|
Gunsmithing & How To Pro, Amateur & WECSOG and Tutorials, Guides & OLL Build Instructions |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
SAVAGE 10BA Stealth - scope zeroing problem / San Jose, Bay Area
Hello.
Need help / advise with scope mounting for SAVAGE 10BA Stealth. Bought brand new rifle back in August and mounted Athlon scope. Before going to range to zero it, i used red laser bore sight to get closer to zero. Right away i encountered problem: couldn't see laser in the scope at all. Turned elevation turret all the way up and laser dot moved up. At most upper position laser dot still under horizontal reticle line..... Reinstalled Vortex scope - same story. Both scope were fine on another rifles. So i removed scope and unscrewed rail. For some reasons front and back rail pads doesn't seat flush with receiver. If i tighten front screws, back pad has a gap approx 0.45". I can push rail and it would bend, so rail would touch receiver. After i installed scope with just front screws tightened (no back screws and with gap between rail and receiver), i got laser bore sight barely pass reticle horizontal line (at most top elevation turret position). I contacted SAVAGE back in September and they told me to ship rifle to them for evaluation. Shipped rifle and they replaced barrel. Send me back with test report which said they shot 0.8" at 100 yards.... I installed scope and encounter absolutely same problem: when using laser bore sight, can not get laser dot close to zero. After loosing back screws, rail has same gap - is this gap normal? Not sure if i doing something wrong, but i still wonder, how Savage managed to get 0.8" group at 100 yards when i can not zero scope.... Do they use any special test station that not require scope? Should i blame laser bore sight and still try zero at range? Any help / suggestions greatly appreciate. Would got to gunsmith in San Jose / Bay Area to troubleshoot this issue. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Initial mechanical gap problem is one of two choices. [1]...Crooked receiver. [2]...Crooked rail. My vote is [2].
Dismount rail and check receiver with straight edge. Then do same with rail. Your rings were "Made in China", is the rail also? Rail is made from an aluminum extrusion. Likely when they made the relief cut for ejection port. Internal stress relief of matl warped it during machining. Which type of "Laser" are you using? Down the bore from chamber? Or stuck in muzzle? Doesn't make sense that Savage would replace a brand new unfired barrel. Because customer has optic mounting problem unrelated to the firearm QC. Likely do test fires from a fixture that has optic mounted to the fixture, not the rifle. So they don't have to waste time screwing around, screwing and unscrewing bases, rings, and scopes for every test. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Is there a front and rear on that rail and have it mounted backwards? You know like a taper?
__________________
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
What brand scope rail is that.
I have 5.Savage rifles. Never a problem like that. I do have a BA Stealth. Athlon scope.fits.fine. I say it's the scope.mount.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Put a straight edge on your receiver and rail for starters, that will give you some idea of where your issue may be. I have two Model 12 Savage's and use separate front and rear bases on both, although not the same type. One is a standard base and the other a Weaver/Picatinny type, no issues with either one dialing in the scopes.
__________________
Bob B. (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
They mount the receiver in their test fire fixture and send a few rounds on target. Laser boresighters are dodgy at best. Set the gun in a solid rest and rotate the laser boresigther without disturbing the gun. If the laser dot draws a circle, it's not inline with the bore and that's a problem. I have had a laser boresighter brought over to my shop by a customer that would draw an 12" circle at about 10 FEET from the muzzle. Take this out to 100yds and you would have a 30 FOOT circle. What use would that be in aligning a scope reticle? Your bigger problem is the mount. You either have a faulty mount or the WRONG mount for your specific action. You could probably shim/bed the rear to fix it, but that's like using bondo to fix a fender instead of just replacing the fender. I would get a better mount that fits the reciever correctly as my FIRST STEP. After that, skip the laser all together and simply look down the bore with the rifle on a solid rest and adjust your reticle to align with the bore at around 50-75yds. This will get your bullets impacting within a few inches of point-of-aim at 100yds. From there, you can use the impacts on paper to fine adjust the reticle to match point of impact.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. Last edited by ar15barrels; 11-07-2020 at 9:38 AM.. |
#7
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
Thank you all for your feedback.
Quote:
Quote:
Receiver didn't align with ruler and ruler basically rocking. Regarding "made in China" sticker - unfortunately everything is made in china, including Athlon and Vortex scopes. I use "Vortex Optics Tactical 30mm Riflescope Rings": https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Quote:
Well. after i explained the problem to SAVAGE about issues with rail and scope. they asked me to send rifle for evaluation.... I kind of was happy that they would investigate receiver and rail. But after 2 weeks they told that they replacing new barrel, which i wasn't complaining about.... The only explanation i had that replacing barrel virtually fix for all problem for Savage... But i was really doubt that original barrel would cause such issue.... Regarding test - that what i thinking as well since issue stays and they didn't even mention any problem with rail / receiver gap. Quote:
Quote:
Also i have purchased EGW HD 20 MOA rail back in August and installed it. This 20 MOA rail improved red dot - moved it up. But still with elevation turret all the way up red dot was under horizontal reticle line any way... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, i took another scope Vortex with BURRIS P.E.P.R. QD mount that was working perfect on another rifle. This second scope with P.E.P.R. mount had exactly same issue on SAVAGE 10BA. Don't really want "Mickey-Mouse" scope by using shims. I think this will defeat the whole meaning of precise shooting. As alternate option some custom rail could fix scope position. But not sure who will be able to spend so much time to fix brand new rifle..... Also i assume that this fitting will come with price tag that should be justified as well.... Quote:
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Not sure what you mean original scope. That rifle does not come with a scope rail.
I use EGW scope rails on all.my rifles. Shows a pic with the EGW rail. Mounting a red dot on a scope rail with 20 MOA most likely won't adjust the 20MOA up to zero. They are not made with that much adjustment. You need to mount the 20MOA scope rail and the Athlon scope. Make sure the specs for that scope has at least 40MOA of adjustment. You will need to adjust 20MOA of adjustment in one direction to zero the scope close enough to the laser bore sight. I usually aim across the street at my neighbors wall. I adjust my vehicles so that I can hide in between them. Keep a large towel to cover up if someone walks by.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
If you are using the laser bore sight too close. Less than 50 yrs. Might be part of your problem.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry for confusion:
Quote:
Shows a pic with the EGW rail.[/QUOTE] I meant original picatinny rail that rifle come with..... (yes, SAVAGE 10BA Stealth comes with picatinny rail). https://www.savagearms.com/content?p...ummary&s=22847 Quote:
Quote:
I was sighting with laser bore sight approximately at 50 yards ...... |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
I look tomorrow to.see.if I have my original scope rail. I don't remember it coming with one.
I don't throw old ones away.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
What caliber is yours ? Curious.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
This is done so that there will not be any stress on the rail when it's tightened down. As you can see with your action and rail, if you tightened the front screws and then attempted to tighten the rear screws, you would be bending the rail down to meet the receiver. That puts a LOT of stress on the rail an will also cause the front and rear rings NOT to be aligned properly. I recommend you mix up some 2 part metal filled epoxy and use it to fill the gap so that your scope base is stress free. Put some mold release or shoe polish wax on the receiver's rear bridge and fully degrease the scope base so that the epoxy adheres to the scope base. Mix up the epoxy and place it on the underside of the base, leaving the screw holes clear. Set the base atop the reciever and install the front and rear screws all loosely at first. Tighten the front screws, making sure that the rear screws are NOT snug against the rail. You just want the rear screws in place so that the epoxy does not plug the screw holes. Once the excess epoxy squeezes out between the rail and receiver, wipe off the excess while it's wet. Once the epoxy cures, you will end up with a PAD of epoxy attached to the scope base that perfectly matches your reciever. Once the epoxy cures, remove the rail and carefully drill out the rear screw holes in the epoxy so that the screws can slide in freely and will only be threading into the reciever. Wipe off the shoe polish or mold release, clean any epoxy off the screws and install all 4 screws with blue loctite.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
Are you recommending bond or not. I'm not sure of the difference your making. Bed the scope mount vs bondo.
Quote:
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Mine is .223 Quote:
Ill try contact Savage first. Let see if they will figure out how to fix this..... 2nd option to find experienced person who will be able to mate rail and receiver.... |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Bedding is the 2nd step AFTER the FIRST STEP of getting a rail that fits correctly. I don't recommend to bond the base to the receiver. That's why you put mold release on the receiver. You only bond the bedding to the base. If space permits, you drill a few little holes on the underside of the base for the bedding to lock into.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
yep. send it back with the pics. put the scope rail back on and use some tape the mark the gap.
i found my original scope rail. part# on it 111492 used a straight edge. and its just like yours. put a straight edge on my rifle next to the scope rail. straight also. i dont see how they could fix that. the bad. if they replace the gun. you will have to go thru a FFL and re DROS because the serial number will be different. if they can replace the receiver and restamp the serial number. that would be great. if you have all your receipts. have it ready and ask for a full refund. Ruger could not fix my RPR in 556. they refunded all my money including shipping and DROS.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
That's the plan. Will try working with Savage first. |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Some might have the front and rear bridge at the same height, Others have the rear bridge lower like a 700. It sure seems like the scope base is for a different receiver than the OP has as that gap is HUGE. I would remove the action from the stock and see if the reciever is being bent by the stock/chassis. If the receiver magically goes to straight on top when the stock is removed, that's a sign that the action/stock bedding is bending the action. Savage is not going to find anything wrong with the reciever. It's a mount problem, not a receiver problem.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. Last edited by ar15barrels; 11-08-2020 at 12:06 PM.. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Just an update (if somebody still wondering what was wrong).
I contacted SAVAGE and sent rifle back. After few months they replaced it with brand new rifle. I removed back screws (front screws stays): result - no gap... Installed scope and bore laser sight and i was able to zero rifle..... Looks like problem solved (defective receiver). |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks for letting us know . Glad savage took care of you.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked. I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows. I'm Back. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|