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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-09-2018, 6:23 PM
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Default Daniel Defense Comes Out In Support of Fix NICS Act



Thoughts?
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Old 03-09-2018, 6:24 PM
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I agree 100% with him.
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Old 03-09-2018, 6:27 PM
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Works for me. There’s clearly been process holes when these nuts should have been flagged (like when the latest posted he wanted to be a school shooter and no one acted on it), and I don’t have a problem fixing those holes.

Those tweaks would be 1000x more effective than the ban the AR and raise the age to 21 nonsense.


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Old 03-09-2018, 9:24 PM
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Background checks do not prevent mass shootings.
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Old 03-10-2018, 4:35 AM
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Default Daniel Defense Comes Out In Support of Fix NICS Act

Yep, until here is another mass shooting. We would not be discussing this “had”our government officials “had” taken actions in the case of the last 4 of 5 shooting, except perhaps Paddock. Paddock case is still an open book, and who knows if there was another failure there. Hence, someone knew (the girl friend), but failed to act. Pure speculation on my part.

All for sensible steps, but have my doubts. Obama-era program that created PROMISE is still in enforce, unless of course the investigation occurring right now shows it was an “enabler” and needs to be dismantled. Then there is the FBI, and Broward County Sheriff’s office. The local police and the plethora of contacts. The mental health counselor and the assessment followed by a recommendation. Then there is their protocol on school shootings. Did they not learn from Columbine? Then there are the local school board, the superintendent, the principle, the school resource officer, perhaps students and parents who knew, but reluctantly did not act or pursue a call to action by the school and local police, too.

Makes me wonder if Mr. Pollack daughters who was killed ever mention the shooter to her parents and whether he knew of this kid? It was reported that the shooter and his strange/anti-social behavior was well-known and in fact when the shooting started, he was suspected by the students as the presumed shooter after it was over.

As long as this “social justice”, PC environment and every other leftists policies, narratives etc... are allowed to continue. These episodes at schools will not end. Look around and you can see and hear some of the nonsense that is being advanced and promoted as legitimate social policy for the betterment of society. No wonder kids are getting confused.

The larger question that needs to be asked is what has changed? Like many of you on this and other forums know. Many of us grow-up with guns, guns in trucks in school parking lots, brought guns to school etc.... and yet there were no school shootings or any real violence at least at the schools I attended.


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Old 03-10-2018, 5:17 AM
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Old 03-10-2018, 5:39 AM
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Background checks do not prevent mass shootings.
They certainly don't prevent all mass shootings. Nothing can or will.
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Old 03-10-2018, 6:02 AM
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2018, 6:48 AM
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I might get slammed for this but it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when the NRA and gun co's are pushing for more gun laws. Ok, so we already have background checks but not for all transactions.
It makes me cringe when they use anti key words like "common sense" etc when referring to any new or tweaked legislation.
I agree with some of the above comments that really nothing will stop all mass shootings,.some? Maybe, but it's a dangerous world, I don't believe the government will keep me safe. I'll take my chances on my own....oh that's right, I can't carry because, well because they say so, but they'll run yet another back ground check on me. Yep better make me wait ten days again too.
If they want to tweak the system to make the background checks work better than I guess but until they address the other imo more pressing issues (mental issues, prescription drugs, societal) I don't see any significant drop in mass shootings coming.
Seems like the NRA and gun co's trying to mitigate the damage but in doing so imo they're giving the anti's what they want, another small chunk and using their key words in the process.
Just doesn't sit well with me, maybe I'm wrong on this.
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Old 03-10-2018, 7:07 AM
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Originally Posted by humble servant View Post
I might get slammed for this but it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when the NRA and gun co's are pushing for more gun laws. Ok, so we already have background checks but not for all transactions.
It makes me cringe when they use anti key words like "common sense" etc when referring to any new or tweaked legislation.
I agree with some of the above comments that really nothing will stop all mass shootings,.some? Maybe, but it's a dangerous world, I don't believe the government will keep me safe. I'll take my chances on my own....oh that's right, I can't carry because, well because they say so, but they'll run yet another back ground check on me. Yep better make me wait ten days again too.
If they want to tweak the system to make the background checks work better than I guess but until they address the other imo more pressing issues (mental issues, prescription drugs, societal) I don't see any significant drop in mass shootings coming.
Seems like the NRA and gun co's trying to mitigate the damage but in doing so imo they're giving the anti's what they want, another small chunk and using their key words in the process.
Just doesn't sit well with me, maybe I'm wrong on this.


I feel the same way. The government could not protect those students in Parkland and supposedly now with the NICS fix this will some how change the calculation on whether another school shooting or mass shooting takes place again. I doubt it.

The next time, they’ll want to ban a class of firearms striving for more gun control with the belief this will stop these shootings, once and for all. Until places like Chicago and elsewhere are addressed and results can be shown; I have zero confidence in our government to protect me or my family.

When they ignore and side step crap like criminal illegals and protect and shelter these people and then justify their actions through social justice narration, all American lives are at risk.

Asking to detain someone the locals know is a bad guy, and the locals don’t, only to have this criminal go out and kill some one with 24 hrs is a disgrace and a crime in its self. This happen in Denver recently and in both cases Americans were killed.

This sickens me and these leftists and social justice warriors are culpable when they won’t reason and apply logic and actual data to solving these problems. Whenever has a leftist policy ever worked? Never!




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Old 03-10-2018, 7:15 AM
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I feel the same way. The government could not protect those students in Parkland and supposedly now with the NICS fix this will some how change the calculation on whether another school shooting or mass shooting takes place again. I doubt it.

The next time, they’ll want to ban a class of firearms striving for more gun control with the belief this will stop these shootings, once and for all. Until places like Chicago and elsewhere are addressed and results can be shown; I have zero confidence in our government to protect me or my family.

When they ignore and side step crap like criminal illegals and protect and shelter these people and then justify their actions through social justice narration, all American lives are at risk.

Asking to detain someone the locals know is a bad guy, and the locals don’t, only to have this criminal go out and kill some one with 24 hrs is a disgrace and a crime in its self. This happen in Denver recently and in both cases Americans were killed.

This sickens me and these leftists and social justice warriors are culpable when they won’t reason and apply logic and actual data to solving these problems. Whenever has a leftist policy ever worked? Never!




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Well said. Kate stienly comes to mind. Had the illegal that shot her been turned over to ICE she would be alive. Not to mention the cops gun not being properly stored and then stolen.
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Old 03-10-2018, 7:20 AM
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Old 03-10-2018, 8:24 AM
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Fix NICS should be linked to national reciprocity.
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Old 03-10-2018, 8:28 AM
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You're surprised? Right here in this very forum we have many who have laundry list of people they would happily exclude from being able to defend themselves.

Decisions made based on fear are almost always the wrong decision.
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Old 03-10-2018, 8:37 AM
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Fix NICS should be linked to national reciprocity.

Agree, it should be, and 3 weeks ago reciprocity was a 99% lock and considered a done deal.

But after Parkland, and after Trump’s sit down with DiFi and other anti gunners where he took it off the table (to their stunned amazement and glee), it’s pretty much dead now.


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Old 03-10-2018, 8:47 AM
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Just giving up more of your rights! Better stock up on bag of rocks.
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Old 03-10-2018, 9:17 AM
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Fix NICS should be linked to national reciprocity.
THIS.

That is compromise. You give some, you TAKE some.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:27 AM
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The fact that background checks are already required for certain sales is already an infringement of the 2A. There's absolutely no reason to create more infringements or make the current ones worse.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:05 AM
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You're surprised? Right here in this very forum we have many who have laundry list of people they would happily exclude from being able to defend themselves.

Decisions made based on fear are almost always the wrong decision.
Exactly.

Martha Stewart is a prohibited person. Not a violent criminal, not even violent, did her time based on SEC academics, and would be blocked from purchasing a firearm. Now whether she cares or not, is irrelevant.

If she got some basic-safety firearm training and bought a firearm, I would feel entirely safe around her as a fellow gun owner.

Now some might say that they are OK with that because she committed a felony, but I use her as the innocuous example where removing her 2nd Amendment rights serves no protective purpose.

The reason that is so important, is because on a worse scale, there is a movement supported by the Anti-2nd Amendment crowd to add "prohibiting reasons" to create wider blocks to purchasing firearms.

It's on a quiet crawl with attempts to add more each year, new legislation expanding the list of prohibited persons, and covertly, discreetly, being used in an incremental process and even sold to gun owners as a "good thing", especially in places like CA, to steal away the right to buy a firearm from many everyday people who nobody would ever fear as a threat even within their newly designated "prohibited" factor.

They are trying to include all sorts of non-violent misdemeanors, tax-delinquencies, unpaid parking ticket debt, or common life mistakes or mishaps on this list of prohibited reasons that would affect a large percentage of people who exude complete responsibility with their gun ownership.

Be very careful in supporting how this is "broadened" and as to why. You could find YOURSELF to eventually be a prohibited person, and YOU voted for it!

.

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Old 03-10-2018, 12:06 PM
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Be very careful in supporting how this is "broadened" and as to why. You could find YOURSELF to eventually be a prohibited person, and YOU voted for it!
.

We need a mic drop for statements like this.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:07 PM
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Glad I never gave them my money.
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Old 03-10-2018, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by humble servant View Post
I might get slammed for this but it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when the NRA and gun co's are pushing for more gun laws. Ok, so we already have background checks but not for all transactions.
It makes me cringe when they use anti key words like "common sense" etc when referring to any new or tweaked legislation.
I agree with some of the above comments that really nothing will stop all mass shootings,.some? Maybe, but it's a dangerous world, I don't believe the government will keep me safe. I'll take my chances on my own....oh that's right, I can't carry because, well because they say so, but they'll run yet another back ground check on me. Yep better make me wait ten days again too.
If they want to tweak the system to make the background checks work better than I guess but until they address the other imo more pressing issues (mental issues, prescription drugs, societal) I don't see any significant drop in mass shootings coming.
Seems like the NRA and gun co's trying to mitigate the damage but in doing so imo they're giving the anti's what they want, another small chunk and using their key words in the process.
Just doesn't sit well with me, maybe I'm wrong on this.
I agree.

Evil will always be with us. All the laws/government in the world, or no laws/government in the world will not change that. And a solution is not somewhere in the middle of those two either.

There isn't a solution, only the ability or lack of ability to defend oneself against it. I for one certainly want every means necessary to defend myself and my family against it.

Our constitution provides about the best opportunity for this to be realized. Part of that is because it protects the rights that we have as human beings and individuals to protect ourselves. I can stop someone from killing me and my family. A law can't. Anyone that decides to kill someone could care less about any law. Laws are only for the law-abiding.
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Old 03-10-2018, 2:13 PM
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Just giving up more of your rights! Better stock up on bag of rocks.


And a sling shot, too.


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Old 03-10-2018, 2:27 PM
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THE FIX NICS ACT: MYTH VS. FACT

Myth: The bill requires new types of information to be included in NICS.

Fact: Nothing in the bill changes what records are required to be uploaded to NICS. The bill just creates incentives for states and federal agencies to upload the records they are already required to upload under current law.

Myth: The bill will not stop criminals or those intent on doing harm from unlawfully acquiring rearms. It will only assure that more law-abiding gun owners become “prohibited persons” as states dump more records into NICS of non-adjudicated individuals, who have received no due process rights, no right to counsel, and have had no day in court.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act permits states to dump non-adjudicated individuals into the NICS system. The bill contains incentives to ensure states and federal agencies upload records that are already required to be included in the NICS system and would have ensured that the Virginia Tech, Charleston church, and Sutherland Springs shooters would have been agged in the NICS system and prevented their rearm purchases.

Myth: The bill will undo H.J. Res. 40 (passed under the Congressional Review Act) which overturned the Obama-era Social Security Gun Ban. The Obama ban stripped thousands of innocent Social Security recipients of their Second Amendment rights for something as simple as using a financial duciary, or being incorrectly diagnosed with a “mental disability.”

Fact: The Fix NICS Act does nothing to undo H.J.Res. 40. Current law requires both written and oral notice be given when facing a mental health adjudication. Nothing in the bill changes that.

Myth: The bill prevents citizens from having their day in court.

Fact: Under current law, individuals facing adjudication of their mental health are, in fact, given notice. Further, they are afforded the right to counsel and all decisions can be appealed to a federal court. The Fix NICS Act does not change this.

Myth: The bill incentivizes states to strip large numbers of law-abiding citizens of their Second Amendment rights, with no due process of law.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act prevents law-abiding citizens from gun ownership. The bill simply ensures that all relevant prohibiting records – which current law already requires
to be uploaded – will be placed into the NICS system, preventing convicted criminals and others who have gone through the justice system, from purchasing a rearm.

https://judiciary.house.gov/wp-conte...-MythvFact.pdf


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Old 03-10-2018, 2:38 PM
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The Mass Shooting You’ll Never Hear About

This occurred in CA. This is what should have happened in Parkland.

“Use the system in place. Use it correctly. Making threats is a crime. It’s grounds for investigating further and, if necessary, arresting someone for more than making a threat. Use that to end these horrible tragedies.

Don’t punish people who had nothing to do with it.”

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Old 03-10-2018, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CitaDeL View Post
Background checks do not prevent mass shootings.
This X 1000...

While I'm ambivalent to background checks in general - it's not an answer to anything really...

My concern is loose, broad, sweeping leniency in labeling someone unfit - which is what comes next... That leaves waaaaayyyyyy too much room for unjustified denial of rights.

I'm normally not a "not one inch" preacher... But every inch eventually turns into a mile and we're too far down the road to keep giving up more. The endzone is in sight for the antis... Time to play hard defense.

No more accommodation. None.
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Old 03-10-2018, 2:52 PM
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Work on enforcing existing laws - and acknowledging the benefits to self defense by means of firearms... Neither of those have happened...

If the above is enacted and doesn't work - then (and only then), let's talk about adding more layers.
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Old 03-10-2018, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeandSugar View Post
THE FIX NICS ACT: MYTH VS. FACT

Myth: The bill will not stop criminals or those intent on doing harm from unlawfully acquiring rearms. It will only assure that more law-abiding gun owners become “prohibited persons” as states dump more records into NICS of non-adjudicated individuals, who have received no due process rights, no right to counsel, and have had no day in court.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act permits states to dump non-adjudicated individuals into the NICS system. The bill contains incentives to ensure states and federal agencies upload records that are already required to be included in the NICS system and would have ensured that the Virginia Tech, Charleston church, and Sutherland Springs shooters would have been agged in the NICS system and prevented their rearm purchases.
I the issue is that we know the states currently do this . i.e. they put people in who have an overdue speeding ticket that's gone to warrant. The FixNICS then gives incentives to do this at a higher rate, and/or just chuck everyone onto the list for $$$.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeandSugar View Post

Myth: The bill prevents citizens from having their day in court.

Fact: Under current law, individuals facing adjudication of their mental health are, in fact, given notice. Further, they are afforded the right to counsel and all decisions can be appealed to a federal court. The Fix NICS Act does not change this.
This is true, assuming their NICS denial is accurate .. However, NICS has a lot of people incorrectly denied , so people lose their gun rights for a long period of time with out a day in court, simply because the database has a similar name to theirs.

Here's some numbers,

In 2010 76,142 initial denials , and 44 prosecuted, 13 convicted.

Either they really don't care about "lie and try" purchases, or the system doesn't work very well. If your wrongly denied in that 76k it takes some time to correct that issue.
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Old 03-10-2018, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeandSugar View Post
THE FIX NICS ACT: MYTH VS. FACT

Myth: The bill requires new types of information to be included in NICS.

Fact: Nothing in the bill changes what records are required to be uploaded to NICS. The bill just creates incentives for states and federal agencies to upload the records they are already required to upload under current law.

Myth: The bill will not stop criminals or those intent on doing harm from unlawfully acquiring rearms. It will only assure that more law-abiding gun owners become “prohibited persons” as states dump more records into NICS of non-adjudicated individuals, who have received no due process rights, no right to counsel, and have had no day in court.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act permits states to dump non-adjudicated individuals into the NICS system. The bill contains incentives to ensure states and federal agencies upload records that are already required to be included in the NICS system and would have ensured that the Virginia Tech, Charleston church, and Sutherland Springs shooters would have been agged in the NICS system and prevented their rearm purchases.

Myth: The bill will undo H.J. Res. 40 (passed under the Congressional Review Act) which overturned the Obama-era Social Security Gun Ban. The Obama ban stripped thousands of innocent Social Security recipients of their Second Amendment rights for something as simple as using a financial duciary, or being incorrectly diagnosed with a “mental disability.”

Fact: The Fix NICS Act does nothing to undo H.J.Res. 40. Current law requires both written and oral notice be given when facing a mental health adjudication. Nothing in the bill changes that.

Myth: The bill prevents citizens from having their day in court.

Fact: Under current law, individuals facing adjudication of their mental health are, in fact, given notice. Further, they are afforded the right to counsel and all decisions can be appealed to a federal court. The Fix NICS Act does not change this.

Myth: The bill incentivizes states to strip large numbers of law-abiding citizens of their Second Amendment rights, with no due process of law.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act prevents law-abiding citizens from gun ownership. The bill simply ensures that all relevant prohibiting records – which current law already requires
to be uploaded – will be placed into the NICS system, preventing convicted criminals and others who have gone through the justice system, from purchasing a rearm.

https://judiciary.house.gov/wp-conte...-MythvFact.pdf


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So these people need even more incentive to do their job on top of the reason of protecting the children as they currently claim.

Sounds greedy. Reciprocity should be included.


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Old 03-11-2018, 12:27 PM
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Advocating government subsidize more government to put people on a list that denies them their rights if just ****ed up.
The major problem with NICS is that to many people are incorrectly put into the system and wrongly denied. This bill does nothing to help those people while it seemingly will increase their numbers.
Is D.D. going to pay for atturney's fees for the people wrongly denied?
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeandSugar View Post
THE FIX NICS ACT: MYTH VS. FACT

Myth: The bill requires new types of information to be included in NICS.

Fact: Nothing in the bill changes what records are required to be uploaded to NICS. The bill just creates incentives for states and federal agencies to upload the records they are already required to upload under current law.

Myth: The bill will not stop criminals or those intent on doing harm from unlawfully acquiring rearms. It will only assure that more law-abiding gun owners become “prohibited persons” as states dump more records into NICS of non-adjudicated individuals, who have received no due process rights, no right to counsel, and have had no day in court.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act permits states to dump non-adjudicated individuals into the NICS system. The bill contains incentives to ensure states and federal agencies upload records that are already required to be included in the NICS system and would have ensured that the Virginia Tech, Charleston church, and Sutherland Springs shooters would have been agged in the NICS system and prevented their rearm purchases.

Myth: The bill will undo H.J. Res. 40 (passed under the Congressional Review Act) which overturned the Obama-era Social Security Gun Ban. The Obama ban stripped thousands of innocent Social Security recipients of their Second Amendment rights for something as simple as using a financial duciary, or being incorrectly diagnosed with a “mental disability.”

Fact: The Fix NICS Act does nothing to undo H.J.Res. 40. Current law requires both written and oral notice be given when facing a mental health adjudication. Nothing in the bill changes that.

Myth: The bill prevents citizens from having their day in court.

Fact: Under current law, individuals facing adjudication of their mental health are, in fact, given notice. Further, they are afforded the right to counsel and all decisions can be appealed to a federal court. The Fix NICS Act does not change this.

Myth: The bill incentivizes states to strip large numbers of law-abiding citizens of their Second Amendment rights, with no due process of law.

Fact: Nothing in the Fix NICS Act prevents law-abiding citizens from gun ownership. The bill simply ensures that all relevant prohibiting records – which current law already requires
to be uploaded – will be placed into the NICS system, preventing convicted criminals and others who have gone through the justice system, from purchasing a rearm.

https://judiciary.house.gov/wp-conte...-MythvFact.pdf


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ROFL @ Posting government propaganda as justification for supporting government encroachment on your rights.
Judiciary.house.gov if they said if they said government will keep you safe so they are going to repeal the 2A?
Please wake up.
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Old 03-11-2018, 1:27 PM
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ROFL @ Posting government propaganda as justification for supporting government encroachment on your rights.

Judiciary.house.gov if they said if they said government will keep you safe so they are going to repeal the 2A?

Please wake up.


Posted to show what is supposedly in the legislation. IMHO, no new legislation is needed. Bottom line: do your job with NICS. The problem I have with what is being proposed is the mental health aspect. Too vague. I would want very specific details. As it stands now, I have opposed it and said as much to my congressional representatives. The epic failures we have seen with Parkland, Sutherland Springs, the Charleston church shooting, and Fort Hood were failures on the part of government officials. Moreover, the LV shooting is another open book and questionable as to what government/hotel officials knew about him. The girlfriends role us still suspect and undetermined.


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Old 03-11-2018, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeandSugar View Post
Posted to show what is supposedly in the legislation. IMHO, no new legislation is needed. Bottom line: do your job with NICS. The problem I have with what is being proposed is the mental health aspect. Too vague. I would want very specific details. As it stands now, I have opposed it and said as much to my congressional representatives. The epic failures we have seen with Parkland, Sutherland Springs, the Charleston church shooting, and Fort Hood were failures on the part of government officials. Moreover, the LV shooting is another open book and questionable as to what government/hotel officials knew about him. The girlfriends role us still suspect and undetermined.


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Dont forget the Senate has its own version that further guts individual protections. Currently their is a maximum 3 day waiting period for the Government to deny the sale before the purchase is approved. In the Senate version of the Fix NICS the gut the 3 day rule. Government will have to approve the sale for it be deemed legal. Under a anti gun administration, government could shut down NICS and deny all future gun purchases. Suppose there is a lengthy government shut down, no guns will be legally purchased.
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Old 03-11-2018, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
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I the issue is that we know the states currently do this . i.e. they put people in who have an overdue speeding ticket that's gone to warrant. The FixNICS then gives incentives to do this at a higher rate, and/or just chuck everyone onto the list for $$$.

This is true, assuming their NICS denial is accurate .. However, NICS has a lot of people incorrectly denied , so people lose their gun rights for a long period of time with out a day in court, simply because the database has a similar name to theirs.

Here's some numbers,

In 2010 76,142 initial denials , and 44 prosecuted, 13 convicted.

Either they really don't care about "lie and try" purchases, or the system doesn't work very well. If your wrongly denied in that 76k it takes some time to correct that issue.
So the solution is to amend the FixNICS bill to require the FBI to process and resolve all claims of wrongful or incorrect denials within 90 days of the filling of the claim and to allow those wrongfully or incorrectly denied the right to recover their costs, attorney fees and damages of $1000.00 against any state that reports them to the NICS for a reason other than those for which they are required, under federal law, to report the person.
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Old 03-11-2018, 5:49 PM
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So the solution is to amend the FixNICS bill to require the FBI to process and resolve all claims of wrongful or incorrect denials within 90 days of the filling of the claim and to allow those wrongfully or incorrectly denied the right to recover their costs, attorney fees and damages of $1000.00 against any state that reports them to the NICS for a reason other than those for which they are required, under federal law, to report the person.
I don't know.. Some people die while waiting 3 days , longer and more people end up dead. The damages for a dead person doesn't make sense. Also damages would have to be higher cause it's a basic right denied.

Your think in the right direction which is the "fix" is not this bill.
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Old 03-11-2018, 8:30 PM
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Shame on DD. Never give an inch. There is no upside for DD except to hold the line.

What do they think - antis now gonna shop there? Silly.
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Old 03-11-2018, 9:30 PM
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Nazi party started with a list too!
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Old 03-12-2018, 1:19 PM
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Just got an email from DD stating he has heard us and he withdraws his support.

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Old 03-12-2018, 1:46 PM
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I also just received the e-mail from DD. Maybe he is getting some sense knocked into him.
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Old 03-12-2018, 1:47 PM
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Just got an email from DD stating he has heard us and he withdraws his support.

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same

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