*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

[DRM6000]

I didn't read what they teach that's different from the FS classes. I wonder if it's worth a trip this month.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Kind of bummed now with the new format if that's really how it is. Regretting booking two classes in a couple weeks.

[smoothy8500]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

Kind of bummed now with the new format if that's really how it is. Regretting booking two classes in a couple weeks.

Well, give us a report anyways. Sometimes individual's perception of things can be different.

[Mezcalfud]

I like it better. I like fluid vs ridgid. Signed up for pistol after the rifle experience and am excited.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by smoothy8500

Well, give us a report anyways. Sometimes individual's perception of things can be different.

Will do for sure!

Originally Posted by Mezcalfud

I like it better. I like fluid vs ridgid. Signed up for pistol after the rifle experience and am excited.

Fluid is good if you mean the instructor feeds of the vibe of the class, and if everyone is up to speed they can up the pace, add in some more challenging stuff, etc. Thats' how my private was when a couple buddies and I went out for a multi-day private. But not in the sense that the class is run loosely where they really don't care how good or bad the class is and are just there to let us put lead down range without really teaching students anything.

I want good, solid instruction and to actually learn something, and care less about round count. Like I mentioned before, If I want to just waste money and make noise, I can do that at a local range by myself. I'm paying for someone who knows a heck of a lot more than me to teach me and make me a better shooter, not just act as a range babysitter. Just hoping the classes aren't like that.

[Citizen_B]

You'll be fine. Take the class and I'm sure you'll get some value out of it.

I also like the new style better (with some caveats), particularly that they've adopted modern shooting techniques. The first caveat is because the program is rough around the edges, I don't think it's as efficient at teaching beginners than the FS highly polished program. That said it wouldn't stop me from taking newbies there. The second caveat, and this was a general critique applicable to both FS and PF, is that the specific instruction/corrections for me generally weren't that helpful. The instructors at FS/PF are professional and certainly competent, but I got more helpful individual instruction from instructors at some other schools. An important note on that is those instructors at other schools are masters at their craft and have a training fee that matches top tier instruction, so it's not really a fair comparison. I always saw FS as a place for me to take new shooters who get a great beginner program, and for me to get some guided reps in for improvement. The value was great and why I kept going and took others. I'm not sure where PF will fall on the value scale now. We'll see.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

What the heck is this? Ignatius Piazza, Founder's Message? Though the was gone and had no association with Prairie Fire...

Also wondering what the format will be when we're out there in a couple weeks for the 4-day classes, both pistol and rifle? They aren't even listed or available on the current class schedule.

[CheapBloke]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

What the heck is this? Ignatius Piazza, Founder's Message? Though the was gone and had no association with Prairie Fire...

Also wondering what the format will be when we're out there in a couple weeks for the 4-day classes, both pistol and rifle? They aren't even listed or available on the current class schedule.

Sucker born every minute.


Just taking a stab, as I have no clue in this.

What if bringing PF in, creating much negative hype within his own range club, etc. was for a purpose? To raise it's fees and restructure it's club for it's main goal while trying to maintain the more spendy members.

If he owns PF, and works behind the scenes, who is to blame and who isn't.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by CheapBloke

Sucker born every minute.


Just taking a stab, as I have no clue in this.

What if bringing PF in, creating much negative hype within his own range club, etc. was for a purpose? To raise it's fees and restructure it's club for it's main goal while trying to maintain the more spendy members.

If he owns PF, and works behind the scenes, who is to blame and who isn't.

Not sure I side with you on this one. PF has emphasized that Piazza has no affiliation many times and the new classes seem to have been restructured but really it?s just all confusing.

At $100 for the new legacy classes (that have been restructured and are all 2-days now) it?s hardly a bad Beal for now. Either way I?ll be calling them today and asking some questions. If it means no more PF for me after these classes that?s cool, too. $100 is peanuts compared to what other reputable places charge and can continue to go to those places (which I already do).

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I called and spoke to someone at Front Sight.

Piazza's name is still on the website in places and they are currently using the existing Front Sight website as a template while simultaneously creating an entire new website that will be all Prairie Fire and the former Front Sight website being used as a template will be removed.

They did admit that Piazza is listed in the court documents as a "consultant" and is receiving a lump sum of $7M, at $700,000/year and this was part of the bankruptcy negotiations, but were also very adamant that he has no say or input in anything whatsoever and it was simply a byproduct of the bankruptcy negotiations.

As far as class structure goes, the new format will be 2-day classes. For the Mainer of March where they are still offering 4-day classes the first two days will be based around the previous 2-day format (2-day Defensive handgun, 2-day Practical Rifle, 2-day tactical shotgun, etc), and days 3 & 4 will be more akin to the 2-day Skill Builder format. No more lectures in the classroom. Also, classes will be limited to 20 students with one single relay. This is what has allowed the round count to pretty much double compared to FS round counts.

Apparently all the classes for the remainder of the month are full, with the maximum of 20 students per class with the new format and there will only be one relay. No more being assigned with a partner that you are supposed to coach while your relay isn't shooting. I'm guessing this is one of the ways they were able to get the round count up so much.

I believe classes are still $100 day for former Front Sight Legacy members and $200 for non-Legacy members, but at some point in the future the daily fee for these classes is going to go up dramatically, rumored to be something like $250/day for Legacy Members and $300 for non-Legacy.non-Prairie Fire members, but these fees have not been decided or implemented yet.

They have also pushed back the grand opening from April to sometime this fall. The rationale for that was to be able to implement all the changes and upgrades to the property they have planned before the grand opening instead of opening next month when all of these changes and improvements haven't been completed or even started and have it just look like the old Front Sight but with a new name and nothing to show for it yet.

The previous tiered membership system that was in that proposal packet that was circulated during the bankruptcy negotiations was simply a template and they are revising what the four membership levels will be and what the prices of each will be.

I'm still excited to get out there and see what the new format/curriculum will be with the current and more modern techniques and changes implemented. For $100/day it's most likely going to be a decent value and was simply curious to see what they have done with the handgun and rifle classes. Moving forward, would I pay $250/day? Without taking the classes yet I can't say definitively, but can say with a fair amount of confidence most likely not. $100/day is perfectly acceptable for a foundational class, even when factoring in travel and lodging, but not for $250+ day, unless it's a higher level class, or something very specific to something I want to learn, or a class taught by someone well-known that I would like to take a class with, there's no chance I'll be paying those prices when I also have to factor in travel and lodging.

It will be interesting to see how things change once they increase the daily fees. The $100/day for Front Sight Legacy members for the foundational classes seemed like a great way to get former FS members out there to see the new place and show them what the new ownership has to offer, but I doubt many will pony up the $250/day. They may be losing quite a bit of future members who simply won't pay that, even if they can afford it. They simply won't be able to justify it.

[TeamAllen]

Thanks for the update Vinnie. No shotgun classes
These are the current classes posted on the schedule. $250/day
https://www.frontsight.com/Schedule.asp?View=List

Introductory Pistol - 1 Day
Foundational Pistol - 2 Days
Foundational Carbine - 2 Days
Developmental Pistol - 2 Days
Developmental Carbine - 2 Days

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by TeamAllen

Thanks for the update Vinnie. No shotgun classes
These are the current classes posted on the schedule. $250/day
https://www.frontsight.com/Schedule.asp?View=List

Introductory Pistol - 1 Day
Foundational Pistol - 2 Days
Foundational Carbine - 2 Days
Developmental Pistol - 2 Days
Developmental Carbine - 2 Days

I guess they already implemented the $250/day. Cant see this working in their favor.

[Mezcalfud]

I'm in the 2 day SB handgun (intermediate pistol now) April 7th and it is $100 a day. it is the last and only handgun still listed as a SB.

[DRM6000]

Terrible timing for me. I wanted to schedule a legacy class for this month and checked the website this morning and saw the change over. Oh, well.

[Citizen_B]

Vinnie, not sure where you got that screenshot, but the "Contact" page doesn't show IP founder message. Maybe it was a website typo and they rapidly fixed it.

Looks like they fully populated the spring/summer schedule with their $250/day classes, almost as much as FS did (maybe more). I seriously doubt they'll be able to fill all those classes at $250/day. Hope they have the reserve cash flow to stay open into the fall, and then even longer still until they get their "real" program rolling.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by Citizen_B

Vinnie, not sure where you got that screenshot, but the "Contact" page doesn't show IP founder message. Maybe it was a website typo and they rapidly fixed it.

Looks like they fully populated the spring/summer schedule with their $250/day classes, almost as much as FS did (maybe more). I seriously doubt they'll be able to fill all those classes at $250/day. Hope they have the reserve cash flow to stay open into the fall, and then even longer still until they get their "real" program rolling.

I wonder if they fixed it this morning after I called and told them about it.

EDIT: It's still there via this link: https://www.frontsight.com/pages/con...20gkDyndKYoupQ

[Jetjock]

I have been following this topic in the forum for some time and appreciate those contributing information so I am able to keep up with what is happening during this transition. As a legacy member I am still a little confused as to whether all classes after April 1st will be $250. per day for legacy members or if legacy members will get special pricing of $100. per day ??

[Mezcalfud]

Originally Posted by Jetjock

I have been following this topic in the forum for some time and appreciate those contributing information so I am able to keep up with what is happening during this transition. As a legacy member I am still a little confused as to whether all classes after April 1st will be $250. per day for legacy members or if legacy members will get special pricing of $100. per day ??

The site now has legacy classes and PF courses- likely the differentiator. Not a lot of legacy classes left with course dates!

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by Jetjock

I have been following this topic in the forum for some time and appreciate those contributing information so I am able to keep up with what is happening during this transition. As a legacy member I am still a little confused as to whether all classes after April 1st will be $250. per day for legacy members or if legacy members will get special pricing of $100. per day ??

I think they've already gone up to $250/day.

[XDJYo]

Originally Posted by Mezcalfud

The site now has legacy classes and PF courses- likely the differentiator. Not a lot of legacy classes left with course dates!

What?s a Legacy member and how much does it cost?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VolvoWrench]

Originally Posted by XDJYo

What?s a Legacy member and how much does it cost?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It means you can take all the Front Sight classes you want for life. I have several for sale, just PM me.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by VolvoWrench

It means you can take all the Front Sight classes you want for life. I have several for sale, just PM me.

All of those memberships and points, etc. you accumulated as a Front Sight member are gone. No more memberships to sell or transfer, etc.

Legacy means you were an existing Front Sight member before the bankruptcy and purchase of Prairie Fire and you get a 2-year promotional membership w/ Prairie Fire as a former Front Sight member. It doesn't matter what level Front Sight member you were, all existing members are now considered Legacy Members. The promotional Legacy membership waives the membership and fees only, not the daily fees. After that 2 years you either let it expire or pay for a Prairie Fire membership. Even with the 2-year Legacy membership you have to pay the daily fee for classes including the basic classes that will now be in a 2-day format. No more 4-day basic classes.

[VolvoWrench]

I'm just kidding you guys.

[ARFrog]

But..but...but, I still have Iggy bucks and I need a new pair of range 5.11s

image.jpg

[Mezcalfud]

Originally Posted by VolvoWrench

I'm just kidding you guys.

dude it's not funny, it's a rule-- https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=417385
baaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaa

too soon??

[VolvoWrench]

^^^ yeah, I guess they can pull that down. Bah ha ha ha.

[XDJYo]

Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz

All of those memberships and points, etc. you accumulated as a Front Sight member are gone. No more memberships to sell or transfer, etc.

Legacy means you were an existing Front Sight member before the bankruptcy and purchase of Prairie Fire and you get a 2-year promotional membership w/ Prairie Fire as a former Front Sight member. It doesn't matter what level Front Sight member you were, all existing members are now considered Legacy Members. The promotional Legacy membership waives the membership and fees only, not the daily fees. After that 2 years you either let it expire or pay for a Prairie Fire membership. Even with the 2-year Legacy membership you have to pay the daily fee for classes including the basic classes that will now be in a 2-day format. No more 4-day basic classes.

Cool, thanks for the explanation. I thought that that is what it was, but wanted to make sure.

But, do we at least get a sweet hat?

[VolvoWrench]

I have Front Sight hats for sale. Just PM me.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Just finished Day 1 of the 4-Day Defensive Handgun at Prairie Fire. Moving forward, I believe starting next month there will no longer be 4-day courses and instead will be broken down into to separate 2-day courses. They even told us that we will have the same instructors for the first two days and then get a new group of instructors for the last two days.

For the TLDR crowd: I like the new format.

For those who want the details keep reading.

I was a bit skeptical at first after reading some reports from those who have taken these newly structured classes, reading that they are looser and less structured, etc. I really did enjoy the old Front Sight way and was impressed at the organization and how scheduled it was, but the new format is better. For the brand new shooter I still think the old format is a fantastic way to ease a new shooter into it, but for someone who has experience and has a good fundamental skillset this new format will be much more enjoyable for you.

You're no longer in the chairs where the instructors are showing you a skill or technique and then go up to the line and fire controlled pairs, etc. Now everyone huddles up around the targets, the instructor does a demonstration, answers any questions and then you get to practicing that technique or drill. Gone are the days of everyone firing on command, etc. Once they give the command that the range is hot you are free to load your weapon and go at your own pace/speed. Each drill/technique/exercise consisted of a full magazine. Some drill consisted of two full mags. They consider a full mag to be 15 rounds, so for those with limited 10-round mags you'll be doing a LOT of mag changes and a lot of loading of your magazines. You no longer have to wait for everyone else to finish or slowed down by students who are having trouble or need assistance. You essentially go at your own pace.

Class size is max'd out at 20 students and there are three staff members; one Range Master and two additional instructors so you're actually getting more hands on time with an instructor compared to the old format where some classes had close to 40 students with the same number of staff.

Pretty much everything you were taught at Front Sight is gone. Everything is done from the "workspace"; no more mag checks after you load your weapon, No 5-count presentations, no more Weaver stance, no more isometric tension and no more trapping the trigger and then resetting it manually after each shot. The weapon resets the trigger on it's own and the old way of trapping the trigger and resetting is SLOOOOOW compared to getting off the trigger immediately after you get your shot off and then immediately prepping the trigger for your next shot. Replacing the isometric tension is more side to side pressure to control the firearm and your arms and stance to absorb recoil. The hardest old habit for me to break was un-leaning trapping the trigger, but by the end of the day it was all coming together.

Also, no more silhouette targets and no more taping the targets, ever! I like these targets because the individual targets get smaller and I swear that subconsciously it makes you shoot tighter groups.

On day 1 we only shot out to 10 yards and it focused on grip, shooting from the high ready, low ready and then shooting from the holster. The only thing that has carried over from the old format was the trigger reset drill where an instructor would come by and take a shot with your firearm to confirm the sights are correct, then confirm that you are aligning your sights properly, then they press the trigger while you align the sights, then press the trigger along with your finger on the trigger and then have you take a couple shots on your own, all while incorporating the new method of not trapping the trigger to the rear. They put a lot of emphasis on getting off that trigger fast and were very animate about no longer trapping the trigger.

Also no shooting from concealment in this class. They are developing separate courses for CCW/shooting from concealment including shooting from AIWB. In this class they are focusing more on teaching you combat-proven techniques that you can take away and incorporate into whatever you do on your own. For this reason I ditched the concealment garment and regular gun belt and broke out the battle belt and retention holster to get more practice with it.

Also no lectures at the beginning day 1 and no lectures at lunch or at the end of the day and no sales pitches. Gate opened at 7:30, you check-in with your ID at the booth and they had you a pen and a waiver. Fill it out and go straight to your range (no separate weapons inspection), hand the instructor your waiver and they will check your weapon and a box of ammo right there on the range. (I am not sure if they still have the 4lb trigger rule but will ask about that tomorrow.)

One thing that stuck with me the most was something our Range Master said. I'll try to paraphrase it..."Before we taught the technique and molded the student to the technique. Now we teach the technique and mold the technique to the student."

[beanz2]

Sounds interesting, Vinnie. How is the new fee structure?

Are the fees going to change after April 3rd?


ETA: As far as not trapping the trigger, do they encourage you to just quickly prep and reset the trigger, or do they want the finger completely off the trigger after each shot?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by beanz2

Sounds interesting, Vinnie. How is the new fee structure?

Are the fees going to change after April 3rd?


ETA: As far as not trapping the trigger, do they encourage you to just quickly prep and reset the trigger, or do they want the finger completely off the trigger after each shot?

Don't know about the fees. You'd have to contact them and ask.

Finger is completely off the trigger each shot then prep it for a potential next shot. It's not double tapping or slapping the trigger. You still have to have proper trigger control when pressing the trigger. You're just letting the gun reset the trigger for you instead or trapping it and resetting it yourself because that's just very slow and not very efficient.

[Mustard]

Dang, I kinda like the volley fire aspect of group training. Sounds cool

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Here's my target from Day 1. Like I mentioned prior, we only shot out to 10 yards max. This was also my first time ever using a red dot on a handgun. The small circle on the upper left was the last target I shot for the day, and this was after the instructor suggested changing something with my support hand grip, and it obviously worked. Overall I was happy with my performance never using a red dot before and never shooting with both eyes open before and only zeroing the red dot at home with a laser bore sight.

Also no more name tapes on your hat. Instead you write your name on your target.

[smoothy8500]

Thanks for the report. Looking forward to your final opinion at the end.

[steelciocc]

That’s the old Rifle Marksmanship target

[NorthBay Shooter]

Vinnie, nice write up. Thanks for taking the time to be thorough. It seems like the new structure is similar to most other classes. FS was always an outlier.

[mej16489]

All of the 'regimented' 4-day stuff was purely for the introductory classes at FS and they never cared if you didn't follow the FS technique.

I think that Front Sight's original mission and goals for introductory defensive gun training is dead. Which is a shame, noone did it better - especially on such a large scale.

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by mej16489

I think that Front Sight's original mission and goals for introductory defensive gun training is dead. Which is a shame, noone did it better - especially on such a large scale.

Are you writing about training?

Not sure if training, or the owner lying about FS's needs for major money for quite a few years.

If it's about the money, the collorary here is the number of very gullible FS aficionados.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Day 2...weather sucked. Was cold, windy and rained a LOT and very heavy at some times during the day.

Next we moved on to tactical and emergency reloads. Tactical reloads are now taught but taking a mag out of your pouch, indexing and then they showed us two different ways to remove the mag int he gun while retaining the new mag int he same hand. I was taught this method elsewhere recently as well. So you have the new mag in your hand in your middle, ring and pinky fingers and use your thumb and index finger to remove the mag in the gun, insert the new mag, give it a tug to ensure it's seated properly and then put the old mag in a pocket. Emergency reloads no longer involve doing a "mag check" first, otherwise are the same.

Class focused on a quick recap of the previous day then moved into malfunctions. they don't call them type I, II, III., etc. They only teach two types (what was previously called type I and Type III) but I apologize as I already forgot the terms they used to describe the two. They type III is more in line with what I've learned in other classes that were more "combat focused" I guess. Weapon comes back into your work space and you tap, rack. If that doesn't fix the issue (and you'll see that it didn't fix the issue because it's up in your workspace) you simply press the magazine release and forcefully rip out the magazine, retain it (I retain it with my pinky finger of my firing hand) then rack it several times, re-insert the mag you retained, charge the gun and get back on target.

Then we moved on to shooting single shots to multiple circles on our target, then multiple shots to two circles on our own target, starting with two shots each, then three shots each. Then we did a drill where we shoot 6 shots. Load the weapon with a mag with 5 rounds and when the gun is empty do an emergency reload and get one more shot off. Drill was supposed to get you used to managing recoil with shots of rapid succession while throwing in running the gun dry and having to reload and get another shot off.

After that we moved on to the ragged hole drill. It was pouring rain and this was only the second time in the several handgun classes I've taken previously at FS that I was able to rip a ragged hole. Was smaller than the size of a quarter. I am really liking the red dot!

After that we did something they called "clocking" which helped dial in your grip and presentation to the target and then more multiples. After lunch was more shooting from the holster, low ready and high ready and for the last half hour of the day we moved to an adjacent range and shot steel from 15 yards. First shooting multiples to one steel target, and then shooting singles to three steel targets and then two shots to each steel target for three targets.

Was a fun day and you could see a LOT of improvement from pretty much everyone in the class compared to day 1. There are a couple of older folks who had been coming to FS for a long time and old habits die hard and they are still shooting Weaver and doing all the older techniques, but for the most part all the other guys int he class who have taken many classes at FS were adopting all the new techniques and commenting on how it's hard to break old habits, but how much better and more consistently they are shooting. Even if someone has a flyer the thing is it seems like they aren't as drastically off target as they were with the old style of shooting they taught. The hardest habit to break still is trapping the trigger.

I asked a few of the other students who have been previous FS members and taken many classes what they thought of the new curriculum and new format. They all said they really like the curriculum and new format so far and were pleasantly surprised.

Tomorrow is Day 3 and we get a whole new group of instructors. I have no idea what it will be like. Someone has mentioned that days 3 and 4 could be more like the older 2-Day Skill Builder. Not sure if they will start incorporating turning targets or not, but that would be great if they did, but they haven't even introduced time pressure yet.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter

Vinnie, nice write up. Thanks for taking the time to be thorough. It seems like the new structure is similar to most other classes. FS was always an outlier.

I agree. Much more modern and what Iv'e experienced in other more "combat" based classes I've taken elsewhere. What ai like about those types of classes is the techniques that they use and teach have reasons and rationales for why they are the way they re with real-world examples to support why it's done that way, and when something new comes along that proves it's better that what was preciously taught they incorporate that into the curriculum.