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  #1  
Old 03-09-2019, 12:11 PM
Surfdog Surfdog is offline
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Default **Update post #40** Intrafamilial transfer - DOJ requesting pictures?

I am transferring multiple firearms to my son through the Intra family transfer process. One of them is a featureless AR-15. He received a letter requesting pictures of both sides of the complete firearm, serial number, magazine release, and manufacture markings. Anyone else run into this with the family transfer? The AR-15 is the only firearm that they are asking for this information. I don’t believe this is a legal requirement. I have seen that a few people have pushed back on the VOL reg home builds with success.


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Last edited by Surfdog; 05-17-2019 at 2:07 PM.. Reason: Update on outcome
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  #2  
Old 03-09-2019, 12:57 PM
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I'm sure they just want to confirm it's featureless. But I would think the ffl would be able to determine that.
Just send the pictures, you should get a quick response.
Cheers.
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Old 03-09-2019, 1:00 PM
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^^^ Make damn sure it is featureless when you provide pics.
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Old 03-09-2019, 1:16 PM
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Pretty sure it doesn’t say pictures are required anywhere on the form. I would kindly write an email, that this is not an AW transfer and nowhere on the transfer form does it say that pictures are required. Sending more information than required is only asking for them find something wrong with it.
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Old 03-09-2019, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdog View Post
I am transferring multiple firearms to my son through the Intra family transfer process. One of them is a featureless AR-15. He received a letter requesting pictures of both sides of the complete firearm, serial number, magazine release, and manufacture markings. Anyone else run into this with the family transfer? The AR-15 is the only firearm that they are asking for this information. I don’t believe this is a legal requirement. I have seen that a few people have pushed back on the VOL reg home builds with success.


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Here we go again with overreaching BS from California DOJ.

Well I can’t find anything in the law and regulations that says anything about pictures.
Do what you want but I wouldn’t send them squat.

Eff them!

They have your $19 and the volunteer registration form.
You’re done.

So....So far we have California DOJ trying to bait and entrap people for:

AW Registration
Volreg
C&R registration
Intrafamilial transfer

...
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  #6  
Old 03-09-2019, 1:34 PM
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If there is no requirement for pictures in the code, and I don’t believe there is, I am not inclined to give them another inch... or picture. This is selective intrusion in my opinion. If no one chimes in that there is some new legal requirement that I am unaware of, then I will push back on this request.


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Old 03-09-2019, 4:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdog View Post
If there is no requirement for pictures in the code, and I don’t believe there is, I am not inclined to give them another inch... or picture. This is selective intrusion in my opinion. If no one chimes in that there is some new legal requirement that I am unaware of, then I will push back on this request.
I'd be inclined to agree with pushing back. Be polite, though I guess that's up to your son also. That said...

Some other things to consider as to why they may be asking:
Was the firearm in question built from a 80% style receiver by a non-licensed individual?
If it was purchased from a dealer, was the firearm transferred from the dealer as a bare receiver or a full firearm?


While it was perfectly legal to home-built your own 80% style receiver, serialize it, and then volreg it, and it's certainly legal to transfer bare receivers from a dealer, both of those things would in theory leave more doubt in the minds of CA DoJ of the legality of the firearm than if it was a whole firearm purchased from the dealer.

They're definitely fishing, but they're going to fish in ponds which -may- have some fish that they can catch.

Or, perhaps they pick non-standard (as in non-dealer) transfers at random to ask for pictures. We don't know CA DoJ's reasoning for how they pick which to ask for pictures, but I've been seeing threads/posts here talking about them asking for these much more frequently for all sorts of non-standard transfers across the board.
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Old 03-09-2019, 4:47 PM
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I didn't know we had to ask permission to give our property to our heirs.
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  #9  
Old 03-09-2019, 4:53 PM
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It was a dealer transferred stripped lower back around 2012? Built into a rifle at that time. I agree they are probably fishing for everything these days. My son is now 18 and I know he could not buy a stripped lower (even before the change of age from 18 to 21), as it could have been built into a pistol in theory. That being said, the family transfer allows a transfer of a hand gun to him at the age of 18, so I don’t see how the stripped lower would be any different by definition. It is the basic overreach that is at issue with the picture request.


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Old 03-09-2019, 6:47 PM
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1. Someone mentioned an FFL, but you are talking about an IF transfer from a a father who is a res of CA to a son who is a res of CA. I don't know about an AW, but otherwise the first issue is if the transfer was complete upon filing the OPLAW on line or by hardcopy.

2. If the transfer was done at time of filing, would you have any reason to voluntarily respond to the request for pictures?

You may want to contact a good firearms attorney.
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Old 03-09-2019, 7:07 PM
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My understanding was that once you fill out the paperwork (BOF 4544A) and send in with $19, you have effectively transferred the firearms. I don’t know if completion of the transaction requires an acknowledgment or approval from the CADOJ. My concern is the letter stating that they can not process the application until they receive the requested pictures. Does that mean just the featureless AR is in limbo, or all the firearms? Anyhow, I plan to contact them and ask where this request for pictures is dictated in the current law.




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  #12  
Old 03-09-2019, 8:07 PM
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I would tell them to F-off as well but prepare your family on what to do incase you get a visit from agents
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  #13  
Old 03-09-2019, 8:16 PM
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You do not need to send pics. Add a comment for them to provide the relevant PC where it states they need pics. I'm wondering if the system has a poorly written line of code that is flagging stuff (marked as semi?) improperly and sending out the outdated form asking for pics, the form that only pertains to the (now closed) AW registration stuff.
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Old 03-09-2019, 8:45 PM
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Tell them to pound sand.

"I have submitted a report in satisfaction of PC section 27875. There is no statutory or regulatory authorization for a requirement to submit photos to DOJ. DOJ has a statutory duty to enter the firearm in the AFS upon receipt of such a report. I have fulfilled my statutory requirements and intend to take no further action."
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Old 03-09-2019, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
Tell them to pound sand.

"I have submitted a report in satisfaction of PC section 27875. There is no statutory or regulatory authorization for a requirement to submit photos to DOJ. DOJ has a statutory duty to enter the firearm in the AFS upon receipt of such a report. I have fulfilled my statutory requirements and intend to take no further action."
This
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A lot of time and energy goes into thinking up ways to make perfectly good rifles into something dumb. Single shot ARs are gay. AR pistols are also gay. Just my opinion, of course, but a single shot AR pistol would be an AIDS cannon.
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Old 03-09-2019, 9:00 PM
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Equally firm but less attempted-legalease language: “The form was correct and complete as submitted.”
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Old 03-09-2019, 9:33 PM
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At the end of the day, if they don't want to enter it into AFS, so much the better for you. You have now complied with the law (the law just requires that you submit a report, which you did) and now have a firearm that isn't associated with you in AFS.
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Old 03-10-2019, 7:20 PM
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I had a similar letter sent to my son, we decided to send the images
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Old 03-11-2019, 7:23 AM
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I'd push back on sending pics.

If they hassle you about it and you don't want to continue, consider this approach.

What are you legally transferring? The stripped frame. Strip the firearm down to the frame, take pics of that and submit those. Then give the parts to your son.

However, I urge you to push back and not send any pics.
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Old 03-11-2019, 8:18 AM
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It's enough to make a person disregard the whole damn process....
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Old 03-11-2019, 8:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul_R View Post
It's enough to make a person disregard the whole damn process....
Exactly. The more onerous the law/rule/regulation the lower the rate of compliance.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2019, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_R View Post
It's enough to make a person disregard the whole damn process....
Yup...
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Old 03-11-2019, 2:58 PM
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Gun Grabbing Fishing Expedition of DOJ picture squad.

Has even spread to requiring pictures of Bolt Action Mausers.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1513671


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Old 03-11-2019, 9:41 PM
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So I got mine today. I'm genuinely concerned. since I'm 19, and if they want to strong arm me. that 10 years goodbye. Am i being paranoid or is fear justified?

Should i send the pics or and they didn't ask for configuration. i intended for them to be fixed mag, but should i do featureless? help is very appreciated.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlegion4 View Post
So I got mine today. I'm genuinely concerned. since I'm 19, and if they want to strong arm me. that 10 years goodbye. Am i being paranoid or is fear justified?

Should i send the pics or and they didn't ask for configuration. i intended for them to be fixed mag, but should i do featureless? help is very appreciated.
You'd have to tell us a little bit more... is it an AR-style firearm? An intrafamilial transfer? Just need the rough strokes on what you're talkng about here... not sure what you mean by "10 years goodbye"... if you could take some more time to write your post, we could perhaps understand it better (I suspect you're phone posting).

Anyhow, that's a decision for you to make. There's two ways one can respond:
1.) Comply: Don't worry about rather CA DoJ has the authority to ask or not; Send in the pictures as requested, and be on your way. However, if you do follow that route, you have to be double, no, triple sure that everything on your firearm is compliant with the law; ask a lawyer perhaps. Any pictures that you submit can be used as evidence of you breaking the law if your firearm is indeed not compliant. While typically CA DoJ has been merely confiscating firearms without charging crimes (as some have theorized it's so that they're on the defense if you try to sue to get your property back), if they want to charge you, they will.

2.) Don't Comply: Ask them (politely) to state where it says it's required that you submit photos of (I assume we're talking about a intrafamilial transfer). Doing this opens you up to less liability since you aren't submitting additional evidence, however CA DoJ may treat you with more scrutiny, and we don't know why they're asking you for pictures.

I'm more in the "Don't Comply" camp since, at least for these intrafamilial transfer registrations, I have yet to see any CA Penal Code (or CA Code of Regulations) that states that pictures are required, just like there's nothing in the CA Penal Code/Regulations that states that Proof of Address for the last Assault Weapon Registration expires (yet they kept asking people, and so far I've heard nothing bad from those who pushed back against that). By not submitting photos, you're also less likely to open yourself up for charges based on what you -thought- was legal, but actually wasn't legal (Perhaps your barrel is too short, perhaps your locking device isn't installed correctly, etc.)

However, others do comply with these extra-legal requests because they feel it's easier than being hassled by Law Enforcement.

Feel free to ask more questions.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlegion4 View Post
So I got mine today. I'm genuinely concerned. since I'm 19, and if they want to strong arm me. that 10 years goodbye. Am i being paranoid or is fear justified?

Should i send the pics or and they didn't ask for configuration. i intended for them to be fixed mag, but should i do featureless? help is very appreciated.
First relax and take a deep breath.
You’ve done nothing wrong.


First thing you need to do (and obviously you should already have done) is make 1000% sure all your firearms are California compliant.

There can be no question about it.

I recommend you do not send pictures to them.
There is no requirement for you to do so,and DOJ having photos of your firearms( that they do not have the right to ask for pictures of )can be used against you. And we now know from several other California gun owners that pics you send them absolutely WILL be used against you if they have any question of whether your firearm is legal in the state.

If not now- perhaps down the road.

Judging from what I’ve seen on these forums and elsewhere,if there is something they don’t like in the photos, even if they’re interpreting the photo incorrectly, you may have a DOJ visit to your home.

They will ask you if they can please see the firearm or firearms in question- that they just have to inspect them.
Once they are in DOJ hands they will be confiscated.

For the most part, people have not been charged, but that does not mean charges may not be filed in the future.

Why any gun owner would subject himself to this by submitting pictures is beyond me. It’s just not a smart thing to do.


You need to contact them and push back.

I quoted the wording below from one of the other threads. I changed “featureless” to “California compliant”.
It’s none of their business whether your rifle is featureless or fixed mag -only that it is California compliant.

"Concerning firearm serial number xxxxx This firearm is California compliant and does not require photographs per current regulations. Please provide the memorandum authorizing your picture request or justification based on current policy. Thank You. "

Or if you prefer a different wording you can look at other examples in the thread or even the thread that we are in right now has some examples.

Below is the link to the Volreg pushback thread if you would like to see other examples of the wording to send to them.

You can also see that at least in that thread-the push back’s were successful.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1488400


..
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2019, 7:07 PM
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So I talked this over with a couple of people. the majority say is to send DOJ an email asking why. a couple of reasons at least for me.
1. Nowhere in the PC does it say for pictures. ( i can cite the PC, which shows DOJ is not an idiot.)
2. All my rifles were purchased before 2016, so they should have all the information already. it's just going from my dad to me. literally not even leaving the same house.
3. if I do send photos, then it could show that people would be willing to bow to a dictator state, which would allow for more overreach. ( this is how freedom dies)

Thanks BeAuMan and LEAD LAUNCHER, for giving me a point to start.
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Old 03-12-2019, 8:07 PM
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I have discussed this with my son, and we do not plan to send pictures where there is no legal requirement. I don’t know if the DOJ’s request are technically “underground regulation”, but they certainly are outside of the written law. I’d like to think that enough pushback will end this practice from them, but I suspect only legal action will change this.


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  #29  
Old 03-13-2019, 2:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdog View Post
I have discussed this with my son, and we do not plan to send pictures where there is no legal requirement. I don’t know if the DOJ’s request are technically “underground regulation”, but they certainly are outside of the written law. I’d like to think that enough pushback will end this practice from them, but I suspect only legal action will change this.
It's a good question... OAL's Website suggests yes, it probably is an underground regulation, since it's a change in procedure. For me it's clear that, say, the Proof of Address Expiration thing I mentioned earlier for AW Reg is an underground regulation because it prevents progress until addressed, though in the case of intrafamilial transfers I'm not sure.

I've never filed an intrafamilial transfer; did you mail it in or file it on CFARS or? If on CFARS, does it have a "processing" status like AW Reg, where not responding their letter could prevent approval? or is it just submitted and you're done?

Either way though, keep in mind that the Underground Regulation process would require them to put their activity (asking people for photos after submitting forms) through the regulation making process (with public comment and all)... and whether they can officialize it into a regulation depends on how much leeway the penal code gives them into what they can require on various forms.

At least that's my take on it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 5:30 PM
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We filled out the paper form and mailed it in. I was planning on writing our response letter and sending it certified mail with a copy of their letter enclosed. Then we see how they respond...


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Old 03-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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I just received the same request for a S&W M&P 15-22. To my understanding a .22 does not need to be featureless as long as you have only a 10 round magazine correct?

Disregard my question, I called my local FFL and confirmed rimfire rifle does not need to be featureless. And my magazine is only 10 round capacity so no issues here.


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Old 03-22-2019, 4:23 PM
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We just got our confirmation letter, it took about 4 weeks after submitting pictures
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Old 03-22-2019, 4:34 PM
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I received 3 confirmation letters out of the 4 submitted back in November this week. The 4th being the M&P 15-22. I went ahead and sent the pictures requested since it is a stock rimfire rifle and completely California compliant. I received my email that it is being processed now and I will receive a confirmation by mail. I thought the online process was going to be faster but it still took 5 months to get confirmation letter.

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Old 03-23-2019, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdog View Post
I am transferring multiple firearms to my son through the Intra family transfer process. One of them is a featureless AR-15. He received a letter requesting pictures of both sides of the complete firearm, serial number, magazine release, and manufacture markings. Anyone else run into this with the family transfer? The AR-15 is the only firearm that they are asking for this information. I don’t believe this is a legal requirement. I have seen that a few people have pushed back on the VOL reg home builds with success.


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tell them to **** off
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:05 PM
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Old 03-28-2019, 7:27 PM
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I got the letter today asking for pictures. I'm sending it back with a response letter and no pictures. I guess I'll see what happens.

Anyone who has done this already gotten any response?
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Old 03-28-2019, 7:33 PM
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My letter requesting for pictures was for a MP 15-22 rimfire. Since the gun is completely California compliant I went ahead and uploaded the pictures requested and then received the email it was being processed. It seems the AR builds are the ones they are going after most so I was surprised they requested pictures for a .22

I figured since my rifle was completely complaint I just sent the pictures to move forward with the process. I know everyone says do not send pictures.

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Old 03-28-2019, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliTrav View Post
My letter requesting for pictures was for a MP 15-22 rimfire. Since the gun is completely California compliant I went ahead and uploaded the pictures requested and then received the email it was being processed. It seems the AR builds are the ones they are going after most so I was surprised they requested pictures for a .22

I figured since my rifle was completely complaint I just sent the pictures to move forward with the process. I know everyone says do not send pictures.

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The problem is that sending in the pictures reinforces with them that it is an appropriate process.

Better you should send in the section of the code indicating .22s are not AW (not centerfire) and mfg info stating the MP 15-22 is a rimfire .22.
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Old 03-28-2019, 8:04 PM
3dpguy 3dpguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTrav View Post
My letter requesting for pictures was for a MP 15-22 rimfire. Since the gun is completely California compliant I went ahead and uploaded the pictures requested and then received the email it was being processed. It seems the AR builds are the ones they are going after most so I was surprised they requested pictures for a .22

I figured since my rifle was completely complaint I just sent the pictures to move forward with the process. I know everyone says do not send pictures.
My AR is featureless, totally compliant. I just don't want to give the DOJ more information than I am required to.
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Old 03-28-2019, 8:04 PM
CaliTrav CaliTrav is offline
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
The problem is that sending in the pictures reinforces with them that it is an appropriate process.



Better you should send in the section of the code indicating .22s are not AW (not centerfire) and mfg info stating the MP 15-22 is a rimfire .22.
I see your point. I did send that response and did not get a reply back and ended up folding since I knew I was not doing anything illegal. I should have stood my grounds but after watching videos on YouTube of them coming to people's houses and checking and confiscating firearms I did not want to even deal with that.

But I do see your point.

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