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  #1  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:07 PM
shaocaholica shaocaholica is offline
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Default Posting LCMs for sale is illegal?

Ok so its established that a plain reading of the law states that a non-exempt CA resident in legal possession of a LCM cannot advertise that LCM for sale even if intended for sale outside of CA.

However, what if a CA resident shipped their LCMs out of state for safe keeping by a 3rd party or even themselves and then advertised for sale those LCMs? Resident still residing in CA but selling LCMs no longer in CA?

That seems like it would be the easiest way to not have to destroy LCMs if the owner could no longer keep them for various reasons.
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  #2  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:27 PM
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Simple answer: CA can't charge you with a crime if the sale didn't occur in CA.

But why even entertain situations as complex as you're proposing? Is this a real issue, or are you just posting to post?
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  #3  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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Might be easier to just block them and sell them in CA. Unless you plan on selling for exceptional discount as free America can buy new ones relatively cheap to begin with....
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  #4  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:38 PM
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Maybe don't invite trouble by advertising such things online.
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  #5  
Old 04-11-2019, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
Simple answer: CA can't charge you with a crime if the sale didn't occur in CA.

But why even entertain situations as complex as you're proposing? Is this a real issue, or are you just posting to post?
I think it’s a real issue since they are not allowed to be transferred within CA but this thought experiment is just that. It’s not supposed to be ‘practical’. Just what’s possible within the law.
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Old 04-11-2019, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Ok so its established that a plain reading of the law states that a non-exempt CA resident in legal possession of a LCM cannot advertise that LCM for sale even if intended for sale outside of CA.

However, what if a CA resident shipped their LCMs out of state for safe keeping by a 3rd party or even themselves and then advertised for sale those LCMs? Resident still residing in CA but selling LCMs no longer in CA?

That seems like it would be the easiest way to not have to destroy LCMs if the owner could no longer keep them for various reasons.
That's why a plain reading of the law states you cannot give or lend LCM either.
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Old 04-11-2019, 4:05 PM
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You would have to have your friend list them for sale, from out of state, and ship them to the out of state buyer, from out of state.

The questions doesn't seem that wacky to me. I have a Universal .30 carbine rifle, and a small collection of USGI mags. Based on the prices I see mags sell for on the CMP forum, the value there, for the mags approaches the value of the rifle alone, here. I may sell the rifle and later move, then sell the mags, since I can't legally list them for sale from California.
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  #8  
Old 04-11-2019, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDave100 View Post
You would have to have your friend list them for sale, from out of state, and ship them to the out of state buyer, from out of state.

The questions doesn't seem that wacky to me. I have a Universal .30 carbine rifle, and a small collection of USGI mags. Based on the prices I see mags sell for on the CMP forum, the value there, for the mags approaches the value of the rifle alone, here. I may sell the rifle and later move, then sell the mags, since I can't legally list them for sale from California.
Why can't the CA resident list them for sale if they are already out of state? What if the CA resident owns a surplus store in another state? Still not exempt but the product isn't in CA.
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  #9  
Old 04-11-2019, 4:43 PM
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Completely legal for LCM's (low capacity magazines)
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  #10  
Old 04-11-2019, 7:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Why can't the CA resident list them for sale if they are already out of state? What if the CA resident owns a surplus store in another state? Still not exempt but the product isn't in CA.
because the law states as much.
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  #11  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Tungsten View Post
because the law states as much.
Ok ok, how about this. CA resident owns a gun store in the UK, advertises for sale LCMs in the UK. UK licensing obviously doesn't not exempt seller in CA.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Ok ok, how about this. CA resident owns a gun store in the UK, advertises for sale LCMs in the UK. UK licensing obviously doesn't not exempt seller in CA.
If using a UK based website, then it would be fine.
^Since this is in the UK and not CA.

If using a CA based website, then it would run afoul CA laws and may run afoul Federal laws (ITAR).
^Since this is in CA and CA laws prohibits a non-exempt person while in CA to advertise for sale large capacity magazines.
~Federal laws prohibits the sale/exportation of large capacity magazines to people in other countries, unless it is approved by the US State Department.

Under CA laws/regulations...
While you are in CA, in order to legally be able to advertise for sale and sell large capacity magazines to people outside of CA, you must have a valid CA DOJ large capacity magazine permit. [PC 32315]
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Last edited by Quiet; 04-11-2019 at 10:40 PM..
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:41 PM
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So can I sell my LCMs via gunbroker (located in Georgia) while I reside in CA and the mags are not in CA?
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Gunbroker isn't a CA based company is it? Can I sell my LCMs via gunbroker while I reside in CA but the mags are not in CA?
Is your account in CA?
If yes, then you can be charged for violating CA laws against advertising for sale & transferring large capacity magazines.
If no, then you can not be charged for violating CA laws against advertising for sale & transferring large capacity magazines.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Is your account located in CA?
If yes, then you can be charged for violating CA laws.
If no, then you can not be charged for violating CA laws.
Hmm that's a weird way to define things. You mean the address on file with GB? I mean if the LCMs are not with you in CA, then you're kind of just a broker.
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Hmm that's a weird way to define things. You mean the address on file with GB?
Yes.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:52 PM
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Remember, the intent of the CA large capacity magazine laws was to ban all transfers in CA (including advertisments), except for those persons that were licensed by the State.

This was done to correct the "loophole" in the Federal laws that still allowed the transfer of 11+ round magazines that were made before September 1994.


CA legislative intent circa 1999...
"This bill would make it a crime to do anything with detachable large capacity magazines after January 1, 2000 -except possess and personally use them- punishable as a misdemeanor/felony. One could still possess those magazines after January 1, 2000, but could generally only transfer them to anyone but a licensed dealer or gunsmith (for modification) if the magazine has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds."

So from the legislative intent... It would only be legal to possess them, use them, and transfer them to FFL dealers. Transfers to anyone else would not be legal, unless they were permanently modified into 10 or less round magazines.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:55 PM
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But the address on file with GB is just some arbitrary book keeping data in their system that's not in any way verified. It doesn't change the fact that I'm physically in CA or that the LCMs are not in CA. So it's illegal book keeping? It's just very strange concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
So from the legislative intent... It would only be legal to possess them, use them, and transfer them to FFL dealers. Transfers to anyone else would not be legal, unless they were permanently modified into 10 or less round magazines.
But while in CA right? I could fly out with my LCMs to a free state and I'm still technically a CA resident but while in the free state I could legally transfer the LCMs to anyone. I just figured that if the LCMs are not in CA anymore, that law doesn't apply even though a CA resident is brokering the sale. Does CA have jurisdiction over CA residents assets that reside outside of CA?

Last edited by shaocaholica; 04-11-2019 at 10:59 PM..
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
But while in CA right? I could fly out with my LCMs to a free state and I'm still technically a CA resident but while in the free state I could legally transfer the LCMs to anyone. I just figured that if the LCMs are not in CA anymore, that law doesn't apply even though a CA resident is brokering the sale.
While you are physically outside of CA, there are no CA laws that prohibits or restricts you from advertising for sale and transferring 11+ round magazines.
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2019, 4:59 AM
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Block dem, sell dem, no prob lem.
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  #21  
Old 04-12-2019, 6:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaocaholica View Post
Ok ok, how about this. CA resident owns a gun store in the UK, advertises for sale LCMs in the UK. UK licensing obviously doesn't not exempt seller in CA.
Odds are you 99.9% of people don't own a gun store in the UK, so this hypothetical is again, idiotic. I won't even go down the road of magazine legality in the UK. Again, most of these questions are so dumb I'm not sure if you're trolling with all these questions or not.

Go back to the Something Awful forums.
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Old 04-12-2019, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
That's why a plain reading of the law states you cannot give or lend LCM either.
HOWEVER, if you bought or sold during freedom week you are exempt and can continue to buy or sell. The permanent injunction applies to persons and businesses, NOT to the magazines themselves.

IT IS HEREBY FURTHER ORDERED that the permanent injunction
enjoining enforcement of California Penal Code § 32310 (a) and (b) shall remain in
effect for those persons and business entities who have manufactured, imported,
sold, or bought magazines able to hold more than 10 rounds between the entry of
this Court’s injunction on March 29, 2019 and 5:00 p.m., Friday, April 5, 2019.
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Old 04-12-2019, 7:12 PM
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Hypotheticals like this annoy me. Stop trying to find every point to be guilty on. INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Don't prove yourself guilty (stfu) and do what you believe is just. 99% of the time, that will also be legal. Unjust laws are meant to be ignored, especially if law enforcement doesn't give a **** (they don't care about your mags)
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Old 04-13-2019, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harambe View Post
Hypotheticals like this annoy me. Stop trying to find every point to be guilty on. INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Don't prove yourself guilty (stfu) and do what you believe is just. 99% of the time, that will also be legal. Unjust laws are meant to be ignored, especially if law enforcement doesn't give a **** (they don't care about your mags)
Pretty sure a lot of folk here have no idea how this one works. Im not suggesting compliance or non-compliance. Just the absurd reach it has if read plainly.

Last edited by shaocaholica; 04-13-2019 at 7:46 AM..
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Old 04-13-2019, 7:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
HOWEVER, if you bought or sold during freedom week you are exempt and can continue to buy or sell. The permanent injunction applies to persons and businesses, NOT to the magazines themselves.

IT IS HEREBY FURTHER ORDERED that the permanent injunction
enjoining enforcement of California Penal Code § 32310 (a) and (b) shall remain in
effect for those persons and business entities who have manufactured, imported,
sold, or bought magazines able to hold more than 10 rounds between the entry of
this Court’s injunction on March 29, 2019 and 5:00 p.m., Friday, April 5, 2019.


No no no. A thousand times no. This is nonsensical. The language is past tense. The window is closed.


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  #26  
Old 04-13-2019, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911RONIN View Post
No no no. A thousand times no. This is nonsensical. The language is past tense. The window is closed.


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To prove my point businesses are still shipping to persons as of today.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
To prove my point businesses are still shipping to persons as of today.
Understand that 32310 (a) and (b) criminalize the conduct of persons and entities "within" the state. The concern of commercial sellers outside the state should be not doing anything to get them charged with aiding and abetting or conspiring with persons within to commit a criminal act. If the acts of selling, buying, or importing magazines by persons and entities within the state was not a crime at the time, how out of state vendors be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy?

This ignores the question of what happens should a higher court uphold the constitutionality of 32301.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
To prove my point businesses are still shipping to persons as of today.
Shipping because they were already bought, so legal to own

Find me a business that is currently selling to CA. They can't because the window closed
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistice View Post
Shipping because they were already bought, so legal to own
The permanent injunction applies to persons and businesses, NOT to the magazines themselves.
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Old 04-16-2019, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
The permanent injunction applies to persons and businesses, NOT to the magazines themselves.


If you are not a lawyer or can’t cite a lawyer, then STFU! Your idiotic reading of the law is going cost someone their freedom and more.

Mods, can we ban this troll?


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Old 04-18-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911RONIN View Post
If you are not a lawyer or can’t cite a lawyer, then STFU! Your idiotic reading of the law is going cost someone their freedom and more.

Mods, can we ban this troll?


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Are you just retarded or something? Incapable of reading english? Are you in danger of self-harm? You seem like it.
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Old 04-18-2019, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
The permanent injunction applies to persons and businesses, NOT to the magazines themselves.
You have to read the first and third Orders of April 4 regarding subsections (a) and (b) of 32310 in together and in context with the rest of Order Staying In Part Judgment On Appeal. That contest makes clear the concern of the Judge with the protection of persons who acquired LCMs in reliance on his Judgment of March 29. Nothing suggests that Benitez intended to create a special class of persons and entities that were immune from prosecution for acts occurring well into the future.

If you bought a LCM between the time of judgment and 5 P.M. of April 5, and you think you can now buy and import more LCMs, go ahead and do it, But unless you have solid authority for what you preach, it is totally irresponsible of you to encourage others to do the same.

Just read the first and last paragraphs of the Order Staying In Part Judgment On Appeal. The first:
Quote:
On April 1, 2019, Defendant Xavier Becerra, in his official capacity as the Attorney General of the State of California, applied ex parte for an order, pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 62, staying the Judgment entered in this action on March 29, 2019, pending his appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. As part of a stay pending appeal, the Attorney General requests reinstatement of the preliminary injunction issued in 2017 enjoining his enforcement of Calif. Penal Code § 32310 (c) and (d). ]He also notes that the Court has discretion to tailor the stay to account for cases where residents have purchased large-capacity magazines since last Friday.
The last paragraph:
Quote:
Both parties indicate in briefing that persons and business entities in California may have manufactured, imported, sold, or bought magazines able to hold more than 10 rounds since the entry of this Court’s injunction on March 29, 2019 and in reliance on the injunction. Indeed, it is the reason that the Attorney General seeks urgent relief in the form of a stay pending appeal. Both parties suggest that it is appropriate to fashion protection for these law-abiding persons.
It is clear that the Court's intention was to tailor the stay to account for the purchases since Friday the 29th by law abiding people persons in reliance on the permanent injunction.
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I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.

Last edited by Chewy65; 04-18-2019 at 5:37 PM..
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2019, 7:32 PM
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Default Posting LCMs for sale is illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Political Californian View Post
Are you just retarded or something? Incapable of reading english? Are you in danger of self-harm? You seem like it.


What are you talking about??? Igs is stating that people can continue to buy or sell mags outside the Benitez window. Is this your position?

Wait, you’ve been on CG all of 6 minutes. I’ll defer to your expertise.


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Last edited by 1911RONIN; 04-18-2019 at 7:34 PM..
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  #34  
Old 04-18-2019, 7:39 PM
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It's a damn good thing that I've got a LCIL.

Large Capacity Ignore List.

I don't want to hear from some of you ever again.
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Old 04-18-2019, 7:46 PM
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Are you just retarded or something? Incapable of reading english? Are you in danger of self-harm? You seem like it.
Have you always been this surly? Or is this just something you’ve developed after a full month of membership here on Calguns?
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Old 04-20-2019, 8:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalGlock9 View Post
Completely legal for LCM's (low capacity magazines)
We really need to settle on one standard as far as our nomenclature is concerned.

I propose the following:

SCM (Standard Capacity Magazine) - the range of magazines that typically ship with a new firearm and/or around which the firearm was originally designed to be used.

LCM (Large Capacity Magazines) - higher capacity variants of magazines that wouldn’t typically ship with weapon, i.e. extended length or drum magazines.

URCM (Unconstitutionally Restricted Capacity Magazines) - magazines arbitrarily restricted by government overreach to a capacity below that for which the firearm was designed.
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