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Why did Elisha need a minstrel in order to prophesy?
Is there a spiritual connection between musical instruments, music, a prophet and God speaking or acting upon something? Does this occur with worship music today? Here is the scripture that leads me to ask....
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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Most definately a connection between worship music today that usually includes singing. In so called Full Gospel/Evangelical churches/fellowships this is very frequent .
Remember when David played his harp in King Saul's presence the " evil spirit from God " harassing Saul would leave for awhile ? Music can make powerful connections/differences in various situations. Yes I am of the Full Gospel Evangelical direction. See this from time to time in different meetings. Psalm 1 |
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
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Not a bible scholar here about to hit 3 years as a Christian so I’m fresh on the block!!
My perspective would be that prophetic words are subject to the prophet so depending on the positioning of the prophets heart will effect the prophetic word. When we play worship music to worship the Lord we must engage our heart to the Father thus realigning our heart if it is not in alignment or in position with God. So I view the minstrel almost as a heart tuning fork if you will. Prior to giving a word from the Lord he is making sure his heart is aligned with the Lord so that he doesn’t add words from a misdirected heart positioning. If some of you bible scholarly men or women think I’m way off by all means I totally could be. This is just my initial thoughts and feelings upon reading your message. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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(No. 1612)
Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, August 7th, 1881, by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington The text is a somewhat singular one, but I hope it will suggest a profitable idea. "But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him."- 2Ki 3:15 ELISHA needed that the Holy Spirit should come upon him to inspire him with prophetic utterances. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." We need that the hand of the Lord should be laid upon us, for we can never open our mouths in wisdom except we are under the divine touch. Now, the Spirit of God works according to his own will. "The wind bloweth where it listeth," and the Spirit of God operates as he chooseth. Elisha could not prophesy just when he liked; he must wait until the Spirit of God came upon him, and the Spirit of God could come or not even as he pleased. Elisha had noticed that the Spirit of God acted upon him most freely when his mind was restful and subdued. He found himself best prepared for the heavenly voice when the noise within his soul was hushed, and every disturbing emotion was quieted. Having ascertained this fact by observation he acted upon it. He could not create the wind of the Spirit, but he could set his sail to receive it, and he did so. At the particular time alluded to in the text Elisha had been greatly irritated by the sight of Jehoram, the king of Israel, the son of Ahab and Jezebel. In the true spirit of his old master, Elijah, the prophet let Jehoram know what he thought of him; and having delivered his soul, he very naturally felt agitated and distressed, and unfit to be the mouthpiece for the Spirit of God. He knew that the hand of the Lord would not rest upon him while he was in that state, and therefore he said, "Bring me a minstrel." The original Hebrew conveys the idea of a man accustomed to play upon the harp. Listening to the dulcet tones which were produced by a skilful harper, who very likely sang one of David's psalms to the music, the prophet waited awhile, and then the hand of the Lord came upon him. Under the influence of minstrelsy his mind grew quiet, his agitation subsided, his thoughts were collected, and the Spirit of God spake through him. It was a most commendable thing for him to use the means which he had found at other times helpful, though still his sole reliance was upon the hand of the Lord. It would seem from a passage in the First Book of Samuel that Elisha was not the only prophet who had found music helpful, for we read, "Thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy." Elisha, like his predecessors, only used a natural means for putting himself into readiness for receiving supernatural help. Charles Spurgeon |
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The problem with worship music today is (1) musicians are often performing more in the flesh than while filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18-20), (2) so the music sounds just like the world's music when it should offend the world just as much as Christ does, as the Bible does (Ephesians 5:18-20; Colossians 3:16), and (3) the worshippers (and you can include the musicians) see the worship music as something that primarily feeds them / excites them / serves them / etc. when it's primary purpose is the praise God. *IF* we put praising God with the right heart attitude FIRST, then we are fed as a byproduct. IOW, everything we do is to the glory of God first and foremost, even if it doesn't excite us, serve us, etc. The comment I make most at the beginning of our worship services is to ask everyone to take a moment to put off / put aside everything else in their lives that they were carrying around with them and JUST focus this time of worship on glorifying God the Father through Jesus Christ. And, I pray that every part of our service - music, Scripture reading, Sermon, etc. is ALL glorifying to God in its entirety - and that none of it is held back by us for our benefit. We need to give it ALL to Him. What happens then is that the Lord gives us back blessing in return. Not emotional rah-rah feelings, but lives focused entirely on Him knowing the fullness of joy and peace and love in Christ. Our music leader / pianist suddenly passed away just over a year ago and I had to take over her ministry (picking music / playing piano) in addition to doing mine. This was something I had to work with our keyboard player on and he eventually left the team as he wasn't putting himself aside. I've found over the decades that there is a lot of phenomenal music (sounds) available, but not a lot of phenomenal lyrics (lots of 7-11 songs!). I pick music by the lyrics first (per Ephesians 5:18-20; Colossians 3:16) and the tune second. So, guess what we sing mostly? Yep - hymns from the hymn book. After that, older conservative Christian music. Then, some of the songs of today (like some of Getty's music).
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew Last edited by RAMCLAP; 08-08-2018 at 11:03 AM.. |
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On the way to the temple. Not in the Temple.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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And you responded well.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
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Or the weight upon Horatio Spafford when he penned "It is well" Quote:
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God bless,
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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And, my daughter-in-law is singing "It is well" during our time of giving this coming Sunday! Another favorite. Be sure you know the story behind the writing of that song - amazing.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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A Mighty Fortress is our God is filled with the Theology of Christianity. Contemporary Christian and Praise music is as devoid of theology and depth as the culture at large. It is in my opinion disrespectful toward God and is in fact a violation of the 2nd Commandment. It makes Evangelical Christianity look lame and stupid to the outside culture.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew Last edited by RAMCLAP; 08-11-2018 at 9:15 AM.. |
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I think every generation plays music that speaks to their era, and the lyrics are typically straight out of the bible, not of all modern worship songs, but most that enter the church building. I am pretty sure the early hymns musical style was not set apart from the world but sounded like the "worlds music", but introduce the lyrics and you have "Godly music" Music is just music without the lyrics. I am pretty sure when David was playing and banging cymbals that similar music happens today. Take these popular lyrics from a modern day song, do these sound like there of the world? Quote:
Does the world know who the slain lamb is? Does the world accept that every knee will bow down? Who is able to stop he LORD almighty?
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; |
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Please be specific, I am at a loss as to what you are talking about. As far as Christianity looking lame and stoopid to outside culture, that has always been the case, its not like anything new is happening. The sick will come to the healer, those who view themselves as well will call anything Christianity as lame and stoopid.
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; |
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As I wrote, there's a lot of phenomenal music today (the tune), but the first priority is God-honoring words = theologically sound words. That doesn't rule out all of today's music. I used Getty as an example. I think that the ultimate test is when a mature Christian evaluates the worship they see God please the most, man blessed as a by-product, and no one exalting themselves or the music itself. If hearts and minds, filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18) prepare and perform and praise with the music, Christ will be pleased. And, not all churches / services have to be the same. I wouldn't expect a service to youth to have exactly the same music as a service to elderly. Nor services in Africa, Asia, Europe, South America, and even different regions of the US to sound the same! We have different styles of music and use different instruments (a pipe organ in a small village in Africa? Nope.). But, on the other hand, if I walk into a service with a rock band, light show, musicians attracting attention from their dress and performance, I'm going to suspect that they lyrics won't pass the test of theology and will watch to see if the worship will please the Lord or not. As a pastor, I have to make that decision every Sunday at our Church. I then also watch the rest of the service to see if the sermon is a solid, exegetical, expository, biblical sermon that edifies (vs. a rah-rah, emotional, self-help, conversation, etc.). After seeing the music, I'm going to suspect not, but I'll give it a chance. IOW, only by seeing and testing the whole service against Scripture can one determine if Christ is being honored in His church.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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colossians323 has it right
Is CCM of God or of the devil?
Bands, lights, new songs, worshiping lyrics, modern composers, keyboards, electric guitars. Is it of God or of the devil? It's one or the other. Quote:
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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The only incarnation of the Lion of Judah is Jesus of Nazareth.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
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Bring back Maat and the world will finally know true peace and no need for laws as the truth about themselves and the universe in which they live will be all they seek. |
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I would also assume that you would not have a worship band, again from your comments above it would be too distracting for the congregants to worship. Weird that 'rock band' seems to be a distraction, when what I think you meant was 'worship band' playing music you don't agree with. I have never been to a church and seen a 'rock band' playing but only having visited less than a hundred churches, that might be the issue
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; Last edited by colossians323; 08-23-2018 at 10:29 PM.. |
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Thanks for the insights on music. The post with 2 Kings 3:15 opened my eyes. As I understand it, music is to calm us, relieve us of distractions, which allows us to receive the Holy Spirit.
I attended a church in San Diego, but I could not get into the worship music. In my prior years, I had worked as a bartender where live music was played, and I got to watch and speak to a number of musicians. I was never impressed with their devotion to music. It seemed that music controlled their emotions, actions and entire way of life. Many of them lead corrupt lives of drugs and sex and music was a common denominator. In church, I noticed the musicians acting similarly. They conducted themselves as if music controlled them. I noticed that many of the musicians dressed and presented themselves so that they could not be overlooked. I also remember one girl who was a singer for a band, she was single and she became pregnant. I was also privy to another group of musicians who were involved in adultery and this charade continues to this day, and the lady involved in the adultery had the ear of the pastoral staff, and she maligned her husband terribly. I know this because I represented her husband in their divorce action and over the past 10 years he has become a good friend. His ex wife is very attractive, a good singer and she is still trying to destroy her ex husband’s reputation. I say all of this because music has never appealed to me.
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I think I was clear in my post. It's not "music you don't agree with." It's having to discern if the worship is of the world or pleasing to the Lord. As I wrote, there are many parts to a service of worship and you have to look at them all.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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Again, depends on how you define "worship band" and who the individuals are. I've seen some where the worship team was unsaved, and so they were certainly under Satan's control per Ephesians 2:2. I've seen some where the worship team's performance was in the flesh and not of the Spirit. And, I've seen some where the worship team was filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) and the music then was a result (Eph. 5:19-20). I won't generalize to "all" worship groups because I can't.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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What did you think this thread was about? Since you also avoided the question about sound equipment, does your church use sound equipment, even though it is a distraction. or do you contradict what you say about distractions?
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; Last edited by colossians323; 08-23-2018 at 10:24 PM.. |
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How about you post a YouTube video of a church that you would say is performing Satanic music, as well as a second video of a church that is playing true 'Pleasing to The Lord', Holy Spirit filled music? I'd like to see the difference between the two. As you said, you've seen worship teams who were unsaved and under satan's power. I'd like to see an example of that.
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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Sorry, watching videos is not the same as see the whole service in person - and even talking with people before and after. God bless and enjoy the worship you enjoy!
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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Interesting, not asking for a bite, looking for clarification based off of the conflicting posts you are making. Logic (a gift from God) should be used at this point.
IF your posts were not contradicting themselves no clarification would be needed. 1 Peter 3:15(NASB) 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; |
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What I learned from some in this thread. Your video is a distraction from God
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; |
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Obviously, some here are either not understanding or not accepting my answers in this thread. Please understand that Scripture doesn't always answer us the way we want to be answered. Let me make a few points off the top of my head and then let's move on.
First, sometimes Scripture is downright straightforward and obvious: Flee immorality (1 Cor. 6:18) is an example. There are direct commands to do or not to do! Second, God is immutable and has only one view on every subject. So, although there is only one interpretation per subject, there are many applications. Third, there isn't a lot in the New Testament about "worship." The biggest section is Ephesians 4:11-16 and is about the edification / building of the church by Pastors and Teachers. Ephesians 5:18-21 / Colossians 3:16 are parallel passages that speak of singing as a result of being filled with the Spirit and being richly indwelt with the Word of Christ. So, what we have to do is discern each worship situation with principles of Scripture. The Bible acts kind of like guard rails on a highway do - you bounce up against a principle and it constrains you to the righteous path. The best principle I ever learned about Worship was from Clayton Erb at Seminary (he's music director at Grace Community Church). He said that everyone who participates in worship (i.e. up front and in sound booths,etc.) should be a deacon / deaconess - meeting the full criteria of 1 Tim. 3. Those criteria teach that a deacon / deaconess need to be as spiritually qualified as elders. The difference is that elders must be able to teach and must be men. So, consider these thoughts and tomorrow morning put aside everything of the world and go to church with one thought - giving glory to God in every aspect of your worship. Sing to Him, listen to the Scripture reading for what it is - God's word being read back to Him, and listen/learn during the sermon as God intends - for His word to be glorified through teaching and applied in your life so that you become more like Christ and, thereby, glorify Him more and more in all you think and to (2 Cor. 3:18; Ephesians 4:7-11). And, you'll find that with this focus, He will bless you in return both during and after the service. God bless, Bill
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. - Ronald Reagan |
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