just have to have good ammo. For me, that means match ammo, like 69 gr or 77 gr BHTP SMK. Sort of makes up for my poor shooting LOL. You can shoot other chamberings but few shots are shot where the wind matters much. There will be malfunction exercises in class though, so some rounds may get wasted. Remember, no hand loads are allowed.

Some ammo brands give you better groups with your rifle than others even with the same bullet. Try different brands at your home range first and zero the gun on the one you choose.

A good 2-point sling is needed. Tactical one points and bungee slings not as good. This is not Practical Rifle.

Talking about optics, I found that an MRAD (or MOA) reticle is helpful vs. BDC scopes or magnifier-red dot combos. If you are good at remembering hold overs, you may fare well with red dots or BDC scopes, but I suck at that.

Make sure your eye protection works shooting prone. If your optic has an adjustable ocular lens, make sure it is adjusted to match your eye protection.

Get used to shooting prone. Exercise your neck muscles.

As in most rifle classes at FS, elbow and knee pads are essential.

I’m sure there other points I’m forgetting ...

.
__________________

The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
  #12453  
Old 11-13-2020, 6:53 AM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

There is some excellent detailed info on this thread. The first write up, of the course, is on page 258 and slog your way through. It is worth it.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...nship&page=258

I wish there was a sub thread for each class.

I shot .224 Valkyrie and 6.5 CM in that class. You need a level and most consistent ammo you can buy. As beanz said, as lightweight as possible.

Last edited by TeamAllen; 11-13-2020 at 7:01 AM..
  #12454  
Old 11-16-2020, 4:57 AM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Attended the Precision Rifle Fundamentals yesterday. Definitely different siting in a class all day. I was surprised hoe many others were there. Maybe 40?

I expected everyone would be there after marksmanship and before Precision Rifle, like myself. I was the minority for sure. It seemed most people in the class hadn't taken Rifle Marksmanship yet. At first I thought that is a good idea, then I thought probably not. You learn a lot of detailed information about what effects are occurring to the bullet during flight. Like Coriolis effect and spin drift. Most of the stuff applies beyond 400 yards, which the Marksmanship class does not shoot. It might make you worry about things that aren't an issue at those distances. At least the instructors will know the excuses won't work.

One student asked what a Kestrel was. All good, I'm not knocking it, I was just surprised at the early stages of his learning. Later he asked what type of rifle might be best suited for this class. Instructor Skoog said something like the Mossberg Predator (not the 7.62 version) or the Ruger American rifle. After the class I heard that student say to his class neighbor, so I need to buy a rifle for the Marksmanship class that I can't use for the Precision Rifle class and a Kestrel? At least that is how he saw it. It is a challenge.

I learned quite a bit. I'm glad I was able to take it moths before I am taking PR. I can now look into more depth of some of the topics presented.
Time to get ready for the Practical Rifle SB today and tomorrow.
  #12455  
Old 11-16-2020, 6:48 AM
beanz2's Avatar
beanz2 beanz2 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,843
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

I noticed that too. Out of 18 students in PRF, only 4 were taking Precision the next day. Most of the info was new to me, though. It was a good learning time, especially when you actually experience the stuff the following class. I’d take it again if I have time but maybe I should buy the book they recommend.

.
__________________

The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
  #12456  
Old 11-16-2020, 7:08 AM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Heading back in late December for a 2-day Skill Builder. Have previously taken the 2-day and 4-day DHG. Used Berettas both times (92FS, M9A1). Recently picked up an XD9 deciding what to take next time. I love way the Beretas feel in my hand, have done the decocker only and hammer spring mods, but am consistently more accurate with the XD9.

Part of me really wants the challenge of earning the G or DG with the Beretta (feel like it would warrant extra bragging points, especially since I got razzed both times by the staff for being the only person in class with a Beretta). Another part of me just wants to take the XD9 since I'm more consistent with it.
__________________

Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 11-16-2020 at 8:00 AM..
  #12457  
Old 11-16-2020, 7:53 AM
steelciocc's Avatar
steelciocc steelciocc is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 342
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

You can do it Vinnie, stick with that sexy Beretta (from a Beretta shooter : )
  #12458  
Old 11-16-2020, 8:04 AM
ARFrog's Avatar
ARFrog ARFrog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Northern Calif - East Bay area
Posts: 1,239
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

My opinion - take the XD9. Consistence, accuracy and functionality need to be mastered. You can work on the added complexity of the Beretta after you G or DG the XD9.

Put another way, what does FS rent from their rental shack and why might that be?
__________________


ARFrog
  #12459  
Old 11-16-2020, 8:09 AM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARFrog View Post
My opinion - take the XD9. Consistence, accuracy and functionality need to be mastered. You can work on the added complexity of the Beretta after you G or DG the XD9.

Put another way, what does FS rent from their rental shack and why might that be?
Absolutely. Makes perfect sense. It's simple, consistent, easy to use, no frills. It's just tough to take out the Ford Fiesta when you have an old Ferrari in the garage, even if the Ferrari may be harder to drive.
__________________
  #12460  
Old 11-16-2020, 10:33 AM
acegunnr's Avatar
acegunnr acegunnr is offline
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 2,333
iTrader: 182 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelciocc View Post
You can do it Vinnie, stick with that sexy Beretta (from a Beretta shooter : )
Did the staff point out the first aid box to you on Day 1? lol
  #12461  
Old 11-16-2020, 10:49 AM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Did the staff point out the first aid box to you on Day 1? lol
Haha. One of the instructors did get a really bad slide bite form my Beretta. I learned that lesson a while ago and have since learned to cruise through all the malfunctions, etc. with ease and unscathed.
__________________

Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 11-16-2020 at 11:05 AM..
  #12462  
Old 11-16-2020, 10:58 AM
steelciocc's Avatar
steelciocc steelciocc is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 342
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Did the staff point out the first aid box to you on Day 1? lol
Yes, they like to poke fun at Beretta shooters : )
  #12463  
Old 11-16-2020, 12:12 PM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

I think I've decided to take the XD9. Going to be flying out there this time instead of driving and trying to take as little as possible. Picked up an Apache 1800 case from Harbor Freight. Too small for the Berettas (I also picked up the larger 2800 for those). The XD9 fits great in the 1800 and also fits into the small suitcase I'll be checking. My range bag and other related gear fits in the suitcase as well, and then will be packing all my clothes into a Patagonia backpack I've used as a carry-on in the past.







__________________
  #12464  
Old 11-16-2020, 12:31 PM
steelciocc's Avatar
steelciocc steelciocc is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 342
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

If you’re doing December 16-17 I’ll be with you.
  #12465  
Old 11-16-2020, 12:32 PM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelciocc View Post
If you’re doing December 16-17 I’ll be with you.
Wont be out there until the 29th.
__________________
  #12466  
Old 11-16-2020, 1:22 PM
AAShooter's Avatar
AAShooter AAShooter is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,189
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
Attended the Precision Rifle Fundamentals yesterday. Definitely different siting in a class all day. I was surprised hoe many others were there. Maybe 40?

I expected everyone would be there after marksmanship and before Precision Rifle, like myself. I was the minority for sure. It seemed most people in the class hadn't taken Rifle Marksmanship yet. At first I thought that is a good idea, then I thought probably not. You learn a lot of detailed information about what effects are occurring to the bullet during flight. Like Coriolis effect and spin drift. Most of the stuff applies beyond 400 yards, which the Marksmanship class does not shoot. It might make you worry about things that aren't an issue at those distances. At least the instructors will know the excuses won't work.

One student asked what a Kestrel was. All good, I'm not knocking it, I was just surprised at the early stages of his learning. Later he asked what type of rifle might be best suited for this class. Instructor Skoog said something like the Mossberg Predator (not the 7.62 version) or the Ruger American rifle. After the class I heard that student say to his class neighbor, so I need to buy a rifle for the Marksmanship class that I can't use for the Precision Rifle class and a Kestrel? At least that is how he saw it. It is a challenge.

I learned quite a bit. I'm glad I was able to take it moths before I am taking PR. I can now look into more depth of some of the topics presented.
Time to get ready for the Practical Rifle SB today and tomorrow.
I have sat through that class multiple times and am never comfortable with the class. I always find it interesting and good information but I am never quite sure who the target audience is.

Many take it immediately before attending the Precision Rifle class. That seem like a bad time to take the class because you have very little time to change anything about your equipment or setup.

On the other hand if you take it far enough ahead that you can make changes, I didn't really find I could take away a lot of actionable items that I could change before the class.

It was great to make you aware of issues and some general education but I think it needs refinement. Of course that class was very different each time I took it so perhaps it is work in progress.

Last edited by AAShooter; 11-16-2020 at 1:35 PM..
  #12467  
Old 11-17-2020, 6:05 AM
NorthBay Shooter NorthBay Shooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 672
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Heading back in late December for a 2-day Skill Builder. Have previously taken the 2-day and 4-day DHG. Used Berettas both times (92FS, M9A1). Recently picked up an XD9 deciding what to take next time. I love way the Beretas feel in my hand, have done the decocker only and hammer spring mods, but am consistently more accurate with the XD9.

Part of me really wants the challenge of earning the G or DG with the Beretta (feel like it would warrant extra bragging points, especially since I got razzed both times by the staff for being the only person in class with a Beretta). Another part of me just wants to take the XD9 since I'm more consistent with it.
Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.
  #12468  
Old 11-17-2020, 6:14 AM
beanz2's Avatar
beanz2 beanz2 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,843
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Agree, AAShooter. I think PRF is mainly geared toward the Precision Rifle folks. By having a full day dedicated to the theory aspects, which in Precision there is a lot, FS saved a lot of class time by having everyone take PRF first.

For people who can’t remember classroom theory until they see it in action, taking Precision the next 4 days is very rewarding.

But, yes, the equipment lecture is not useful for those taking Precision the following day, though the knowledge is solid for the next time. Imagine being told you needed a mounted scope level and even the Armory doesn’t have one. I can see why people would take it separately from Precision.

I’m glad FS has this crazy business model they do. If they had a pay-as-you-go model like Gunsite or Sig Academy, I probably would be kicking myself if I had forgotten and left out a small detail like a scope leveler, the wrong bipod feet, or having the wrong kind of ammo.

Threads like this one helps a lot of folks get the right stuff the first time. You probably won’t find one like it for the other schools.

.
__________________

The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
  #12469  
Old 11-17-2020, 6:17 AM
XDJYo XDJYo is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NorCal-East Bay
Posts: 5,942
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.
I think part of that journey in training with the XD9 might be a change in the nightstand gun. I know it would be with me.

The proof is in the target. How often and how many can you get in the target? How quickly can you do so?

Anyways, just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation and CA tax rate.
__________________
Les Baer 1911: Premier II w/1.5" Guarantee, Blued, No FCS, Combat Rear, F/O Front, Checkered MSH & SA Professional Double Diamond Grips
Springfield Armory XD-45 4" Service Model
Springfield Armory XD9 4" Service Model (wifes).
M&P 15 (Mine)
  #12470  
Old 11-17-2020, 6:51 AM
Vinnie Boombatz's Avatar
Vinnie Boombatz Vinnie Boombatz is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 3,039
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.
The M9A1 was the nightstand gun because at the time it was my only firearm with a rail for a light (besides the 590A1 that also has a light on it). Jus picked up the XD9 and have a light for it, but haven't had it to the range yet and made sure it cycles hollow points without a problem. I've just dry firing at home and practicing with a G-Sight ELMS laser round. I'll probably take the XD9 to Front Sight for the skill builder class and put it through it's paces. If I like it and I do well with it I'll probably replace the Beretta with it as the nightstand gun. I hate to admit it, although it's just been dry firing and practicing at home I'm more consistent and accurate with the XD9 so far. Still love mt Berettas (also have a 92FS) and would still keep practicing and dialing in that DA/DA trigger pull.
__________________

Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 11-17-2020 at 6:55 AM..
  #12471  
Old 11-21-2020, 7:36 AM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Not much to report about the rest of my training. The entire place was packed. There was a bunch of families. Kids all over the place. Some kind of program. They ran around yelling Battle Buddies. Looked like fun.

I still can't shoot well enough to DG the class. There was one new thing at the rifle inspection. Instead of pulling the trigger with the meter They have actual 4 lbs. of weight on a metal rod. It has a roller on the trigger end. They just stand your rifle upright on the butt stock and let the weights hang. If it doesn't trip you are good to go. Mine tripped at first. I think when he picked it up he kind of shook the rifle. He was more exact on the next two attempts. I have an adjustable elftmann trigger set at 4.2 oz.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...-prod9710.aspx

I really didn't care for the Constitutional lecture. I hope that doesn't sound un-American or not patriotic. I don't think it was a usual lecture. There was another guy there and they joined some kind of webcast or something. I left early. I did try the BBQ pulled pork sandwich. Just adequate.

I met Brad Akerman. He was there as well. My son always jokes that he isn't real. He is like an actor or something. So that was proof for him.
  #12472  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:09 AM
DRM6000's Avatar
DRM6000 DRM6000 is offline
Junior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,973
iTrader: 50 / 100%
Default

I finished a four-day rifle marksmanship class on Thursday. A buddy and I both took it for the first time. He wanted to take it and I did it just because I've never done it and having an excuse to get away and go to FS is never a bad thing.

This course is an entry-level rifle class like the practical rifle course, but with a different purpose - to learn to hit small targets. This course is great for the person who might hunt and for those who want to gain marksmanship skills. It is also the gatekeeper to the precision rifle course. I think that the test is more challenging than the the one in practical rifle.

Our instructors were:

Josh Skoog (RM)
Ben Reynolds
Kevin Colton(?)
Frank...err...something (he's one of the three Precision Rifle instructors if you know him)

We had a mix of students from those who never shot a rifle to experienced shooters. On day one we had 40 or so students including a few that were two-dayers. By day four, we were down to 22 or so.

For those who have taken the entry-level courses will find the first two days boring as usual. They go over safety, the anatomy and operation of a rifle, the basic principles of marksmanship and shooting platforms. The majority of the learning and drills were conducted on those two days. Those days were the busiest.

Day three is when things picked up a bit, but the pace slowed down. Most of the day was spent gathering data. We shot to measure bullet drop at various distances from 35 yds to 350 yds. I think the target sizes from 35-100 yds were 3, 4, and 5 inch circles and the targets from 150-350 6, 8, and 9 inch circles. We were given lessons on holdovers and using our reticles and reading the wind. We were not allowed to dial for windage and elevations in this course.

At 35 and 50 yds, shots were offhand only. Sling support allowed.
At 75 and 100, unsupported shooting platforms were allowed. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, and whatever was allowed as long at no artificial rests (e.g. bipods, bags) were used and no part of the rifle touched the ground. Sling support allowed.
From 150-350 any platform or support was allowed.

On day four, we confirmed zero and practiced shooting from 35 through 350 using holdovers. After lunch, I think we got another shot at 350. The test was run after that. We ran two relays and that seemed to consume most of the afternoon. There was an exercise after that, then the class close-out stuff.

Skoog described the course as somewhere between the practical rifle and precision rifle courses. On one end the spectrum, the ARs work great at the closer shooting distances and not so good at the longer distances (remember, we're shooting at smaller targets.) The heavier precision rifles would have a challenging time with offhand shooting at the close distances, but would excel at the further distances. An example of an ideal rifle for the course would be a Ruger American in .308Win or 6.5 Creedmoor.

I thought the AR shooter was not at a particular disadvantage, but shooter skill and sight/optic choices were the limiting factors in our class. Some students were novices with rifles and/or had optics that are more suited for shooting CQB or at larger targets. They would have had a much better time in practical rifle. Some guys with ARs equipped with magnified optics did much better with at least one guy who did better than most.

The guy with the bolt-action rifles shot much better in terms of accuracy. Some of them appeared to have challenges with the offhand and unsupported positions. My buddy and I ran bolt guns. With a 17lb. rifle, I ran the heaviest one in the class. I received a bunch of comments about it. I had my doubts initially and found it challenging, but the rifle felt lighter to me as I got used to it and made adjustments in running it (instructor Frank gave me a super useful tip that saved me). It became normal for me.

IMO, whatever rifle you use, make sure you have quality, accurate ammo. There were students with rifles that were more than adequate for the course, but were using ammo that didn't maximize their rifles' capabilities. But, if you can shoot good with standard ammo, then you're probably better than most.

From my observations at the end, we ended up with:

5 DG
2 G
A bunch of CA

(Out of 18 points)
DG is -0 to -4 points
G is -5 to -7 points
CA is -8 and lower

Rifles of the class top achievers (bolt guns represented well):

Of the DGs:

Rem 700 LTR in .223Rem
Rem 700 PSS in .308Win
Custom 17lb Rem 700 in .308Win
Savage BA Stealth in 6.5CM
Unknown

The Gs:

Rem 700 PSS in .308Win
AR (caliber unknown)

My buddy and I both got DGs. He's new to this type of shooting and shot a new rifle he put together a few days before the class. Apparently he is a quick-study and a talented shooter. He didn't beat me. He probably will next time though.

Interestingly, we were at the far end of the line with three other four-day students by luck and we racked up most of the silver stickers.

Overall, I think it was a useful class for students who want to run a rifle for other than defensive or tactical purposes and to increase their marksmanship skills. I don't particularly care to repeat this class since I didn't find it challenging enough. If I take it again, I'd do it with a rifle that would make it challenging.
  #12473  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:31 PM
beanz2's Avatar
beanz2 beanz2 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,843
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Congratulations, DRM6000. Frank Shinault? He was instructing Precision for my class. Skoog was also my Marksmanship rangemaster. Amazing you can shoot well standing unsupported with a 17 lb rifle!

Unfortunately with the current ammo shortage, many students will opt for cheaper ammo. I don’t blame them a bit.

.
__________________

The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
  #12474  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:46 PM
DRM6000's Avatar
DRM6000 DRM6000 is offline
Junior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,973
iTrader: 50 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Congratulations, DRM6000. Frank Shinault? He was instructing Precision for my class. Skoog was also my Marksmanship rangemaster. Amazing you can shoot well standing unsupported with a 17 lb rifle!

Unfortunately with the current ammo shortage, many students will opt for cheaper ammo. I don’t blame them a bit.

.
That's it! Shinault. Thanks for filling in the blank.

I didn't shoot very well standing at all. I think it was luck I got hits on the test.
  #12475  
Old 11-21-2020, 2:06 PM
cjbruin cjbruin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 74
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Did Advanced Tactical Handgun on Wed-Thu. Great team, headed by TJ Wilson alongside Larry Barajas, High-Energy TJ Rotherham, Frank Molthen & Aaron Taylor. Overall, I really enjoyed it and look forward to them refining the class so there isn't as much waiting around for classmates to finish scenarios. Part of the problem is the lack of staff due to losses from Covid (fortunately not infections, just instructors not wanting to return or took other jobs).

The guys did a great job of placing you under stress during exercises...though it made me laugh as much as anything. One thing I definitely learned is never ever try to save a baby
  #12476  
Old 11-21-2020, 5:55 PM
beanz2's Avatar
beanz2 beanz2 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,843
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbruin View Post
Did Advanced Tactical Handgun on Wed-Thu. Great team, headed by TJ Wilson alongside Larry Barajas, High-Energy TJ Rotherham, Frank Molthen & Aaron Taylor. Overall, I really enjoyed it and look forward to them refining the class so there isn't as much waiting around for classmates to finish scenarios. Part of the problem is the lack of staff due to losses from Covid (fortunately not infections, just instructors not wanting to return or took other jobs).

The guys did a great job of placing you under stress during exercises...though it made me laugh as much as anything. One thing I definitely learned is never ever try to save a baby
That TJ Wilson is one talented young man!

Yes, once you get the baby, the correct step would be to get the hell out Dodge . But going hunting for the bad guys after you put the baby just outside the front door sure is fun

Who says the baby's twin sister was not left in the house?

.
__________________

The wife will be pissed, but Jesus always forgives.
  #12477  
Old 11-22-2020, 6:55 AM
TeamAllen TeamAllen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southern OC
Posts: 755
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Great write up and congratulations on the DG.
What was the super helpful tip, Frank gave you, that saved you?
  #12478  
Old 11-22-2020, 8:49 AM
cjbruin cjbruin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 74
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
That TJ Wilson is one talented young man!

Yes, once you get the baby, the correct step would be to get the hell out Dodge . But going hunting for the bad guys after you put the baby just outside the front door sure is fun

Who says the baby's twin sister was not left in the house?

.
Ha! Fortunately, I wasn't that stupid. Don't want to give the scenarios away but suffice it to say that my snafus were completely avoidable.
  #12479  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:48 AM
DRM6000's Avatar
DRM6000 DRM6000 is offline
Junior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,973
iTrader: 50 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
Great write up and congratulations on the DG.
What was the super helpful tip, Frank gave you, that saved you?
To let the air out of my lungs while shooting offhand. It made the crosshairs move a whole lot less. There seemed to be momentary pauses in movement when I could get a press in. Before that, I think all my hits were everywhere but in the circle. I didn't think I had a chance.
  #12480  
Old 11-23-2020, 4:52 PM
Paseclipse's Avatar
Paseclipse Paseclipse is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: So Cal.
Posts: 1,246
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Good write-up for Rifle Marksmanship DRM!

What worked for me in that course was the use of a sling, good quality ammo, and using a bag and bipod combo for 150+ yards. Scoped out AR's are more than capable for that course IF the wind is calm.
__________________
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:36 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy