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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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#1
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Grand Master in one venue doesn't always transfer to another
I've noticed (to include myself) those that might be "Masters" in one kind of competitive shooting game only to just be just better than average when they try out another.
I noticed that happen again last weekend at the GSSF match when a known multi USPSA Grand Master competed as an Amateur (probably expecting easy pistol prize wins) to leave home empty handed, and with times no where remotely threatening GSSF designated Masters. The Main difference in the course of fire is starting from low ready verses from a holster. All that practice running around, clearing, reloading, etc.... is for not. I'm sure he'll practice to dominate in the future (if he is so inclined), but I noticed this of myself as well. If the game isn't the game I practice and shoot the most, I have no expectations of similar performance.
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Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#2
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That's not really surprising. All the shooting sports have little things that make a big difference - shot placement is only one component. They are after all, games. Plus add in procedural errors, which can be easy mistakes to make when one game has different rules than another.
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#3
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Also that GM is a big fat liar as rule 170.3 in the GSSF rule book states that a Master or higher in another organization can NOT compete in Amateur division. So perhaps good ol' karma settled in.
Kinda shady to pull that whole "stealing candy from a baby" move at a largely amateur competition. As if a GM has a desire or need for a gen 3 Glock haaha. GSSF has put together a really good match that truely does accept and challenge shooters of all ages and skill levels. Check out the stats and it's surprising to see how effective their courses are at leveling. I have USPSA friends that show their ignorance and scoff at the GSSF match because it's barely 100rnds of static shooting. I think they know they'll be humbled and are afraid. Then they talk about the prizes, and I say I've won WAY more with GSSF than I have with USPSA, and then mention that GSSF has costed me many thousands of dollars less than USPSA too...then they stop talking and change the subject haaha. Last edited by Dooder; 08-28-2020 at 1:53 PM.. |
#5
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Every venue has it's "Pecking" order. Running around with IPSC and IDPA has it's macho factor but Steel Challenge and GSSF are pretty much on par (static and set course of fire).
Yes, a division in GSSF is only 81 rounds, but one can shoot 8+ divisions for 600+ rounds for the event. The guy in question did actually win an amateur division, but there wasn't enough entries to grant a pistol win. As you say, Karma. I like GSSF not only for the prizes, but that local big man on campus is minimized. Each range really only gets one a year, and it attracts folks from all over the place (so the local alpha dogs have competition). There aren't squads, and competitors shoot both days. So there is essentially NO WAY of telling just where your times might fall into the mix. I honestly am attracted by the prizes. I wish I could get to more, or that a local range would host "outlaw (non sanctioned)" matches with the GSSF course of fire (for the sake of practice). To actually WIN as a MASTER Division in GSSF says something as much as any other pistol shooting sport. Those who win GSSF Match Meister overall best are top of the food chain pistol shooters elsewhere. So I don't see how USPSA shooters can talk down GSSF. Quote:
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Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#6
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One thing I haven't tried out is the indoor GSSF league. There's one range down here that does or did it but there's no way I could make it with the LA traffic. The prizes are cool, I try to get as many people as I can to join in. The reactions are weird, they don't get interested in the shooting part of it. What gets their attention is the prizes haaha. But I say to go, and besides a great shooting and learning experience, they may win by just showing up. I tell them my story (which is true) where I won the raffle pistol at the first GSSF match I went to. Good for you by showing up and seeing that it is a good match. Keep at it man. There used to be two a year down here. I had friends that would do the two down here then travel to the desert match and then up north for the one up there. 4 fun matches a year and 4 chances to win gear. That's pretty awesome. |
#7
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Yeah, if this guy is a legit USPSA GM GSSF will automatically bump him to MA.
And yeah, a lot of USPSA & IDPA shooters get burned because they shoot too fast and don't realize the penalties for bad hits are worse in GSSF. |
#8
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I shot against him in another match and the results disclosed his member number so you can see his classifier qualification. I wont benefit from him getting bumped so I really don't have a stake in it.
__________________
Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#9
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If his scores left everyone in the dust then they'd question him. One time a GSSF dude contact me to verify my standing in other clubs. I told him I've got 3 B's and 1 C on my USPSA report card haaha. I offered him my USPSA number so he can verify and he said it was alright.
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#10
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GSSf is a shooting discipline? I went to a GSSF match once, not knowing what to expect. I'd rather stand around in the sun wearing full battle rattle watching paint dry before I'd ever shoot another GSSF match. For the record, I shot well enough to have won some cash... I can't remember in the GSSF system how I was ranked, In IDPA at the time I think I was a SS.
I think the GSSF system is a great way for people to go out and experience their first shooting match. It's a great way for Glock handgun division to build of history of being a "sport shooting firearm" for possible litigation defense in the future but I personally find the GSSF match to be the epitome of that old military phrase; hurry up stand, stand in line. The non human silhouette targets are too politically correct for me but then again, the primary reason Glock spends the $$$ on the GSSF program is political / legal.
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 08-29-2020 at 2:00 AM.. |
#11
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Then GSSF attracts among the best shooters in the region. I got a great ego boost when I found out the guy I lost to was a rostered S&W team shooter. The difference is, as you point out, GSSF is a for profit manufacture sponsored venue and marketing program, and IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge are non profit regulating bodies without a stake in the sales of shooting sports equipment and firearms. Anyway............ I was just pointing out a multi ranked GM didn't prepare him to shoot a beginner level entry event where marksmanship is more of the focus.
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Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. Last edited by Snoopy47; 08-29-2020 at 1:36 PM.. |
#12
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#13
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It's great that Glock sponsors or has these matches for the shooting public. When you have a manufacturer that puts big money into matches and prizes it brings out more people. Some years back Smith & Wesson very heavily sponsored the International Revolver Championship in the years leading up to Jerry Miculeks 20th consecutive win. If you finished in the middle of the pack your prize package was worth quite a bit. Each winner received $1000,2nd and 3rd afew hundred. Every junior got a new gun. Many other good prizes. One guy who had never shot a match joined ICORE at the match and won a new gun. Understandably S &W have not continued to support the match at the same level but it sure brought in more shooters.
The glock matches look like fun but I'm just not a Glock shooter. Had to carry first a Sig 226 and then a Glock as a correctional officer and just never liked the Glock. I primarily shoot 1911s in USPSA single stack and recently CZ tac sport in limited. It's great to see shooters find some type of competition or several of them to enjoy. |
#14
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The same applies in the other direction. I have shot with top GSSF shooters in USPSA and IDPA and they were mid pack at best.
Glock wont as a rule allow any USPSA Master or GM to compete in the Amatuer division. They also have a habit of tell Masters and GM after they win several Glocks they arent welcome to shoot the GSSF matches anymore. |
#15
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I've not heard that and have not experienced that being a GSSF M. I know a couple other M's that have not experienced that either. I see Taran at GSSF who we all know wins while blindfolded and hoping on one leg. He has collected an a**load of prizes and still shoots GSSF. Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
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Man, this place has gone bonkers. |
#18
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What happens is when one wins three performance pistol prizes as an Amateur they are bumped up to Master in GSSF (regardless of skill, yes one can get lucky in a division with weak competition and win with a pretty low score when a time half that might not win in another). Then going forward one can continue to win pistols as a Master, but only up against other masters, and the rules state for a pistol to be awarded there needs to be 10 entries in the division. So a pistol is only awarded when there are 10 MASTERS in the division. Now, once a master in GSSF pistol performance prizes are distributed in a share the wealth manner. So for example, at the most recent Richmond match John Bagakis straight up won FOUR master divisions as well as being the FASTEST over all. This would otherwise be FIVE pistols to him. But he will only get ONE pistol for being fastest over all, and then next fastest in each Division that hasn't already won a pistol will be awarded the Pistol, and John B. will get $100 for the win. So he will clear a Pistol, and $400 cash. Amateurs can win their three pistol limit at a singular event. So an amateur with 3 wins in one match gets his three pistols, and then is bumped up to Master in the remainder of the divisions he entered. At Richmond last week there will be FIFTEEN pistol prizes awarded for performance between amateurs and masters. One guy will get TWO. Additionally, there were enough entries to add 9 random pistol prizes and $3,150 in $50 awards or membership extensions. *********** Unrelated........... a match back east had the guy that placed SIXTH!!!!! PLACE earn the pistol award because the FIVE before him already got theirs. *********** Honestly, without this I'd be playing with my 1911's in some sort of other venue in the Single Stack Division.
__________________
Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#19
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__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
#20
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My friends and family disavow all knowledge of my existence, let alone my opinions. |
#21
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So bring your limited or open build to unlimited division and your stock gun to stock division. Other divisions call for stock pistols. It's not like a chrono stage where everyone gets checked. But if your rig is obviously tricked out the the RO can reclassify you. Just like USPSA where you get reclassified into open for having gear thats not legal in the division you registered for. Also just because someone is a GM doesn't mean they shoot a ray gun/race gun. Remember the alien Dave Sevigny? He's won USPSA nationals 13 times with out of the box, brand new Glocks...yea that dude was a mad man.
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Man, this place has gone bonkers. Last edited by Dooder; 08-31-2020 at 9:41 AM.. |
#22
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Just to share my $0.02...
The skill set for each shooting sport may have some overlaps, but there are also a few differences:
So, it is understandable that classifications in one sport may not seamlessly carry over to another... However, it is also reasonable to think that a GM will have a good foundation to excel in a different shooting sport. That said - at the GM-level, does a race gun really differ that much from using a stock one? Most GMs that I have met - are still way fast and accurate with stock guns... _ |
#23
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I have shot steel challenge and ICORE matches will have steel challenge type stages with multiple strings. Because they use standard stages in steel challenge it does allow shooters to track their improvement. USPSA will have a single standarized classifier stage at each monthly match but the rest are usually unique freestyle stages.
I enjoy trying to run around shooting USPSA stages as well as I can instead of a whole match of the same stages every match. At 67 eventually I may start shooting more matches with less movement. It would be interesting to shoot USPSA using a different scoring system. Not that it would change who wins but it would be interesting to see how shooters adjusted to the changes. |
#25
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Yeah. Actually, I started competition with SASS shooting black powder cartridge, not cap and ball. Then I got a 1911 and found IDPA while I was recovering from rotator cuff surgery. Shot that for a while then found USPSA and it quickly became my favorite. Also shot ICORE.
The big thing to me was just getting started in the first type of competition. Then as I got interested in other guns I realized there must be something I can compete in with the new gun because I found that the matches were a lot more fun then plinking at the range. Now here I am 20 years later having a great time, when I can get back to shooting. Now I shoot primarily USPSA with some outlaw matches occasionally. I need to get back out with the cowboy guns sometime, I do love shooting that black powder. |
#26
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I am a very good Smallbore Prone shooter. I picked up 2700 Bullseye pistol later. I am horrible at 2700 Bullseye pistol, only broken 800 once with the 45 ACP. And that is just wonderful. Screwing up in 2700 Bullseye pistol does not bother me as much as in Smallbore Prone. I expect to be perfect in Smallbore Prone, keeping all shots on the repair center is an achievement in Bullseye Pistol. I enjoy Bullseye more as the pressure and expectations are less, and I am less critical of myself. I can only get better.
It is great to be bad again. |
#27
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I disagree with the assessment. The rules only gave GSSF the latitude to make that call when there is no official classification, and there was a classification. Meh............. I wont bother next time.
__________________
Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#28
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That is different then how he was described as USPSA GM in multiple divisions and how all the running around and reloading didn't help in GSSF. There are a lot of PCC shooters who have never been GM or master in the handgun categories but are GM with the carbines.
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#29
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#30
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True that! I do know that John Bagakis is a top shooter although I've seen him shoot mostly in ICORE revolver matches. Shooters like him are usually great with every thing although they may concentrate in one discipline more then others.
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#31
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You guys are right, GSSF sucks, and you're smart to stay away...
Don't mind me, I'll just be over here talking to my Accountant about my 1099s.
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Chad C. Certified GLOCK Armorer NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, & RSO CA DOJ Firearm Safety Instructor My YouTube Channel Subscribe to my blog Check Out My Editorials At Guns.com Stand And Fight, Join the NRA! Last edited by RoundEye; 09-03-2020 at 3:05 PM.. |
#32
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***** The rules say Master+ classified in various venues to include USPSA, which he is. It doesn't say what Division. That's how it's written. I also didn't go after the fact he claims to be military/reserves but is sporting a Goatee and doesn't show up in the Dept of Defense global e-mail address book. Doesn't mean he's "not" but it sure is strange.
__________________
Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
#33
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That's still different then multi USPSA Grand Master expecting easy pistol win prizes, when he's classified that high with a rifle. This makes it sound like he's a GM in Limited, Open and Production for example. Only one is required but no need to exagerate.
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#34
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If he is an A class CO shooter, then he never made GM in any division.
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#35
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Bottom line is you could shoot GM rated classifiers in one division and then be rated M in the others even if you've never shot a M level classification in them. |
#38
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And no, skill set does not translate between rifle and pistol. So, basically your initial post was misleading.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#39
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LMOA... great meme...
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
#40
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The kid (18 years old now) seems to move around between different sets of rules and shooting systems pretty adroitly if you ask me. I couldn't be more proud of him and I enjoy watching him rack up the accomplishments, knowing the the time and money I invested in him early in his shooting career was so well spent. PS: When I went to my first and only GSSF competition I brought the kid and his dad with me... we all wanted to "check it out". I won some $$$ (100 or 150...cant remember) and he won a gun but because he was a minor at the time, Glock did not give him (or his father) the gun. That is one of the reasons I never went back to a GSSF match. The gun should have been presented to the minors parent IMHO as all the guns the kid was using were all DROS'd to dad anyway. He came in 9th overall out of 169 competitors, 1st USPSA Master class, shooting 91.8% of the 2020 National Champion Rob Latham.
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 09-07-2020 at 2:29 PM.. |
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